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David Michael Leedy
Experienced User
Username: dleedy

Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2011
Posted on Wednesday, 02 September, 2015 - 00:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

HELP! I'm in trouble....I went to drive my 1975 RR Silver Shadow to my office this morning and all seemed fine as I backed up-down my hilly driveway. I put it into drive and it went a few feet forward and then wouldn't move - No transmission...I was just turning the corner and this happened. I managed to put it in reverse and it moved very slowly (high revs)...I had just driven the car last week with no problems. I am forced to park it on the street...barely moves into gear? My mechanic passed away (no one else ever worked on it and I know of a place but charges very high$$) and I checked the fluid and it is full? Any ideas? The car is parked on the street which is ok for a little while but hate having it there...How much should I expect this to cost to repair. How difficult a job would it be? It goes into gear slightly and moves ever so slowly when revving it high...I know it had needed a transmission service but I've been procrastinating...(it was slipping a little when first being driven)....Yikes!
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1642
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 02 September, 2015 - 00:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

The one thing that need not be high dollar (or at least RR-markup high dollar) is transmission service on these cars. Any shop that is competent with GM transmissions of the era should be able to work on your car without any issue.

Since you were able to put it into reverse I am not imagining that this is a electric gear selector issue.

Good luck in finding a transmission shop that you trust to work on it. I'm lucky enough to have a very good one near to me.

Brian
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Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert
Prolific User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 119
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 02 September, 2015 - 01:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,
You're parked on a hilly driveway? All what you report sounds like low transmission fluid to me. Check level with engine running and gear selector in park. Transmission should be hot according to the workbook but we'll need to skip this. If your fluid happens to be low, it will foam and this gives you the symptoms you describe. This all means that the dipstick reading will not be consistent. I suggest that, before you start the engine, take a reading. Fluid level will drop nearly an inch with engine running. Fluid type is Dexron II, II or VI. Report your findings!
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Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert
Prolific User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 120
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 02 September, 2015 - 01:31:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Also, your gearbox is standard GM TH400. In the US, you can't throw a stone without hitting a car that has one installed. The standard overhaul kit with new clutches, o-rings and friction bands is less than 300USD. Expect 8h removal & re-installation for somebody not familiar with the RR (any transmission shop will find removal&reinstallation standard, the sequence of work to remove the trans is really self-explanatory, the only thing that they may not have seen yet is the electric gear selector motor), and some 4h for the actual overhauling process. I just overhauled mine by myself, I'm only an amateur mechanic and I found this not to be rocket science.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 474
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 02 September, 2015 - 09:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I would in your position immediately get the car to a good autobox shop. They should be able to arrange recovery often for free if they are doing the box. Brake bands and clutches in autoboxes can suddenly fail. Previous slipping is a bad omen for the friction bits.

The fluid should be clear red like cherry aid soft drink. If it's cloudy dark and smelly thats the friction linings breaking down.

I suspect yout gearbox needs a straightforward overhaul which will last for mamy miles. Get new convertor as well.

Also the car will be safely locked up in a workshop.
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Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert
Prolific User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 122
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 02 September, 2015 - 18:43:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob, I just overhauled my gearbox and kept the converter, assuming that it will still be very fine with 90K miles on the clock , albeit 30 years of age.
Was that not a wise move?
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1578
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 02 September, 2015 - 20:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

JP/ I have had overhauled quite a number of boxes but only overhauled my own being 'S' series 'Jerkomatic' and a few preselector Siddeley units.

If the converter is welded shut, to me it begs being opened. Pandora is alive and well. There is usually an exchange unit available but if not, specialised plants open them overhaul them and weld them shut again for a nominal charge. the thought of overhauling a box and then finding on driving that there was a fault in the converter is wrist-slashing stuff!
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1644
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 03 September, 2015 - 00:51:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

JP,

Since the same basic gearbox that's in your car is in a truck I own that now has just under 270K on it with no transmission work I'd be willing to presume you should be fine.

Your work, if I recall correctly, was triggered by the desire to seal up several leaky seals. If your transmission was working fine before it should continue to work fine now.

