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Benoit Leus
Prolific User
Username: benoitleus

Post Number: 232
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Saturday, 23 January, 2016 - 20:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hanwells now has a 1980 Silver Shadow for sale, fited with a 4.6 Toyota Landcruiser engine.
I find this rather strange as it can hardly be that easy and will not be that refined.
If you want cheaper running costs why not fit LPG ?

http://hanwells.net/showrooms/rolls-royce-showroom/rolls-royce-silver-shadow/1980-v-rolls-royce-silver-shadow-series-ii-in-classic-walnut-15-950

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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 128
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Sunday, 24 January, 2016 - 09:46:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

A bastardization, if I may be blunt. Don't you just love the aesthetic installation of the insulation between engine and bulkhead? How do you suppose the issue of the hydraulic pumps and accumulators was addressed?
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1821
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 24 January, 2016 - 09:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,

Since an accumulator is prominently featured in the foreground of the photo toward the right, next to the spring tower, I suspect an electric pump has been installed to power the system.

Brian
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 973
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Sunday, 24 January, 2016 - 10:09:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"How do you suppose the issue of the hydraulic pumps and accumulators was addressed?"

Easy way for the pump would be as the Citroen C6 does, go electric, but use two pumps in case of failure.
Nice to see the battery fitment close to the starter motor.
The Toyota engine [bullet proof] is the best for this type of adaption and still useing the RR auto box with the column linkage etc.

All said and done IMO best to keep the car with its original engine etc if possible or be able to return it back to its original spec if need be later in its life.
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1587
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 24 January, 2016 - 11:54:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear me let's not get too precious about this. A service organisation in Victoria for some years has been installing an American petrol engine in these cars very effectively when the original for whatever reason gave up the ghost (no pun). I would not like to have one but I do admire the ingenuity of whoever did the installation. The electric pumps may be the answer Brian although the Victorian cars have the Citroen belt driven pumps which do a pretty good job I'm told.
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.138.60.22
Posted on Sunday, 24 January, 2016 - 20:11:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"Hear, hear"!

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 855
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 17 February, 2016 - 03:22:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bastardisation is the correct word, it means in engineering an assembly of bits that were not meant to be.

This is actually a pointless conversion. In my experience the people who did this job would have been disappointed over the fuel economy. It's usually not as good as they first thought.

There are many proper diesels that would be much better.

Lpg Shadows are about 12 mpg on lpg around town and as much as 18 on a run. Which in cost terms is about 40 % better than petrol and probably about the same as running diesel.

A real problem with this sort of conversion is the final drive ratio. It won't be a good match to engine charistics.

However if someone wants to have a diesel Shadow then this one is probably on of the better ones.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1912
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 17 February, 2016 - 07:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Unfortunately, the images do not show whether the Toyota diesel engine installed has a turbo-charger or is naturally aspirated. If it is a naturally aspirated diesel, it would be expected to have the inherent non-turbo diesel problem of being unable to maintain a constant speed let alone accelerate when climbing hills. The turbo engines are much better in this respect.

The thought of a diesel-engined R-R/B staggering up a hill is not a good thing and, in my opinion, a LPG conversion on a petrol V8 is more practicable regardless of whether it is the R-R or an alternative V8 engine.

BTW Land Cruisers are renowned in Australia for being very heavy on fuel especially in city driving which is reflected in the resale value for low-mileage vehicles primarily used for suburban shopping and school drop-offs and pick-ups by drivers who "feel safer" in a ponderous bulky vehicle that they have difficulty driving in traffic and confined spaces like car parks.

Off-road users and mining companies have a high opinion of the Land Cruiser and tolerate the fuel consumption as the price that has to be paid for the other benefits the Land Cruiser has in the harsh environment where they excel. These vehicles are always well-used when they are replaced by new vehicles and this is also reflected in their resale price.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 409
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 17 February, 2016 - 08:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Without doubt a spectacular and horrible car, and a mongrelization of a once superb motor vehicle resulting in what one would expect to emerge from a Cuban or North Korean Dodgy Brothers Setup in the ghetto parts of Havana or Pyongyang.

It has all the class of a three eyed five legged psychedelic guinea pig. I would be to embarrassed to drive it anywhere.

Its shows that one can have the taste of a poisoned garden slug and still have the money to purchase a Rolls Royce. Sad and unbelievably tragic.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 977
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 17 February, 2016 - 17:57:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"Unfortunately, the images do not show whether the Toyota diesel engine installed has a turbo-charger or is naturally aspirated."

