| Author | Message | |||
     Jason Watson New User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 49 Registered: 07-2023 |
Hi there, Some of you may recall I was on a Silver Dawn path, unfortunately that trusted path decided not to sell. After exploring a few other directions I came back to the very start, and well, had myself a rush of blood. I’m not exactly sure what I have done, but I’m excited, have no buyers remorse, and feel very lucky if not a bit honoured. I’ve just bought myself a drowned 1957 Bentley in a 1000+ pieces; and think I have picked up a good buy if not a steal. I can understand many reading will be thinking this guy is a goner or at best delusional. However a project like this does offer achievement, pleasure, education, and well.....something to do. I’ll leave out all the hard work, skinned knuckles, frustration, swearing, and money for now as that will no doubt have its hearing in due course. I have never owned a Bentley or Rolls Royce, and have not mucked around with cars for 25 years or more. However from scrolling through countless publications at my father in-laws breakfast table, many conversations around RR and B, over time developed a secret crush for an S. Then years observing, listening, and admiring a man who bought a Rolls Royce in 50 boxes when it should have been 75, then gave it a magnificent second life a hint of belief was developed. He too did not have bottomless pockets but he had time, and done it all before so a seed of possibility was planted. He listened to my position, called a spade a spade, knows a thing or two about the marcs, and is supportive of my adventure. I’m planning on my only regret will be I wished I developed this interest 10 years ago, as my inspiration and sounding board is now 86. So after much thought, attending a few rallies of various old things, I realised enthusiast are just men, generally. Furthermore what they fuss over is just metal, nuts, bolts. It’s what they do with their time is the amazing part and where the magic lay. Their knowledge may be unique to them but not exclusive, and many are willing to share. It became apparent it’s almost a default human attribute to share the rewards and joy of such an interest. The companionship, knowledge sharing, problem solving, and joy is the personalised medium based around a common interest. As obvious as that seems to the ones who know, if you are not looking you don't see. Strangely enough my first question with such an undertaking is S, what does Bentley S stand for? I’ve been told it just followed R. I’m all ears if you know. My wife said its for BS, it's all ostentatious BS and what are you going to do with that.....plus I’m not going anywhere in it. Tuff start! But after some calm explanation, photos, and creating some imagery I have sold the project and created a vision I’m going to hang in the shed. “Lets take the Bentley”. So that’s the goal, a respectful beautifully restored daily driver where the wife says let's take the Bentley. Back to S.....just S, or Super, Sports, Series, Standard, Steel, Saloon, possibly Special? Rolls Royce have imaginative names like Ghost, something you see or do you emerging from the shadows of a developing motor industry. Phantom much the same but menacing the competition in a deliberate way. Wraith another ghost like image, or Silver Dawn emerging from the ashes of war for a brighter future. Silver Cloud not quite a magic carpet but a liking to softness, gentle, and wonder perhaps. All very subjective to my imagination. Where as poor ol adopted child Bentley just gets 3, 3-1/2, 4-1/4lt, Marks V to VI, R or just S and numbers 1 2 3. Perhaps its origins in names were never inspirational, so in the trueness of RR why change if not required. For my money however and B269EK, S is for Special. It started its days as something Special, then became more Special with Harold Radford “Countryman” additions. To bring it back from the dead will be Special enough. But to then go for outings on a beautiful weather’s day with the top open, the good wife by my side making use of those bench like seats, some lunch and goodies perhaps from the picnic table in the back, or an afternoon kip in the reclining body will certainly be Special. Let’s take the Bentley…..works for me. Guess it’s time to start the huge adventure to get it there. image of car just after 2011 floods.  | |||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 2341 Registered: 05-2012 |
Congratulations on your new purchase. I hope you will share with us details of your restoration as it progresses. Here's a link to a thread on the Silver Cloud Forum covering the restoration of a 1958 Cloud 1. It may have some entries of interest to you. http://au.rrforums.net/cgi-bin/forum/show.pl?tpc=17000&post=18833#POST18833 . | |||
| Martin Webster Experienced User Username: martin_webster Post Number: 51 Registered: 09-2018 |
Hello Jason and congratulations on your purchase. I would be very interested to know which Harold Radford additions were made to your S series? I have a brochure which illustrates the various alterations and accessories and also how much they were at the time none of them inexpensive by the way. ATB Martin | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 4228 Registered: 04-2003 |
