| Author | Message | ||
     Jeff McCarthy Frequent User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 630 Registered: 05-2007 |
I'm about to top up my radiator because the coolant is low. I don't want to do a full flush because I'm about to drive to Melbourne for a full service (and a lot of preventative maintenance) in a few days. Can anyone tell me the name/number of a coolant brand I can nip down to Autobarn/Supercheap/Repco and just pick off the shelf? Yes, I have read all the posts over the years about what not to buy - I'm looking for something that we know is safe. Cheers, Jeff | ||
| Mike Thompson Frequent User Username: vroomrr Post Number: 877 Registered: 04-2019 |
If you are doing a flush soon you could just add water for now. | ||
| Jeff McCarthy Frequent User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 631 Registered: 05-2007 |
Unfortunately it's a 200 mile trip and the coolant is way past its use by date so I don't want to risk it overheating. I'll just have to try to find some green ethylene glycol stuff with a proper contents label. Most of them don't seem to be very clear about what's in the bottle. | ||
| Alan Dibley Frequent User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 205 Registered: 10-2009 |
One way to check the right stuff is to look for "ethylene glycol" or "silicate" or "IAT" or "Inorganic Acid Technology" or "suitable for cars built before 1996" (approx) on the label among the fine print. Alan D. | ||
| Graham Phillips Experienced User Username: playtime Post Number: 152 Registered: 03-2019 |
G'day everyone,.... Seriously, just add distilled water,... The coolant you have in there being past its date isn't going to stop working and cooling down. Question is, why don't you have some spare on hand in our spares supplies? Will part of that 'full service' include a coolant system flush and change? If so, get them to give you a litre or two for top-ups as needed. Graham. | ||
| Mike Thompson Frequent User Username: vroomrr Post Number: 878 Registered: 04-2019 |
The coolant only protects your engine from corrosion, prevent scales from building up, and raises the boiling point of the engine coolant a bit. Many have said Rolls have very good coolant systems. And it is still cold there, if the snow on the car is any indication. You need to know what coolant you have before you start dumping something in there or it can congeal and gum up the system and cost a lot of money to fix. I would just add water to be safe. | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Frequent User Username: wraithman Post Number: 504 Registered: 11-2017 |
The only "water" to add is distilled water, even for a top off. You want no added minerals. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2917 Registered: 06-2009 |
Robert, This is "the received wisdom" that a great many manufacturers of coolants say is absolutely not so. It is expected that coolants will be used with "readily available" water and across a wide spectrum of conditions. I've done lots of research on this, and the best "official document" I've found that explains it simply is this one: https://drive.google.com/open?id=175gEF-ZXFbU6jux8zAISCp7k7JJXJbNZ See specifically the "Raw Water Quality" section and, even more specifically, the paragraph that starts with the words, "Soft water." Brian, who has tried, to no avail to get people to understand that coolant formulations readily available these days are fine for our cars, provided they do not have 2-EHA, and most don't. My posts about same, including documentation, are on this forum and others. This is unnecessary panic about conditions that have not existed in years (at least in the USA). | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Frequent User Username: wraithman Post Number: 505 Registered: 11-2017 |
There is water and there is water. I have seen well water filled with minerals with a hi PPM and other well water with much lower PPM. If you have a choice of tap water and it's from a water softener, that would be your best bet. Best choice would be to have extra 50/50 mix coolant readily available. | ||
| Alan Dibley Frequent User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 206 Registered: 10-2009 |
I use water from dehumidifiers - it's nearly pure distilled water. If it dos not seem important enough, check the stories of blocks from pre-war cars which get bunged up with scale by being refilled with tap-water. In "hard" water areas it kills engines. The dehumidifiers are used to try to reduce rust damage in the garage after a wet journey, and this is UK so that's most of them. Alan D. | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Frequent User Username: wraithman Post Number: 506 Registered: 11-2017 |
Perfect Alan | ||
| Mike Thompson Frequent User Username: vroomrr Post Number: 883 Registered: 04-2019 |