Yes it has a turbo and that engine will have the grunt [torque] to out perform the RR engine at the lower rev range with more MPG, progress of the diesel.
However emissions are another ball game with this one IMO!
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 5.80.21.230
Posted on Wednesday, 17 February, 2016 - 19:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vlad,

How does a poisoned (metaldehyde) garden slug
"taste", and are we referring to the grey slug, the keeled slug or one of the big fatties?

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 411
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Friday, 19 February, 2016 - 06:13:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well I suppose I got a bit carried away with the metaphors or whatever available in the English language Christopher and perhaps a bit of emotion seeped into my screed as I hate to see such horrible things done to such magnificent cars but I could imagine that the poisoned slug tastes with its mouth but once poisoned it vomits green and appears not at all well so I am saying the conversion is taste wise ie style wise on a par with a slimey awful looking mollusc that is very ill and vomiting green.

It other words - who ever did this to the Shadow basically had vulgar style. It is to me a version of classic car blasphemy, sedition and treason, and of course ultra vandalism.

I dare say the English men and women who designed and made the car, the entire management and sales team of Rolls Royce would have been horrified.
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 5.80.20.104
Posted on Friday, 19 February, 2016 - 19:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vlad,
Like skin, paint is very thin.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Jeff Cheng
New User
Username: makeshift

Post Number: 3
Registered: 2-2016
Posted on Monday, 22 February, 2016 - 09:32:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I'm of the generation who like tinker with garish Japanese buzzboxes and no stranger to engine swaps, so I'll play devil's advocate here.

Performance aside, perhaps it was the most cost effective way at the time to keep an otherwise clean car on the road after a catastrophic engine failure. This has happened with my friends through university to keep cars running, albeit on a cheaper scale, where there is more engineering skill than spare cash. The rest of the car looks clean, and it would be a shame to see it sit ("I'll get to it" types) or parted out where at least now it's being enjoyed.

I also have a friend who's family run a pair of Bentley S-series as hire cars, but with GM V8 running gear fitted and the original drivetrain stored away. Having done this for decades now, he says the ongoing costs as a business are much cheaper with the GM gear. What are you guys' thoughts on such engine swaps from a cost-benefit/business perspective?

Hopefully I haven't ruffled too many feathers...
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1916
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 22 February, 2016 - 10:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff,

Makes some sense for a commercial owner but certainly not for a collector who wants originality and condition above everything else and is prepared to pay a high price to achieve this outcome.

It is your choice which way you want to go as you and only you will take responsibility for the final outcome of the vehicle after your ownership.

A recent example was a US friend of mine about 20 years ago who purchased a 1948 Lincoln Continental convertible in Wisconsin with the original V12 engine replaced by a previous owner with a later GM V8. My friend originally had the intention of making it into a custom hot rod. Fortunately, the previous owner had kept the original V12 engine on a pallet despite the fact it required extensive reconditioning and it came with the sale. Shortly afterwards, my friend visited us and spent some time helping me with repairs to DRH14434 and we spent considerable time discussing what he should do with the Lincoln. He was keen initially to continue with the conversion and my advice was to keep it original - after attending a NSW Club event and talking to other members who owned a variety of classic cars, he began to come around to my point of view and proceeded to do a full restoration of the car when he returned home. He subsequently came to realise the value of his find when he obtained detailed information about his car from the Lincoln Continental Owners Club.

Last year, he began to reduce the demands on his time and made a decision to sell the Lincoln which was subsequently purchased by a well-known car collector based in Guatemala. The Lincoln and others owned by the purchaser may be viewed on the following link - note it has its original Wisconsin 1948 registration plates which the owner included in the sale to my friend:

http://mariosueiras.com/1948-lincoln-continental/

If you browse the website, you will see an impressive collection of cars and similarly impressive storage and display facilities giving you an idea of what a dedicated collector will spend to obtain well-maintained original vehicles.
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Jeff Cheng
New User
Username: makeshift

Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2016
Posted on Monday, 22 February, 2016 - 11:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

I agree that engine swaps make no sense and have no place in a 'collector's' collection, or even a 'common' owner/enthusiast. Engine swaps can be great if the advantages (to the owner) outweigh the additional complexities/issues, but often is the case that you may just be buying someone else's project, with the horrible truth that it's not be up to your own standards of workmanship. I've engine-swapped a few cars, and made sure to document EVERYTHING for later, but even then the new owner would call me a year later asking what parts I used to get around certain issues etc.