Hi Jason, Welcome to your journey of restoration and may you have a successful and rewarding experience recreating your vehicle's past as a fully functional motor vehicle and its subsequent participation in your and your family's lives. As always, I am certain our valued members will share their experiences and knowledge with you as you restore your vehicle to regular use and enjoy the subsequent experience of classic motoring.  | |||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 543 Registered: 07-2018 |
The restoration of this will make an excellent thread Jason ! Define, "drowned" Bentley please, and in a thousand pieces, it looks complete in that photo, or is that when it was still all together in 2011 ? I'm going to assume that there is water damage to the interior. How's the wood ? David, I have a question about the cloth braded wiring, why did they use that ? There is none of it on my 51 MK VI Bentley and it's all very sound. I removed the fire-wall for restoration and all of the wires that came through it still had soft and pliable casings. | |||
| Jason Watson New User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 50 Registered: 07-2023 |
Thank you all for the welcoming to journey. I’ve been cleaning out the shed. Having a bit of a chuck out and making room, cleaning up the years of spider webs and dust. Bombing it for future spider control and putting out the ratsac. @ Geoff, yes the plan is to share the rebuild here. I feel imput from owners will be good for all. @ Martin, I would be very interested in a copy of that brochure if possible. As far as I can tell it has reclining seats, brandy and shot glass pockets in the doors, scotch stash the back of the seats, and table in the boot. It may have something in the rear seat centre consul but I’m not sure at present. It does not have the holes for the stool pins in the bumper overriders. To be honest I’m only aware of about 7 of the possible 40? options. I am blessed the seller has supplied copies of an owners manual, spare parts manual, a book of modifications by serial number, wiring diagram and much more. Then my father in-law produced a couple copies of the original Cloud and S sales brochure. I feel very lucky indeed. @ David, thanks. I trust the general section is where this thread belongs. I kind of hope it also brings a bit of traffic to the forum as well. I’ll probably join a local club but nothing like the internet for a club. @ Martin, 2011 Brisbane flooded. I don’t know the owner but met someone yesterday who does, so more dots to join yet. I am told in 2011 it was registered and driven semi regularly. The floods came and on the day the car did not start due to a flat battery. It must have been quite distressing for the owner let alone his house going under. It was under for 24 hours I believe. I was told to mid windscreen....yeeks. The car started being dried out almost immediately and the person I purchased it off, who acquired it within 10 days of being flooded completed the drying process doing an excellent job cleaning it along the way. He also had a vision for it and that involved a complete chassis up rebuild. So parts were bagged, labeled, and lubricated. Incredibly you would be forgiven if you overlooked the interior and woodwork ever going under water. The gear box went off for a full refurbishment. The chassis went off to have corrosion around the battery addressed, checked for trueness, any further corrosion addressed and painted in 2 pack. The motor went to a well known and trusted shop where it was stripped, flushed, rebored and had new pistons, rings, bearing, valves, and to be honest I can’t recall it all. But its all new and just needs assembling. The head has been done, a new radiator also comes with it so again I feel blessed as I will not have to address overheating issues in the future. The shock absorbers have been rebuilt. I’m picking the car up this week but I just could not keep it to myself any longer. Here a few pics of the chassis. A real credit the owner, when you see it in the flesh it has a paint job that rivals many cars body shine and finish.   . | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 4229 Registered: 04-2003 |
For the times when you stop and ask yourself "why am I doing this?" Remember the old tried and true proverb - "A journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step". You have taken that step and I am certain our forum members will follow your journey with interest and our dedicated Silver Dawn/Bentley fraternity will help with comments, advice and suggestions as you detail your restoration progress. I am certain you will be adding more knowledge here as you go forward with your restoration. . | |||
| Jason Watson Experienced User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 51 Registered: 07-2023 |
Thanks Dave, second step tomorrow. It all comes home. Here's a Q, what type of spanners do I need to work on an S. I'm a metric guy but figure it wont be that. Oh and I have to thank Geoff W for the link. Apart from bringing home the enormity of such an undertaking, it sure produced some gems of knowledge and links. I have been asked by a few will it be getting a new harness. Currently I'm thinking yes. | |||
| Jason Watson Experienced User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 52 Registered: 07-2023 |
Courtesy of the FIL who gave me these docs, I though I better scan them for my own records but also allows to share. Road tests from Auto magazines of the time, which still are today. Plus the sales brochure of the time.