This is one time that Bill Coburn and I will be on opposite sides of the fence, which is exceedingly rare. If you haven't had any evidence that there are issues with your torque converter it's not likely there are any or will be any in the reasonably foreseeable future. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Opening a torque converter that shows absolutely no signs of failure is the equivalent of making Pandora's box and intentionally opening it.

Brian
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 485
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 03 September, 2015 - 01:43:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Brian,
I am on the opposite side this time. Again rare for us eh??
My opinion is that the effort involved to get to the torque converter far outweighs the cost of a guarantee that you will have when you replace the existing converter with one that is overhauled.

All that work and hassel to get the gearbox out and then you look at a bloated disc that you have no idea what is inside. All you can go on is either luck or guesswork. The replacement makes future troubleshooting easy should a problem arise from the overhaul and takes away any comeback that the shop may have about the condition of the torque converter.

So what are we talking about here? the difference of $250???? hardly worth the debate.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1645
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 03 September, 2015 - 01:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar,

If one is having this done by a professional shop then I'm agnostic. However, having looked at JPs photos of his own work, and work environment, it would have been a major undertaking to do the additional work needed to get that thing out.

On Usenet, the long-ago precursor to forums, one of the regulars I knew used to say, "Context, Context, Context!!" That's what I'm trying to account for here.

Since I've only had one car in my 38 years of driving that's ever needed any sort of significant transmission service (the Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon, and I suspect this is the result of the mating of a transmission with an engine that's a bit more than it was ever meant to handle) I take a very hands off approach with transmissions, period.

It's the sharing of opinions that really matters. Everyone filters through the information offered and comes to a decision or position based on their own histories and current situation.

Brian
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Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert
Prolific User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 123
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Thursday, 03 September, 2015 - 02:07:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

First of all apologies for hi-jacking David's threat. Then, gearbox was working fine except for a more-than-normal noticeable 1-2 shift under mid-to-heavy throttle. But the main reason was, as Brian correctly remembered, leaky front & rear seals. Box has 90K miles but 30y old, and I found all piston seals inside quite shot: semi-petrified rubber we are all soooo familiar with.
As the converter lacks any rubber seals, and as even the frictions and bands had plenty of material left, I deducted that my converter is fine (thanks Brian for your support). FS in the UK quotes some 300+ GBP for a converter overhaul, but I'd have given you the 250USD right away, Omar. Future will tell if this was wrong judgement!
BTW I had to remove the gearbox a second time, it took me 2h20 minutes compared to 4h30' first time. The reason for that second removal another story I'll cover in my gearbox thread...anyway...gearbox now shifting smoother than it came out of the factory, merit to the TransGo kit I installed (thanks for the tip Daniel, if you read this).
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 947
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 03 September, 2015 - 03:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Fabulous thread. Opposing views and all correct and valid because, as Brian said, it's all about context. In JP's situation I would have done the same.

Here's a thought. There is no way I would even consider removing the gearbox on my car as I do not have a vehicle lift. Therefore I would have to go to a transmission specialist. Labor costs would probably be around $1000 and in that situation I would replace the converter. Using FS prices into the US, another $600. So at the very least, JP has just saved himself $1600, half the price of his scissor lift. If I ever need to remove my gearbox, I will think long and hard about buying a vehicle lift myself.

Geoff
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 486
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 03 September, 2015 - 05:01:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP



The car lift in this image almost cost me a divorce. Best thing I have ever bought. Shame I didn't have it when I was younger.

We are all right - context is important and every situation warrants a balanced appropriate decision.
So here is a question: why would anyone buy a GM part from a non-GM vendor like FS? all FS do is buy stuff from GM, mark it up and then we pay. Where we know a GM part is a GM part, let us just buy it from the appropriate source and pay the appropriate price.
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David Michael Leedy
Experienced User
Username: dleedy

Post Number: 29
Registered: 11-2011
Posted on Thursday, 03 September, 2015 - 05:22:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Quick update, As I am not too mechanically inclined, I simply wasn't checking the fluid level correctly (so embarrassed), but happy to say, I was way, way low on Dexron, Added quite a bit and took the car out for a long drive, almost perfect...Took it to the office this morning and driving it around all day...It is over 90 degrees farenheit, and with AC on, shakes slightly at a red light...Other than that...smooth sailing....So Happy! I appreciate all the feedback about the problem and will take it in for servicing in the near future...But glad I don't "have to" immediatley...