Sir Alan Dibley OBE (Full title) You act like it rains or something in the UK, say it isn't so.  The UK is like an Arizona desert it never rains there. It's just a myth. Everyday in the UK is a bright clear sky, the sun kissing the morning dew. (Then let's loose with a torrent of rain.) Now in the tropics as Puerto Rico, and even here, clouds are tricky things. A little cloud that any other place on earth would not even think of raining will wait until it is right over "your" head, then let go like someone poured a bucket full of water on your head. You only have time to look up and say, Really. | ||
| Alan Dibley Frequent User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 207 Registered: 10-2009 |
In fact the weather in UK is pretty good - sometimes it rains sometimes it shines, sometimes it snows and sometimes it's a heatwave. This means that stuff grows. My wife is the gardener here and she plants and harvests fruit of all kinds and ditto vegetables. And again, some of them thrive and some of them don't but when we eat them they are FRESH. Alan D. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2918 Registered: 06-2009 |
I'm going to give a straight quote from the Wärtsilä document I referenced earlier, and then I'm done. When a major manufacturer of coolant says the following (even though it isn't a major in my own country, the principles of the chemistry involved are the same everywhere): "Soft waters (like distilled, ion exchanged, reverse osmosis and rain water) with a total hardness close to 0 °dH have the ability to dissolve oxygen and carbon dioxide from the air, which quite rapidly lowers the pH levels and increases the corrosive effect of these waters. Suitable amounts of calcium and magnesium compounds (= total hardness) participates in forming a thin, corrosion protective layer on the heat exchanging surfaces of the cooling water system." Unless you live in an area where the water is so hard that a water softener is needed, tap water is a better choice than distilled, dehumidifier, or any really soft water. Coolant manufacturers never expect that service shops are going to be using distilled water to mix up coolant under typical circumstances. And I doubt that they do for their premixes, either. Using water alone, or in anything significantly greater than 50% proportion with modern coolants is just asking for trouble. Brian | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3440 Registered: 04-2003 |
Brian, Your chemistry is correct however there is one characteristic that also has to be included and that is vehicle cooling systems are anaerobic [i.e. 100% fluid and no air] partially but not fully closed systems. I think the coolant manufacturer concerned is using some marketing hyperbole and "pseudo-science" to generate repeat sales of their product. The only time the coolant mixture is fully exposed to air is when the concentrate is being diluted to make premix before being put into the sale container and again when the diluted coolant is being poured into the vehicle cooling system. The breather cap on the vehicle header tank does allow fluid in the tank to permanently come into contact with air however this aerated fluid only enters the actual cooling circuit when leaks occur and the header tank has to be topped up as a consequence. The amount of air in these situations is not great and the dissolved oxygen/carbon dioxide is miniscule in comparison to the volume of coolant. This may not be the case where concentrate is diluted with treated town water or contaminated water from local water supplies. Tank water is not as pure as some may think due to contaminants in the air being picked up whilst the rain is falling. Air conditioning condensate also comes into the same category as this will also contain contaminants picked up from the ambient air passing through the system evaporator[plural if reverse cycle]. However, it has always been my practice to change coolant every 4 years as a precautionary measure using commercially available distilled water to dilute the specified concentrate. . | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2919 Registered: 06-2009 |
David, I also made a mistake, in that Wärtsilä is not a coolant manufacturer but instead a manufacturer of engines, mostly large engines for things such a ferries. They are discussing coolant in their engines. However, again, chemistry is chemistry, which is why the panic about extended life or lifetime coolants in their current formulations, provided they're not DexCool and do not contain 2-EHA, is unwarranted. I've been using Peak Global Lifetime in all my cars (but one, haven't yet done its latest flush and fill) for years now, and that includes the SY cars. I know others who've been doing the same in SY and SZ cars. We really don't do anyone any favors by making maintaining these cars any more difficult than it need be. Some care is needed, but the statement that all extended-life or lifetime coolants are death for our cars and that distilled water is required are both inaccurate. In the end, my only point is the obsession with "water quality" is very simply unjustified. I've dug through tons of documentation and the conclusion is that most commercial coolants include additives to deal with a range of water quality that falls into the broadly normal range. If one wants to use distilled, or dehumidifier, or rain water then have at it, but it's not essential. It just astounds me how often "the received wisdom" is anything but when you (any you) take the time to dig in to it. Brian | ||