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| Jason Watson Experienced User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 53 Registered: 07-2023 |
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| Jason Watson Experienced User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 54 Registered: 07-2023 |
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| Jason Watson Experienced User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 55 Registered: 07-2023 |
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| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 851 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hi Jason, The effort in rebuilding this car will be well repaid when you drive it. I rate them as the best car ever produced by Crewe. I have owned my 1956 S1 for 18 years. My Wife rates the car above our Shadow 1 and my Mulsanne S and her Bentley8. My car is non power steering and on radial tyres so heavy to manoeuvre but on the move superbly weighted. Mark | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 4230 Registered: 04-2003 |
Jason, Sets of Metrinch, BA and Whitworth sockets, open and ring spanners are useful given the usual British specification [BA and Whitworth] fasteners used on Rolls Royce and Bentley vehicles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Association_screw_threads I have found the Metrinch tools very useful in undoing "butchered" fasteners where the corners have been "rounded off" from past removal problems - the fact the Metrinch tools work on the flats on the fastener head rather than the corners facilitates removal of otherwise difficult-to-remove fasteners. https://www.tridon.com.au/products/Metrinch | |||
| Jason Watson Experienced User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 56 Registered: 07-2023 |
Well B269EK arrived at the Watson estate yesterday. Opening the account with 14.5 hours attention and 1 strike in the skinned knuckle log. 2 x 160km return trips were made with a third planned today to pick up bumper bars, exhaust, brake lines and tyres. All went reasonably well considering hard surfaces, space, and forklifts are available at load end, however requires some imagination at the unload end of grass, limited space, and no forklifts. Thankfully my teenage son and a few mates were hanging around as its school holidays. Amazing how heavy a gear box or block is.    A credit to the seller and lovely generous bloke as well. The work alone in replacing the chassis cross member skid plate is amazing.  | |||
| Jason Watson Experienced User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 57 Registered: 07-2023 |
I now have the amazing honour of completing this build. As you can see, or hope you can, my task is made a little easier as most parts have been cleaned, bead blasted and primed.    First task after my finger heals will be put the diff back together and hang the suspension. Get the chassis rolling before starting to put the motor together. In the mean time I have a mountain of images and reading to work through. I have no idea how a diff goes back but with the service and parts manuals plus google I'm feeling ok about it.   . | |||
| Jason Watson Experienced User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 58 Registered: 07-2023 |
As you can see not all goes to plan. The body which is rather weighty was mounted on a fairly light trolly to roll it around the workshop. Not really made to travel 80km bouncing on a car trailer. We had some adjustments along the way, and thankfully the skinned knuckle event was only 8km from home and almost done. But low a behold the trolly wheel blew out as B269EK was putting its bum into the new abode. Just testing the surrounds I guess. So with a sledge hammer we straightened the frame, then poked a crow bar into the frame making an axle so to speak, and in it rolled. Small I agree, but Henry Royce started his first work in a small garage upon a lane way. Good enough for Henry, good enough for me.     . | |||
| Jason Watson Experienced User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 59 Registered: 07-2023 |
@ Martin W I’ve been able to have a bit of a better look at the Radford Countryman additions for the fishin, huntin, romancin, alcoholic enthusiast. I have a publication that came with the car RR SC1 and BS1 50 years by DB Bassoli and BL King. It’s a great effort to track whats known about the 1955-1958 era of these cars, however sadly and perhaps expectedly, not as comprehensive as wanted. The book suggests 35 C1 and 37 S1 went to Radford from Crewe, However B269EK is not one of them, so perhaps Sir Carol Reed changed his mind soon after delivery. Going on this book I have 13 options with 5 sub specifications of those options to be confirmed. Interestingly though I have a mirror on the trunk liner that pulls down to complement the morning shave, or perhaps for madam or mistress to fix her hair. The book has no mention in the list but can't see anyone els fitting this other than Radford. Its possible there may be other modifications in the boot other than the table, just hard to tell when there is nothing in the boot currently. on