Best Regards!!
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 487
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 03 September, 2015 - 05:34:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear David,
Please don't celebrate too early.
All that oil that you had to replenish has gone somewhere. Ask yourself where?
you need to start looking where this oil has gone.
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David Michael Leedy
Experienced User
Username: dleedy

Post Number: 30
Registered: 11-2011
Posted on Thursday, 03 September, 2015 - 05:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I believe I just neglected it since I got the car almost 7 years ago..I'm checking fluids regularly now...Not celebrating that much but just saying I'm happy I don't have to address it immediately (like having to have it towed to a mechanic or transmission shop I don't know)...}
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Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert
Prolific User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 124
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Thursday, 03 September, 2015 - 05:50:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David, yeah I was right )))) ...let's hope I'm right about my torque converter too (just laughing, but I could't withhold myself on this occasion ;)
I second Omar's thought. Take yourself an hour and go to a transmission shop, they'll know all the orifices where this trans seeps fluid. Also inspect the garage floor for fluid puddles each time you go for a drive. Even if it means lying on the supermarket parking floor. Your trans may need new seals front & back, just like mine did...and then you may just go the full monty and do an overhaul with new clutches etc.
If it's still 90F at your place, then buy me an airline ticket and we overhaul your gearbox next weekend. Serious offer, fall started here punctually on 1st of SEP, it's miserable.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 948
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 03 September, 2015 - 06:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

JP gets the prize for long distance diagnosis.

Omar - I've been looking at your photo with a great deal of envy. I don't mean the car, I mean the vehicle lift. This must put me quite high on the geek scale.

How are the posts anchored?

The lift I have looked at has flat plates at the end of each pillar with drilled holes ready for bolting to the garage floor. Obviously you would need to dig a foundation for each pillar. I was wondering how deep these would need to be.

Geoff
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 488
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 03 September, 2015 - 17:43:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Geoff,
The foundations are deep. There is at least a cubic metre at each corner of solid concrete. I had a cement mixer truck (one of the big ones) driven into the house and they must have emptied 40 or so full wheelbarrows into the pits.
The mess was awful. I had to do it when the wife was on vacation to save the marriage.
Because we are in Dubai, they had to pour the concrete at night to prevent premature curing.

Take care
Omar
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 475
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 04 September, 2015 - 05:11:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Not replacing the convertor is only bad if the convertor fails at a later stage. Some do some don't.

90k miles is about right for g/box overhaul in this application.

None of the bits in the gearbox is RR specific so if someone trys to add money due to expensive RR parts is ripping off. The convertor is nothing special neither.

My convertor has a drain plug.

On you tube somewhere is a film of a convertor running under load and the case can be seen flexing under load.

A good autobox guy will remove the complete gear box in an hour.

I used to do clutches in ford cortina in 20 minutes. 30 minutes to take the engine out. I used to use an air gun to spin the bolts out fast.

My gearbox was overhauled in 1988 at 89k miles by main agent cost 1800 quid. I brought the car in 1989.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 949
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Friday, 04 September, 2015 - 07:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bob_uk

I've just changed the engine oil and filter on my SUV. 4 hours, 10 mins. Beats my previous record by a full 12 minutes!!!!

Geoff
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 950
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Friday, 04 September, 2015 - 08:17:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Apologies for drifting this thread, but does anyone know if the oil filter should be filled with oil before fitting? In the olden days, I was told to always fill the filter holder else the bearings would run dry whilst the filter is filling with oil. Is this true on modern cars, and even the Silver Shadow? My guess is the oil pump feeds the bearings first and the oil returns to the filter afterwards. Is this true? It would be much easier to screw the filter on empty.

Geoff
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 477
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 04 September, 2015 - 09:02:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

No the oil will just run out.

The filter when fitted and gbox filled will be submerged in oil.

The brgs won't be dry they will be oily. As soon as the engine starts there will be copious amounts of oil flowing around the gearbox hydraulics system and lubrication system. Also the gearbox won't be doing any work in park or neutral amd will just turn the pump and the first element. All the rest will be stationary.

So it's dead straightforward change the filter and O rings and sump gasket and bung the oil in 8 pints or 4.5 litres of Dexron.

