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Ralph C Brooks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 71.105.58.128
Posted on Friday, 20 May, 2005 - 09:54:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Now rhat summer is here (in the desert) predictably the AC in my SWII quit. About a month ago. the system was checked for leaks, pumped down and refilled with R138A and oil. Worked fine until a week ago, then quit. No power to the compressor clutch or blowers. Drove to LA across the desert and had a relay replaced. Now have blowers and the compressor is spinning, but I get nothing but HOT air in any switch position. Where do I go from here? Please help!
Cheers, Ralph LRL40634
n6yry@verizon.net



(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 460
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 20 May, 2005 - 13:00:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ralph,

I suspect you have lost the gas charge for some reason - your local GM/AC-Delco airconditioning specialist should be able to sort this problem out without any difficulties.

Unless you have a vacuum pump and test gauges, diagnosis is very difficult.
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whunter
Prolific User
Username: whunter

Post Number: 144
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, 20 May, 2005 - 13:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

R134A, R138A and PAG oil are not compatible with R12 seals, compressor, accumulator, expansion valve, hoses or O rings , it eats R12 rubber.

Converting correctly to the new refrigerants is expensive.

The condenser size is wrong for 134A or 138A to work as it should.

You now have a contaminated system.
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Bill Coburn
Grand Master
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 424
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 21 May, 2005 - 01:12:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Whoa!!! Doom and gloom. Let's be a bit more helpful. I know nothing about air conditioning and rely totally on a competent service person. I have taken I imagine some 15 RRs and Bs to him and of those half would need conversion to the 'new gas'. As to nomenclature I don't even try to remember the terms. All he ever needs seems to be a new receiver drier and he sometime changes 'O' rings somewhere in the sytem. He has to do it right otherwise the law descends on him and draws his testicles out slowly until they reach his knees. Then I get to have a go at him!!! As to cost it seems quite reasonable here.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 781
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 21 May, 2005 - 02:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I can confirm Bill C's comments. Our T-Series was converted, if you can even call it that, about 12 years ago.

No drama.

All it needed was a new receiver-drier for about $50, new oil and the standard recharging with the latest gas. The receiver-drier is not Crewe-specific, and any specialist will have one and all the specifications for your car. The job is bog routine for these guys. Later cars have a Valve in Receiver or Dessicator Bag, but the same applies: only a new element is required. There has never been a compatibility issue with hoses or seals.

As the old gas is a classified poison, only let an aircon specialist do the job or you run the risk of a very hefty fine otherwise. Usually the aircon people are also autoelectricians. Don't even think of going to a general workshop or dealer for this one.

RT.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 782
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 21 May, 2005 - 02:45:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This is the receiver-drier:



And the compressor should be labelled with an official sticker to verify the gas used:

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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 414
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Saturday, 21 May, 2005 - 04:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Whunter,just had my air con R12 system sorted now with the R13a gas no big job,a kit of valves then full evacuation and removal of old gas moisture etc.
New receiver/drier, universal POA oil and PAG oil pressure test and regassing R134a.
Thermal fuse.
I have been assured that all the system seals etc are not contaminated because of the old ozone destroyer gas R12.

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whunter
Prolific User
Username: whunter

Post Number: 145
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, 21 May, 2005 - 07:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Sorry fellows.
My statements are engineering fact.
Any assurance to the contrary is a lie for profit.
The rubber in an R12 system is not compatible with PAG oil, R134A or R138A.

The system will "function" at reduced efficiency for an unknown duration with contaminated PAG/mineral oil, R134A or R138A.
Restoration or repair of the contaminated system is expensive, time consuming and nasty.
The only cleaner that will remove the acid/sludge is "acetone".
Acetone will salvage evaporator and condenser, but all other system parts must be replaced with new.

This is as stated; engineering fact.
I have run automotive climate control systems on test stands, and done post test tear down analysis.
I wish you where correct, but thermal chemical engineering, the dynamics of heat transfer and thermal lubricity fact is not open to debate.