| Mike Thompson Frequent User Username: vroomrr Post Number: 885 Registered: 04-2019 |
I think the most important thing is being over looked in this case. Jeff McCarthy said "it's a 200 mile trip". Then he is going to have it flushed. It is not like it is going to be a forever thing. Jeff McCarthy was only concerned the car would overheat. He just needs to drive some 3 and a half hours to Melbourne. But I still maintain that unless he is absolutely sure what coolant/antifreeze is in his car just pouring the green stuff in can be dangerous. Water is the safest way unless he knows for sure what coolant is in there. (The goo effect. As a parts specialist I heard story after story of those that put in the wrong coolant and the bad results.) | ||
| John Grieve Experienced User Username: john116 Post Number: 80 Registered: 04-2012 |
I use tap water in all my cars (with coolant concentrate). Have done for 30 years (in the same cars), no problems yet. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2920 Registered: 06-2009 |
John Grieve wrote: I use tap water in all my cars (with coolant concentrate). Have done for 30 years (in the same cars), no problems yet. As have most people, whether they know it or not. I can guaran-damn-tee you that virtually all garages/service stations that purchase coolant concentrate in bulk have never been using anything but water out of their taps to thin it to correct 50/50 concentration. Just as most people have been using the latest commonly available motor oils and unleaded gas (often with ethanol) for decades now in many countries without death and devastation resulting. I don't doubt the story that serves as a basis for coolant paranoia in the RR community that originated with Stephe Boddice, but it was also very specific to a time and [then new] coolant chemistry that has even been put to bed since then. You cannot make rational and informed decisions unless you actually pay attention to new data as it comes in. I just said the following on a computer forum, minutes ago, but it applies here, too: "Paranoia after these sorts of events often results in people taking steps that actually make them more vulnerable, not less. You are overreacting and taking actions that are, in the final analysis, counterproductive to the security and stability of your system." Brian | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 1564 Registered: 02-2013 |
There was a bloke who sold coolant in Oz it was the colour of rusty water. He disappeared. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 628 Registered: 10-2008 |
Brian, I accept your views, but having stripped a RR Spirit V8 and seen the damage caused to a head gasket by modern longlife antifreeze permeating the gasket material, I would rather waste money on genuine Crewe antifreeze at £40 per 5 litres. As for ethanol fuel, my son who is a vintage car restorer could write a book on the issues he has had to deal with.Maybe things are different in the UK. Mark | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 1572 Registered: 02-2013 |
The goo effect!? I have never seen the goo effect. Has anybody seen the goo effect? Could the goo effect be paranoid propaganda placed pulsating forward by auto manufacturers and coolant manufacturers to beef up their sales. After all both are known to be liars and dishonest. So to reiterate. Has anybody out there actually pulled an engine down and visually observed the goo effect? Or the coolant turning into gel effect? The auto industry is known over time to contain its fair share of quackery and professional snake oil salesmen. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2924 Registered: 06-2009 |
I've never seen either. You can test "the goo effect" with a silicone seal and soaking same in a coolant that's high in 2-EHA, which is hard to find these days (as DexCool formulations, once relatively high in concentration of said plasticizer no longer are). I've seen so many engines and cooling systems with any possible mixture of coolants you can buy and never encountered gelling. Brian | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Frequent User Username: wraithman Post Number: 508 Registered: 11-2017 |
I always add a few containers of "Goo Gone" when I drain my cooling systems. Next... | ||
| Trevor P Hodgkinson New User Username: wm20 Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2006 |