Do take note that if O rings are left out due to error then its possible to have a leak. This operation has been covered by Bill Coburn in tee one topics, with photos. So a quick read is best. Easy and straightforward. Auto box oil gets hot enough to cook in so be very carefull. Suggest 2 mile drive only so oil is not to hot, but has a bit of heat in it so it flows better.

When the sump is removed expect a small amount of dark sludge this is the dust from the friction linings. Its enivitable that dust will occur.

While you are under there check the gearbox vacuum model right side behind where dip stick tube goes it's on the out side of the gear box. Check the vacuum pipe for splits and things. Note that this pipe has a restrictor in it which must be refitted if a new pipe is fitted. Also oil the gearbox electric shift clevis pins 2 of these. They can go tight. Do not hit with hammer if pins are tight. Get back to me and I'll explian a nifty way of removing the clevis pins without breaking something.

Lastly a visual inspection of the transmission cooler pipes which are steel. They rust out where they go over the right hand front suspension. If rusted replace with copper pipe. However steel will last as long as the originals. These parts are available from autobox shops or thread and pipe shops. If the pipes are ok then a smear of grease especially where its clipped to the body will keep the pipes good. Mine were in a shocking state and a breakdown waiting to happen. The pressure in this bit if the system is purely flow to the cooler in the rad and then back to the gear box sump pan. The pressure is less than 50 psi. The copper or steel pipe used is rated at much more pressure and at a guess 500 psi. Copper is better because it can be bent so much easier than steel or stainless steel. Easier to flair as well.

Once this work is done then it's forget for many miles. 1000s. Apart from check sump bolts after 100 miles and the occasional dip to check the level.
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Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert
Prolific User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 126
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Friday, 04 September, 2015 - 09:19:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob, I understood that Geoff was talking about the engine oil filter.
Still, good info about the gearbox. What do you think of those flexible gearbox cooler pipes? I had to bend mine somewhat to get the gearbox in & out, and I think they work hardened and another time bending will make them snap.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 951
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Friday, 04 September, 2015 - 09:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi JP

Yes - I meant the engine oil filter.

The reason I take so long is it is 90F here. Add to that a hot engine and it's around 100F. So, 10 mins to jack the car up and remove the sump plug, then back into the house for a long break to cool down.

I note your comments above, but Luxembourg enjoys a very moderate climate. 100F is no joke to be working in, especially with the high humidity here.

My question still stands though - does anyone one know if it is really necessary to fill the engine oil filter before fitting.

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1646
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 04 September, 2015 - 10:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

I will share what I've always done, and that's putting the oil filter on straight from the box. I have never seen anyone fill an oil filter before installing one.

Brian
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 489
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Friday, 04 September, 2015 - 16:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If we assume that the filter is on the return circuit then it does not need to be filled. However, if I was designing an engine, I would want to filter the oil before i sent it into tight spaces. I assume that filters are therefore put into the lubrication circuit immediately after the pump. For this reason i always fill the element with oil before putting it on. In the case of the Rolls-Royce engines, it is impossible to fill the filter as much of that oil will spill due to the awkward position and angle. In other applications this method works very well.
The proof that i have that convinces me that filling the filter with oil is a good thing, is the time that the oil pressure light stays on after an oil change. whenever i have had a full charge in the element, there has been no light on at all after initial start up.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 490
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Friday, 04 September, 2015 - 16:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I never change the engine oil filter on my Rolls-Royces/Bentleys without filling the filter with as much oil as i can get in them.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 952
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Saturday, 05 September, 2015 - 02:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian and Omar

Thanks for your replies.

My question was posed almost as an aside, as I was changing the oil and filter on my day car and wondered if it was really necessary to fill the filter bowl prior to fitting it. This can, at times, be messy as I have in the past dropped the new filter, full of oil, as it is awkward to refit. The Rolls filter, as we know, is mounted at an angle, so is prone to oil lapping over the top of the bowl as it is fitted. Hence my interest.

I've checked out the owners manual and handbook and the definitive answer is a definite yes, half fill the filter bowl before fitting. This is stated in the SY1 handbook, page 75. More importantly, a diagram showing the oil flow through the engine is provided in both the SY1 handbook and workshop manual (E46), which clearly shows the oil is pumped from the oil pump, through the filter bowl and then on to the main, big end and camshaft bearings.