this car Front seats - camping body style with armrest in each seat. Cabinets - in rear of front seats under existing tables. (sub specification tbc) Rear seats - 60-40 camping body style Centre arm rest rear - fitted to the 60 side. Folds out again with swivel mirror. Provisions for cigarette case, note book, pen, comb or tooth brush. Picnic Table - boot mounted. Not sure yet if it’s the grand stand variant. Lockers - R and L front doors (sub specification tbc) I have seen something that holds many round bottles so think its the mineral water rack. Lockers - R and L rear doors (sub specification tbc) Sunglass case and mirror - sun visor passenger side Pouch - sun visor drivers side Ventilator windows - rear door quarter glasses Webasto Sun Roof Electric aerial - I presume as centre windscreen roof aerial is removed for sun roof. Winking/parking lights - a small amber/red light on the upper B pillar. Unfortunately all the glasses, flasks, bottles, thermos, first aid kit, sewing kit, or what other small detail that filled all these lockers is no longer. Perhaps countless hours and years of sniffing around may find something. What would really work for me is the espresso coffee percolator but who knows what was in the left front door. | |||
| ChristopherCarnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 35.176.108.102 |
Jason, The previous model was the R Type, so the new model was named "S" type, but the only one with a number is S3, as was the R-R version, Silver Cloud 111. All of the sockets and spanners are the AF, across flats (of the hex heads) and have the (US) unified fine threads. Except for bolts and screws below 1/4" and they are 2BA. British Association. Download a copy of both the Workshop Manual and the Parts List, from the Library. You will need them. After your first aid class, use the contents of the swear box, to buy a copy of James Taylor,s excellent book. Apart from your sore looking split finger, you have some pain on,mate. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Jason Watson Experienced User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 60 Registered: 07-2023 |
Thanks Christopher, is this the book?  Reckon that will make an awesome Christmas present, thank you. Yes your right, its not all beer and skittles. A 70 year old car that has been under water will have its problems. Let alone on top of age, origin, and what owners have done. Just because it was an expansive car in its day, and no mater how much money one has, people do what they do. There will be wins and losses with this venture. I am fortunate the car came with an office set and a workshop set of original manuals and parts list can you believe. Still, I reckon a print out of the days job will suffice. Are we sure the tools are AF? Previous post has suggested BSW which I bought a set of yesterday. Not the end of the world as they are old school. Kind of figured metal was better back when and a correctly fitted tool to an un-burred head should do nicely. Here is some pain, a quick rummage through the diff yesterday has proven the diff has not been preserved as well as one would have hoped. In my world with RRs diff reputation an observation of the diff oil and perhaps a change or two would have sufficed for a flooded car with 60k mile on it. However a decision was made by the previous owner who was on a concourse path, to pull it apart and replace everything. Perhaps it was simply overlooked, just in my world it could have done with a bit more oil splashed over the bearings and pinion in the process if it was going to sit around. I see a few draw backs to the concourse path, apart from ending up with a car that in almost every cases will never be capable of returning the money spent on it, it can lead to replacing everything for no reason. Each to their own and no axe to grind either way. I’m seeking advice on possibilities. | |||
| NormanGeeson Unregistered guest Posted From: 81.99.74.184 |
Jason "However B269EK is not one of them, so perhaps Sir Carol Reed changed his mind soon after delivery" I am afraid you are in error. This chassis is and was one of the last block of 37 chassis to have designed modifications by Radford. All the specification build sheets note Radford requirements on production. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Jason Watson Experienced User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 61 Registered: 07-2023 |
Ahh thank you Norman. Happy to be wrong, I do a lot of it. The FIL is getting a build sheet for me as he is a member of where you can get them. Already I have seen evidence of a green original interior but its currently light grey. Its also not velvet green/shell grey anymore. Think it will see a green interior again though, I just love them. It seems to me record are not complete all over the place, possibly no matter who recorded them. Attempts are made to have correct records, but people are people and things get misplace, forgotten, or lost. Parts are used up or withdrawn early, and people also do what they do. This book is no doubt a best effort but also states the huge amount of data drawn and collated is difficult and daunting. Then people go and sell and time never stops. Its funny where it takes you though. Looking at my diff I can't say I'm chuffed with how it looks. I need to buy a welder at some point, just pondering if I do so now to fix up this mess and file it back it to better times.   . | |||