(Gadzooks; after reading this post, please be assured that nothing here is in any way personal).
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 783
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 21 May, 2005 - 10:08:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

WH: your statements are not very funny this time. Stop this misinformation please.
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Gordon Norris
Prolific User
Username: crewes_missile

Post Number: 184
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, 21 May, 2005 - 10:33:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I tend to agree with Bill; Too much doom and gloom. No offence whunter, but I think you are overstating the case. The RR/B service manual instructions for conversion from R12 to R134a state the rubber 'O' rings ARE compatible unless the seal is broken, in which case they have to be replaced (which you would anyway). This is neither difficult nor messy, there being only about a dozen 'O' rings in the system at most. You are correct PAG oil (polyol alkaline glycol) should NOT be used in conversions, (but is used in factory fitted systems), and a polyol ester based oil should be used instead. The compressor does not need changing, but reciever dryer does (again, this is routine if the system is opened to the air anyway). Expansion valve is compatible, but changing to a 134a specific valve gives slightly better performance, but is not essential. As they tend to stick it's probably wise to change it if not done for awhile. Like a thermostat, they should be a routine service item.

All the above is routine and a straightforward job for these guys, not messy or expensive.


GN.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 461
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 21 May, 2005 - 12:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Gentlemen,

Before we start practicing stepping 50 paces to meet at dawn; perhaps all of you are right but coming from different perspectives ranging from strict liability to economic practicality including constraints imposed by where you live.

The following link supports WHunter's viewpoint:

http://www.sanden.com/support/RETRO.html

The following link supports Richard's viewpoint:

http://home.modemss.brisnet.org.au/~leonp/ma/index.html#consider

The following link is also useful and I recall one of their newsletters having considerable information on the R12/R134A conversion when I posted a response about this subject on the US RROC Open Forum several years ago:

http://www.vasa.org.au/content/refriggas/index.php

The following data sheets from:www.ingram.com.au may also be of interest.

application/pdfdatasheet I
service report_edition_1.pdf (326.3 k)


application/pdfdatasheet II
service report_edition_2.pdf (208.0 k)


Let the debate continue as we will all benefit.

(Message edited by david_gore on May 21, 2005)
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Gordon Norris
Prolific User
Username: crewes_missile

Post Number: 185
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, 21 May, 2005 - 13:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,
With all due respect, your first (sanden) link does NOT support whunter's position. He maintained the compressor and even the hoses were not compatible with R134a, which is not true, and that the process was complex, messy and expensive, which is also not true. The Sanden link supports the RR/B technical position, which one would expect, which I summarised above, with the exceptions: 1/RR/B do not recommend PAG oil in retrofits, but PE oil. 2/ Sanden say extra condensor capacity may be needed...this is not an issue on RR/B's due to excess capacity to start with. The Sanden link does say to follow the original vehicle manufacturers retrofitting recommendations, which are pretty simple and concise on TSD 6000.

I rest my case, y'honour... (I think I've been spending too much time around lawyers..)
Let the games begin....
Cheers,
GN.
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Larry Halpert
Prolific User
Username: larry_halpert

Post Number: 69
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Saturday, 21 May, 2005 - 14:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

I was trying to read the label on your Wynn reciever drier to note the part number, but can't. What's the number? I know these dryers are not crewe specific, but yours is installed and working reliably so can be recommended.

Is this the same reciever dryer used in the 20,000 series cars?

Larry
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 415
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Saturday, 21 May, 2005 - 18:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ralph,to get the ball rolling with regard to your problem.
As the compressor is running i am assuming the clutch is not stuck and that the thermal link is ok,that hopefully means some if not all the gas is still in the system so you could check that the compressor output pipe is first running cold if icey looking that is good enough do not touch "frost burn" then see if the gas has bubbles in the top reciever sight glass.
Do this first, unless others have a better method without seeing the car for testing with the aircon
service unit.
It is a complexed system more after your test.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 784
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 22 May, 2005 - 05:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Larry,

I shall check the invoice and the receiver-drier, named filter-receiver in the Wynn's label. It also shows an install-by year of 1995: from memory, we had the receiver replaced an the gas changed to R134a in 1992.

Note that it is clearly marked as suitable for R12 and R134a, giving even more credence to the simplicity of a change from R12.