I realize I could have looked this up in the first place, but my interest only became focused after the above discussion.

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1650
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Saturday, 05 September, 2015 - 02:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

They changed their mind for the Silver Shadow II and Silver Wraith II.

I'm posting page 84 of the Silver Wraith II Owner's Handbook that shows the oil flow in the engine:

SW Oil Flow Illustration

and also page 79 of the Silver Shadow II Owner's Handbook (and page 85 of the SW-II handbook is identical except for the page number):

Oil change details

Brian
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1651
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Saturday, 05 September, 2015 - 02:50:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

Just curious, but what version of the Owner's Handbook do you have?

I have a scanned copy of TSD2394, reprinted 1975, that also states "Second Edition" on the front and several other pages. It appears that the original date was 1968 based on other pages.

The same information you quote regarding the oil change procedure for the cartridge element cars is in this edition, but nowhere near the page number you quote for yours.

I may need to borrow that from you to keep building my electronic library of OCR scanned Owner's Handbooks!

Brian
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 953
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Saturday, 05 September, 2015 - 02:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian

Brilliant. As always, you challenge the accepted wisdom. This time with the backing of the Crewe Engineers.

The pic below shows the SY1 oil flow diagram. The clear difference is the oil bowl is mounted horizontally on the SY2 and at an angle on the SY1. This makes it impossible to pre-fill the SY2 oil filter bowl.

The Crewe Engineers, in using this new configuration, must have assessed the wear caused by running the bearings "dry" whilst the filter bowl is filling up, is negligible.

This is why I like these discussions so much. There is no definitive answer here. It is down to personal choice/habit.

oil flow

Geoff
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 954
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Saturday, 05 September, 2015 - 03:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian

My owners handbook was reprinted in 1972, TSD2880, from serial number SRA13758. There is no Edition number.

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1652
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Saturday, 05 September, 2015 - 03:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

For things like changing oil and oil filters I base my practices upon what I have observed going on in the garages I've haunted over my lifetime. These range from those of DIY-ers to acquaintances who were professional mechanics.

Until I came into the RR world I had not encountered any vehicle that wasn't using a spin-on filter. Many of those have them spin on at angles that make it utterly impossible to partially or totally fill them with oil before screwing them on. Given that this design is so ubiquitous I draw the logical conclusion that those who engineered these cars had to be presuming that replacement filters would simply be screwed on to their mounts empty. Since I've never yet encountered any vehicle that has died or been damaged by this practice, that's what I do.

It certainly can't hurt to partially to almost totally flood your filter with oil if it mounts with its open end pointing skyward. I just don't because, well, I don't and have never felt the compulsion.

Brian
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 955
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Saturday, 05 September, 2015 - 03:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian

If you have a hole in your archive, I would be quite happy to scan my Drivers Handbook.

My scanner does have a searchable pdf option. My question, if you want to go ahead with this, is have you any software to join pdf files. It would make it easier for me to scan the book as multiple small files, as time allows. This is preferable to scanning the whole lot in one long session and, knowing my luck, losing the whole lot on the last page.

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1653
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Saturday, 05 September, 2015 - 04:41:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

I've e-mailed since the details I wanted to share with you are not at all germane here.

Discussions of PDF split/merge software and alternative PDF readers are a snoozefest for those not directly interested.

Brian
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 478
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Saturday, 05 September, 2015 - 04:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Engine oil filter.

Yes filling the filter with engine oil is common practice providing the fitment angle is around upright. Some engines have the filter fitted up side down Ferrari V12.
Also common practice to crank engine with plugs out until oil light goes out.

I am getting senile mistaking the gearbox for the engine.

100f is just too hot to work in. Any effort and you get tired.

68f is pleasant for working in. 20c.
20c is a standard for calibration of stuff.