Jeff is most likely at McDermotts by now but some thoughts about cooling systems and coolants that we seem to be overlooking. The job of the coolant is to transfer heat from the engine to the radiator and out of the system while maintain a consistant heat within the engine. As such almost any low viscosity fluid will do the job. The object of the addative to the coolant is primarily to prevent galvanic corrosion in hot places and secondary to decrease the freezing point of the water in low temperatures as the radiator is under pressure this raises the boiling point to around 120 deg C so any elevation of the boiling point is not necessary as the engine should be running around 80 deg C if the thermostat & water pump are working. The solubility of a gas in a liquid is inversely proportional to the temperature and by 80 deg C the solubility of Oxygen in water is effectivly zero. The purist tea drinkers out there will remember that you do not boil water to make black or green tea, you heat it till you see fine bubbles start to form then add it to the tea pot. Those fine bubbles are the oxygen being forced out of solution. If you have chlorinated water then when the water gets to 25 deg C you will see the chlorine bubbling out. Galvanic corrosion requires two or more metals with different galvanic potentials to be in contact with each other and a bridge over them with a conductive liquid. For corrosion to happen the liquid has to be able to make a conductive path between the two ( or more ) metals and for this to happen the liquid has to be still or at least moving very slowly. Thus corrosion only happens when the engine is turned off and the coolant is not flowing. Metalic salt deposits such as Ca or Mn form a secondary cell so in our engines there would be an Al/Ca and an Fe/Ca cell if we just consider Ca as the only slat in the water. The Al/Ca cell has a lower potential that the Al/Fe cell so any corrosion will be slower for a start plus the only water ayailable to complete the circuit is the water attached to the Ca as the Ca deposit forms a fairly continous barrier between the Al ( or Fe) and the water which is sort of like a 1/2 porous paint. Thus the logic against using deionized water. Then there is the RR safety features. If Jeff's Shadow is wired the same as mine, when the heads get hot alarms go off everywhere and when it gets too hot it shuts down the engine which in my case happened to be in peak hour on the old Glebe Island Bridge | ||
| Alan Dibley Frequent User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 208 Registered: 10-2009 |
Thanks for the convincing explanation, Trevor. I have changed my habit of using dehumidifier water in the rad - we have lots of Ca in water in Cheddar, out of Cheddar Gorge in the limestone Mendips. Distilled water is useful for the last rinse after a car wash - it reduces the little patches of residue left if the sun dries it before it can be leathered. Alan D. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2929 Registered: 06-2009 |
I thank Trevor as well. He has restated (and very well) some of what was in the document I referenced earlier, but in both a way that is a bit more detailed and a bit more approachable. Brian | ||
| Mike Thompson Frequent User Username: vroomrr Post Number: 899 Registered: 04-2019 |
Quotes: For example, mixing green coolant with orange or pink antifreeze will cause the resultant mixture to gel into a thicker substance which doesn't flow as easily - clogging cooling system channels, radiators, and heater cores. Left uncorrected, the water pump will overheat and fail. If the engine itself becomes overheated, there's a chance that head gaskets may fail and cylinder heads may become warped. https://www.carid.com/articles/antifreeze-explained.html Silica gel formation in heavy duty diesel cooling systems has increased with the increased usage of antifreeze with high levels of silicate. Gelation can occur when this type of antifreeze is mixed with supplemental coolant additives which are required to protect heavy duty diesel engine cooling systems, or when the undiluted antifreeze is stored for long periods. Gel in the cooling system can decrease coolant flow and heat transfer causing engine overheating. Gel formation is shown to be a chemical problem, not a problem of newer engine and cooling system design. Recommendations for avoiding the problem are included. https://www.jstor.org/stable/44743009?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents If you mix IAT with OAT the silicates will drop out and begin to plug radiators and heater cores. Mixing different types of coolants will cause the coolant to lose its extended life properties. http://cf.linnbenton.edu/eit/app/mackd/print.cfm?pgID=8798 I talked to hundreds of people not just a few friends as a parts specialist. | ||
| Trevor P Hodgkinson New User Username: wm20 Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2006 |