I must say that the arctic cabin possibilites in mid Summer show absolutely no loss of aircon performance in our T-Series and Turbo R after changing gas types. Also, after over a decade with our T, reliability cannot be criticised..

RT.

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Larry Halpert
Prolific User
Username: larry_halpert

Post Number: 70
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Sunday, 22 May, 2005 - 14:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard,

Is this the same you put on your Turbo R? I believe you have a Sanden compressor. Does it say anything on that car's receiver dryer, or any brand or part number details from when you replaced it in converting to R134?

Larry
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Bill Coburn
Grand Master
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 425
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 22 May, 2005 - 16:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Larry and Richard

I may be wrong but when I put a car in for air conditioning repairs etc I sometimes get a call for the receiver drier. The Factory issue runs up to 6 times the cost of a generic item! I get on to an air conditioner travelling service mob in Sydney or Melbourne that does RRs and Bs for the dealers and they kindly send me a generic item. They seem to know what fits and what works. If you go to a wholesaler they look up books and scratch various parts of their anatomy and finally look blank. My point is that the items supplied are generic, as far as I can remember have no brand on them and work perfectly. I fear therefore that we are chasing alternatives for something as common as a three pin electrical plug.
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Larry Halpert
Prolific User
Username: larry_halpert

Post Number: 71
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Sunday, 22 May, 2005 - 18:07:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Actually, there is a 3 pin electrical plug on my '89 spur receiver drier. (maybe a 2 pin). After looking at it, and then looking it up, it is to turn on the auxillary fans when the system pressure gets too high.

If it is a drier that was not just produced for Crewe with this switch attached, I still wonder what other one has these specs.

If it is Crewe specific because of this switch, introcar has them for the silly amount of 79, which is about $155 US.

I'm also looking into this because my A/C system loses freon because of leaky hose fittings, so I will also need to replace the drier.

Classic Auto Air in Florida will redo my hoses (at better than NY prices), but it seems that I will have to take advantage of their service of cutting open my original drier and replacing the dessicant with the new XH9 dessicant that is compatible with both R12, OR R134A should I decide to convert, then welding it closed.

For this they charge about $65 US.

Larry

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Larry Halpert
Prolific User
Username: larry_halpert

Post Number: 72
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Sunday, 22 May, 2005 - 18:31:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

And the pic:
20,000+ series receiver drier & switch
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 416
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 25 May, 2005 - 03:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Silence from Ralph!
So talking about going from R12 to 134a once the old R12 has been sucked out nitrogen is added to a pressure of 150lbs then checked for pressure drop in the system,if ok then "moving with the times" to the magic fluid to netralise the old R12 gas system and rejuvenate the "o" rings etc ready for the new 134a with the dye added for further checks later if needed.
Once the system is charged with oil gas and if the thermal fuse SS2 or fuse SS1 are ok the system can be run and checked for any leaks with the ultraviolet light.
Much more to do if operating faults found in service check.
Beware of some RR Specialists they will try to rip you off with new this and that with a hefty bill at the end!
Far better to go to the small independent garage that specialise with the aircon systems.
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whunter
Prolific User
Username: whunter

Post Number: 146
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, 26 May, 2005 - 06:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am trying to follow this thread during road trip.
Computer access is limited and my time is tight.
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Ralph C Brooks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 71.105.58.128
Posted on Wednesday, 25 May, 2005 - 23:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Problem(s)turnrd out to be;
Low gas (topped up in January
Faulty relay - nw bypassed, but must still be sorted out.
Weak compressor. Replaced along with new drier and expansion valve; cost US4800.
R134A is now US$30/lb - must be the high cost of oil.
More on the relay/electrical problems later. Repairs (not yet complete although I do have 50F air from the vents entailed a 6 hour trip to LA and 3 trips to the local mechanic.
Also two 6hour waits while the mechanics fiddled.
Regards and thabks for the help,
Ralph, LRL40634.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Larry Halpert
Prolific User
Username: larry_halpert

Post Number: 73
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Thursday, 26 May, 2005 - 19:20:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The expansion valve is about $40 US, The drier is $50-$60 US, and the compressor is about $300-$350 US equaling about $400-$450 US. That along with the charge and bypassing the relay for a total of $480 US seems like a fair deal.

Larry