Copper pipe if heated to cherry red and quenched in water will go soft - annealed. Copper work hardens and age hardens. So before making stuff from copper annealing is best. Kunifer or cunifer pipe is better than copper. Copper nickle ferrous cu ni fer. I prefer to replace the whole pipe rather than join a new bit in. Its actually cheaper especially if the old fittings polish up nice and are not damaged. Do not use plastic pipe. Seen this go wrong and lose all the gearbox fluid. Fortunately the gearbox will immediately not drive the car. Self protection sort of, don't count on it though.
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1579
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 05 September, 2015 - 10:43:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I don't know if the Factory ever tried running one of their engines to destruction without oil but other manufacturers have. An engine that has been run in oozes oil even with an empty sump and with modern oils the bearing surfaces survive for quite a while before damaging themselves. This combined with what must have been intentional casting design to retain puddles of old oil, surely created an instant maelstrom of oil mist on first turning the key. I follow Robert's practice and spin the engine with the starter with the coil disconnected until the little red light goes out. As to removing the plugs for this operation, it would take the resources the Inquisition to get me to do that!
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John Kilkenny
Prolific User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 224
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Saturday, 05 September, 2015 - 22:54:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Some years ago I scanned my Shadow 1 Owners Manual.
The file is in the Useful Literature Section of our Post War Technical Library, Item 102.
It is the Second Edition originally printed in 1968, reprinted in 1975.
The instruction to "half fill the bowl with clean oil" is on Page 65.
The filter of course is not spin on.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1654
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 06 September, 2015 - 01:01:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,

Is yours the scan with a red cloth cover that's done two pages of the manual to each PDF page? That's what I have and I can't for the life of me remember who sent it to me.

If this is filed under "Useful Literature" it had ought to either be moved or at least crosslinked. Each of the models has a stub for Owner's Handbooks, and I would certainly be looking for an Owner's Handbook there. At the moment none are available under the SY cars page. I scanned the SS-II/T2 and SW-II Owner's Handbooks and sent them along but have never seen these pop up on the site, but perhaps they've been filed under "Useful Literature" rather than "Owner's Handbooks," too.

Brian
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 482
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Sunday, 06 September, 2015 - 07:14:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Normally I would be changing the plugs as well. I got to know which engines could be problematic with the pump not priming if the oil filter and engine oil were changed at the same time. I used to do it quick and start engine engine. If the pump didn't prime then vaccum on the oil sensor port.

If you take an engine apart there is lots oil still in bearings and oil galleries. It makes a oily mess on the bench!.

Diesel fuel filters I like to prefill if possible saves on bleeding if the lift pump is worked by hand as the emgine starts and stutters till it clears itself.
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John Kilkenny
Prolific User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 225
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Sunday, 06 September, 2015 - 08:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,
Yes, that's it.
I submitted it to the forum for publication but I can't remember who actually arranged it.

John
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 854
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Monday, 07 September, 2015 - 00:57:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Don't you just love how a lot of French engines have the oil filter mounted inverted? The theory is that they will drain as the sump empties. Like a lot of theories it isn't borne out in practice. Most of the time there is a considerable quantity of old oil left in the filter long after the sump has drained. Every drop of this will now run down the front (usually) of the block and drip onto your nice, clean driveway.

Regarding diesel fuel filters the consensus of opinion is to pour in a full bottle of injector cleaner and top up with fuel so that the injectors see a concentrated 'jolt' of cleaning agent to scour out any contaminants in the pintles.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 486
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 08 September, 2015 - 05:43:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Correct its also common practice to put injector cleaner in the fuel filter. On Peugeots diesels (XUD) i used to drop the cartridge into the can put injector cleaner in leave lid loose, manual pump fuel into the filter when it overflows tighten lid. Start engine hold revs up at 1500 rpm for 15 secs and thats it. 5mins work. Excellent design for servicing wise.
The XUD engines were at the time about thd best car diesel engine. Many are still going well with 200k miles.
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 511
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 08 September, 2015 - 12:59:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If the oil filter is inverted, and if it drains at every engine stop, that requires the oil pump to refill the filter every startup. Hummmm....
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1662
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 08 September, 2015 - 13:08:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Randy,

The answer to your rhetorical "Hummmmm. . ." is pretty much contained in Bill Coburn's initial observation followed by Bob_UK's "on the bench" experiences.

I've been around engines that others have torn down after sitting for extended periods of time and most are slicker than the proverbial snot on a doorknob internally and the few strokes before an oil gusher is flowing again isn't going to break through the film that's sitting there on all surfaces where it's needed.