Gees Brian, I am now blushing. Thank for the boquet , Comes from part time teaching electroplating students just enough metallurgy to sound like they know what the chemical sales rep is talking about. Since going to the wall in the GFC followed by the Carr government legislating the wedding cars out of business I have not been on here for a very long time. But a chap came round yesterday wanting some Spirit/Spur information thinking I actually knew something about RR because of the Shadows sitting in the paddock. Naturally I showed him this forum & the Tee-one Topics. He has bought a car that has no brakes, is locked in park, won't run & thinks he can fix it then on sell at a profit. | ||
| Philip Sproston New User Username: phil2025 Post Number: 34 Registered: 07-2006 |
Jeff Castrol radicool NF only comes in 20lt drums.Rolls Royce approved was Antifreeze DB then changed the to Antifreeze NF then to radicool NF. Use demineralised water Penrite has 20lt. | ||
| Mike Thompson Frequent User Username: vroomrr Post Number: 904 Registered: 04-2019 |
Trevor I more or less did the same thing with buying a Silver Shadow for $2500 USD. On mine I have had to reinvent the brakes, carb, and my electric linkage to the transmission was unhooked for some reason. See my posts: Brake System Using Booster & Master Cylinder http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/35273.html?1560318898 #2 Brake System Using Booster & Master Cylinder http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/36679.html?1565540292 Hulking Edelbrock 4 Barrel Conversion http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/35239.html?1562600341 Help Restore My 1975 Silver Shadow http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/35587.html?1560318680 #2 Help Restore My 1975 Silver Shadow http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/36675.html?1565590387 Probably everything he is going to have to restore, on the cheap, is in there somewhere. | ||
| Trevor P Hodgkinson New User Username: wm20 Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2006 |
Thanks Mike. Like most of the time wasters who knock on the door, I doubt that I will hear from him again & I note he has not posted. He said he paid $ 10,000 for the car & was intending to sell it for $ 15,000. If he gets it running & registered for under $ 5,000 it will be a big enough miracle to found another religion. | ||
| Patrick Francis Frequent User Username: jackpot Post Number: 281 Registered: 11-2016 |
Hi Guys I own a glass kettle that starts to form a calcium covering over the bottom heat plate and the glass up to the level of where the water gets up to. Every month, I fill the kettle with a mixture of 75% water and 25% cleaning vinegar (available at my local supermarket at £0.60 per litre) It takes one boil to clean the scale completely, afterwhich I rinse and boil twice. This also works cold, but needs to be left for a few hours. I have been doing this to my kettle for the past couple of years. The kettle has a rubber seal between the stainless heater plate and glass jug, and I have had no problem to date. Is this an idea for our cars between coolant changes? I do not know. Cleaning vinegar is mild and would seem to me to be harmless for the engine and seals, unlike dilute sulphuric acid which I know some people use. Anyone have experience? | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2940 Registered: 06-2009 |
Patrick, Not with vinegar (which is a very dilute, mild acid indeed if it's any of the ones you can buy for human consumption) but I've known of folks to do this with a dilute citric acid solution. And I know at least one of them is a RR owner, but not me. Citric acid is commonly available because it is used in food preparation in various ways. Jewelers also use it as pickle (look that up for the context). It's nice because it is dry crystals and you can mix it up to the percentage acidity that you like. Brian | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Frequent User Username: wraithman Post Number: 514 Registered: 11-2017 |
Here's a link to a Mercedes forum regarding a citrus cleanse. https://www.benzworld.org/threads/anyone-used-the-mercedes-citric-acid-cooling-system-flush-000989102511.2395537/ | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2941 Registered: 06-2009 |
Well, that benzworld topic is definitely useful, but the Water Wetter comment from the OP brought down the credibility a bit for me. But only that part. | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Frequent User Username: wraithman Post Number: 516 Registered: 11-2017 |
same here Brian. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 635 Registered: 10-2008 |
Water wetter does have its uses in cars where the cooling system is on its limits. I have successfully used it on several pre war engines that have been heavily uprated, on a V12 Jag used in heavy traffic, and on a tuned AH sprite. This is redline WW mixed with 50/50 blue antifreeze, compared with 50/50 blue antifreeze. Similar temperature results were achieved using Crewe antifreeze at 50/50 with water. Does this contain a water wetter ? Mark |