Funny you mention the '48 Continental. I just finished reading a thread on another forum documenting a restoration of a '42 Continental Coupe. Beautiful cars.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7052540-Possibly-a-new-project-1942-Lincoln-Zephyr-V-12-Coupe-jigsaw-puzzle

The same member also has threads restoring a '56 Continental MarkII and a '32 Ruxton. The detail to attention on a concourse resto sure blew my mind.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6206837-1932-Ruxton-build-thread-or-quot-How-I-became-an-unwitting-restorer-quot
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1917
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 22 February, 2016 - 15:30:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the links - have sent them to my friend in the USA as he will be very interested in the restoration of the Lincoln and also the Ruxton.

Absolute tragedy to see the aftermath of all the work that went into the Lincoln.

By the way - he had an intense admiration for the Corniche as a car of the 1970's but his heart was in cars from the 1930/1940 era.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 863
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 26 February, 2016 - 07:13:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

One of the reasons I like RRs and Bentleys is the smoothness of the power delivery from that V8.

In theory a straight six should be just as smooth. A straight six Rover P5 is smoother than the V8 version P5B. However the Rover V8 is not that smooth for a V8. Largely due to Rovers cost cutting. The straight six was built to a much higher standard and IMO as good as RR.

In the workshop manual it says to scrib around engine mountings. If a non genuine engine is fitted how does one ensure the mounting system is the best it can be. Part of the smoothness of any car is the design of the engine mountings. And indeed part of the smoothness of a RR is the engine mounting system.

Cost.
A used engine for a Shadow is about 6000. How much is a used Toyota engine. Plus all the bracketery for ancillary components. The gearbox adaptor plate is a precision component and probably cost at least 200.

LPG conversion costs about 1500 using a specialist garage. DIY is actually quite easy. I did my car in 2004 and the parts were 600 and the time was 8 hours to fit. The only problem is less boot space. However the spare wheel carrier could be replaced with a LPG tank. I haven't had a puncture for years. ( I will probably get a puncture now) UK petrol 1.01 and LPG 0.55 a litre. Petrol 12mpg and LPG 11mpg. LPG is 55% cost wise to petrol but about 10% less mpg (LPG) 10% less energy in LPG compared with petrol. This does effect performance however one just presses the go pedal slightly more or drive a bit slower. My car will easily sit at 85mph any faster and the cops will definitely write you up. 3 points on the licence and a fine. Insurers are usually OK about a speeding ticket. I drive at about 60 mph on long journeys, nicely relaxed with an unheard engine purring along. Somewhere far away a roar can be heard if the gas is stepped on. Just to let me know that the car does actually have an engine.

The cost of running a Shadow is not only the MPG. I save a notional quid for every quid I spend on fuel. So what may appear to be half price running costs aren't nearer 75% I should think.

I suspect if a driver who has never driven a "Roller" then this car may seem really nice but if I drove it I would find all sorts wrong. Imagine 70mph.

The sound proofing is a bit naff. They could have blacked out the light colour.

Rolls-Royces shouldn't be called Rollers either Royce or RR is much better.

Removal of my entire LPG system would take around an hour and leave the car as it left the factory apart from 4 holes in the boot floor and small self tappers holes in the chassis members which a coat of under seal would cover.

Crewe used LPG for engine testing because it's cleaner.
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Robert Howlett
Prolific User
Username: bobhowlett

Post Number: 154
Registered: 9-2010
Posted on Tuesday, 08 March, 2016 - 19:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dad and I fitted a Falcon 4.1 Litre Alloy Cross Flow engine to a Series 3 1977 land rover station wagon many years ago with Toyota power steering. The most popular conversion at the time was the Holden 202 Red Motor. Us in Australia surly know many of these conversion's back in the good old days and I suppose some are still on the road. Many went for the Holden 202 for the reliability of the Holden if you didn't have the Thomas or capstan winch fitted to the transfer case and a Fairley overdrive which took its place. So dad and I went for the falcon 4.1 a slower revving engine and a bit more torque which gave really great performance .The old Land rover motor 2.6 6 cylinder had a nasty habit of burning exhaust valves out and towing a 25 foot caravan was just to much for the old girl "eg" max revs on hills and hot Queensland weather. After some research we decided in the falcon motor good bottom torque and heaps of power ..No need for the bicycle inner tube holding the gear stick in place as with the Holden motor ..Dad would have sold this car because of the valve issue but after the conversion he kept it for 30 years and took my family and or stupid oversized caravan all over Australia. Not sure I would convert the Roller but if the body was good and the engine stuffed MMMM maybe. I just don't know
cheers

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