Motor oil is interesting in that it's slick and clingy at the same time. The former is a quality of virtually any oil I've ever dealt with but the latter is not.

Brian
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 961
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 08 September, 2015 - 14:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Modern engines with inverted oil filters have anti drainback valves, built into the filter.

Randy's point is interesting, as the SY2 oil filter is mounted horizontally. Just out of curiosity, when the filter bowl is removed during an oil change on an SY2, does the oil spill out or is the filter bowl already drained/empty?

I'm ok with what Brian and Bill have written for oil changes, but filling the filter bowl every time the engine is started seems to me a bad idea, in terms of it's design.

I am assuming the design of the the oil pump/filter assembly on the SY2 prevents drain back, between engine starts.

Just a thought

Geoff
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 488
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 09 September, 2015 - 05:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

A common problem with inverted filters is that people would screw any old filter which may or may not have a anti drain back valve. As long as it screwed on then they seemed happy. Rootes 4 cylinder engines as fitted to the Hunter had inverted filters and drain back was well known. So I always used the correct Fram filter.

I don't worry about any of this with my car because the filter can is pointing down and cannot drain back.

Many years ago I was rebuilding a Rover SD1 6 in line OHC 2.6 litre engine. The owner was concerned about thr first start up. So with engine on the bench and spark plugs removed and oil switch port open, I turned the engine by hand using a socket and brace on the crankshaft pulley nut and within 20 turns oil was issuing from the oil switch port.

Oil is not compressible and once that pump turns the oil will gush into the galleries.

The Rover 6 cylinder engine came in 2 sizes 2.3 and 2.6. The 2.6 was about 150bhp. The 3.5 V8 was about 160 bhp. The 2.6 was quite rev happy. Unfortunately due to people insisting that 20w/50 should be used messed up the cam bearings. The cops used these engines and ran them on the correct oil with no trouble.

The usual story was that the owner thought the correct oil looked like water and every body knows that thicker oil is better. So WRONG. It carbons up the camshaft oil feeds. Volvo 4 cylinder OHC do the same.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1663
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 09 September, 2015 - 10:30:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff Wootton wrote: Randy's point is interesting, as the SY2 oil filter is mounted horizontally. Just out of curiosity, when the filter bowl is removed during an oil change on an SY2, does the oil spill out or is the filter bowl already drained/empty?

I'm ok with what Brian and Bill have written for oil changes, but filling the filter bowl every time the engine is started seems to me a bad idea, in terms of it's design.


Geoff,

I'm not quite clear by what you mean by "filter bowl" given the cylindrical shape of spin on oil filters and in applications where they're in any position other than open end-skyward. That being said, every filter cross reference I have for the SY2 spin on has an anti-drain back valve fitted based on the data one can pull from the WIX site using their equivalents. I've always found the WIX site the easiest thing to use to try to obtain spec data on filters as many other manufacturers don't seem to publish it or make it very difficult to find at the very least.

Unless I'm conflating one vehicle with another, and that's possible, I have yet to change the oil in any of my cars where there isn't a mess of some sort from oil emptying out of the filter as you screw it off. Some are much worse than others and the filters that have the open end pointing skyward are always the biggest mess since it seems that there is always a reserve of oil in the feed pipe above the filter that comes pouring out as you loosen the filter. You certainly wouldn't have the gusher I experience on the two GMC trucks if the oil were only in the filter since it comes running out and over for several minutes, and that simply doesn't happen from a "full glass" when the opening of the glass is not tilted at an angle.

I don't know why I never seem to remember the direction of oil flow through these filters. I believe that incoming is through the pipe that the filter screws on to, the oil is pushed through the paper media from the center outward, and it goes to its final destination leaving via the small holes that surround the pipe opening at the center. I might have this precisely backward and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am mistaken.

Even with an anti-drain back valve I figure that this only keeps the filter can partially full, at best. On the Bosch 72209 filter that I use it would seem that the maximum amount of retained oil would be what is in the can outside the paper filter medium on the outer circumference of the can:

Bosch Box Scan

Since there is nothing but the paper medium and metal tube full of holes at the center, oil would be able to slowly drain back into the center of the filter and probably out through the input pipe, at least to some extent, with the way the filter is mounted on the SY2 cars.