| Martin Webster Experienced User Username: martin_webster Post Number: 52 Registered: 09-2018 |
Jason, When I get a moment I will dig out the Radford brochure and attempt to send you a copy. Thank you for sending the original specifications the invoice for the extras would have been eye watering as you will see in due course. ATB Martin | |||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 159 Registered: 02-2015 |
Jason I am intrigued by your cover of the book " Original Rolls-Royce & Bentley 1946-65" I have a copy of the book, but it has a completely different cover. Does anyone know what the difference is between these versions/editions?  | |||
| Jason Watson Experienced User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 62 Registered: 07-2023 |
John, I believe it's the latest version printed in 2008 superseding the previous. The red open top edition was 1999. I imagine the cover is is perhaps the biggest change. As usual prices vary from sensible to stupid, I have one one the way. $60 AU brand new delivered. | |||
| ChristopherCarnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 13.42.104.45 |
Jason, It is the book, and a very well researched one, even if it resembles a "coffee table" type, a snip at around £30. If you consult page A 13 of the Workshop Manual, you will see what the threads are. All the R-R & B cars, up to May 1955 used BSF threads, with only BSW in rare exceptions. After 1955, they are all apart from the 2BA, UNF, the SAE unified fine, identified as A.F. across flats, not "American Fine", even if they are. The BSF ones are identified by the bolt diameter. A bit confusing, e.g. the S1 3/8" diameter con rod bolts, have a 9/16" A.F. nut. The diff, pinion drive flange nut is 1 1/2 inch AF. The diff has large castellated "nuts", left hand threads. Don,t waste time on the cosmetic welding, the base is used for jacking up. Apart from bearings and oil seals and a very expensive gear set, there are no spare parts. Other than the crown wheel side bearing, the bearings are rare specials,the double roller pinion nose bearing retails at nearly £500, at the big shops, the correct hide oil seals are nearly £100. The exploded diagrams in the latest parts list are very good for identifying the parts and where they fit. but the job is not a "monkey see, monkey do", job. I rebuilt a slightly damaged S1 Continental differential for Padgett Motors last week so I will send pictures via David. C. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| ChristopherCarnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 13.42.104.45 |
Just the dust cover photo John. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Jason Watson Experienced User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 63 Registered: 07-2023 |
Thanks Christopher, I have a steep learning curb and have done a lot of reading but managed to miss the bolt and nut spec. I have discovered however the show is AF as your suggested, and managed to pick up a few already. Facebook "marketplace" is at least good for something even if the social media side isn't. As much as I'd like to go out and drop $1000 on tools I figured a good set of middle upper reputable branded second hand should work fine on nuts and bolts if they are in good nick. The whits are back on the market. The good news is the crown and pinion can be lapped, so that is going to save a few bob. The average news is the pinion nose has some brinelling. So waiting to see if a more suitably priced and readily available bearing can be fitted to a sleeve. I’m hopeful the two Timkin carrier bearings can be sourced. I have found them but need to check a letter ranking as there is $500 each in difference. I’m also waiting to see if the upper and lower pinion bearings can be alternatively sourced. It’s weird the numbers on these bearing turn up nothing, similar the the replacements from the big retailers, it’s like a conspiracy for RR and B parts with prices that should see them doing something far more important than what they are. We are talking 150HP here through an open diff, not 700+. I have a price for a second hand diff centre as a yard stick for pricing. Of course that would need disassembling for investigation but good to know its there. I guess for what its worth there is some comfort 2/3 of these cars are no longer on the road. But it’s also not surprising owners don’’t keep the car pristine with the price of parts. Is there an alternative to the hide oil seal? $100+ is a bit out there, would think $25 more appropriate. I know Land Rover specked this felt thing that leaked not long after new. Someone worked out a Corteco twin lipped convention seal did the job and the diff never leaked again. Not 100% original but seems somethings are worth improving, especially if it stops oil from contaminating the brake. |
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