My gut tells me that in all likelihood there's probably quite a bit of drain back over time even in filters with anti-drain back valves if they're mounted other than with the open end skyward or very nearly so. Unless gravity keeps it in the filter there are just too many ways for slow outflow to take place when the car is idle.

Brian
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 962
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 09 September, 2015 - 11:45:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian

The reason you had difficulty in interpreting what I had been saying in my previous entry is I was talking total nonsense. I wrote my entry at 1am at the end of an arduous day, after which I had pulled up the RR forum for some light relaxation. It was very much a case of putting my typing fingers into operation before engaging my brain.

I had completely forgotten the SY2 cars all have spin on oil filters, with anti drain valves, as standard. Since I am so familiar with the filter and filter bowl on my SY1 I had extrapolated this forward onto the later models, hence thinking the SY2 had a filter and filter bowl mounted horizontally, leading to my supposition that it quickly drains of oil every time the engine is stopped.

Many apologies for prompting your comprehensive reply (although there is plenty of good additional information in it).

Geoff
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 495
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 10 September, 2015 - 07:31:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It takes hours or days for an oil filter to drain dry. The filtration medium holds oil. Pour oil on paper and try to remove the oil, not possible.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1665
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 10 September, 2015 - 08:09:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob,

Which is precisely the point I was making. There is no way to keep an oil filter from draining pretty significantly fairly quickly once the feed pressure is gone, but it takes a much longer period for the oil that's trapped by the anti-drain back valve and the filter medium itself to make its way out again.

However, as you note, it almost certainly will do so over a period of hours to days depending on how much is retained in the filter itself by the anti-drain back valve and the permeable barrier created by the filter medium.

In the final analysis, unless your oil filter is situated such that gravity keeps it full or very nearly so, it will almost certainly drain to be effectively dry except for the tiny amount of oil that is absorbed into the filter paper and stays there and whatever oil may be below the level where gravity allows it to get past a barrier to drainage. This means, of course, that there's almost no difference between starting a car in that state and starting one that has a brand new filter on it that's never seen a drop of oil.

Brian
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 497
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 10 September, 2015 - 10:59:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The oil flows through the filter first on a full flow system.

The drain back valves are quite good and will hold oil back.

The best way is to give the engine a burst on the starter with plugs out.

A lot of engines have oil flow before the engine catches.

The presence of oil still in bearings means that the engine isn't running dry. If one could look inside there will be oil splashing about within a few turns of the engine even on the starter.

In bygone days when cars had straight grade oils. The oil was changed to 20 weight in the winter. The reason is that as the starter motor turns the oil pump is trying to pump too thicker oil and the engine turns too slow to catch and run. So that's how quick the pump starts to work.

Its reckoned that lots of wear hsppens on cold starts due to dry cylinders. IMO this is grossly over stated. The cylinders aren't dry because oil will be flung up the bores probably before the engine has started. A starter usually cranks the engine at 300 to 400 rpm. So not exactly fast.

What really wears engine bores is rich starting mixture the choke. Again IMO overstated.

Some have visions of piston rings scraping up and down the cylinders tearing lumps out due to oil being washed off the bores. In reality the oil is not washed off the bores but diluted by petrol. Petrol is not a good lubricant but it does lubricate never the less. And below the rings is oil flung up by the crank so there's fresh oil always replacing the diluted stuff, all of which is burnt in combustion. Well 99% of it.

The next vision they have is of oil slowly building up and moving through the galleries and eventually oiling things.

From running engines with covers removed on start up the oil instantly goes every where. I forget how much an engine oil pump flows but 50 gallon a minute is not unknown at 700 revs. Also because oil doesn't compress oil moving at one end of a gallery will instantly move oil at the other end.

As I have said in other postings its really about oil flow and pressure is only there to make the oil flow.

Cold starting attracts the snake oil salesmen who will use bad engineering science.

Castrol Magnatech is a bit like that except the oil is good stuff. But magnetic oil is a advertising puff a bit too far.

So Brian Vogal is correct it doesn't make much difference.

However some engines I would fit new oil run engine briefly then change filter.

Always best to change oil and filter without too much mucking about. Don't leave the engine draining with or without filter for hours. The filter port is open with no oil in the sump pick up pipe.

Shadow.Drain oil. Put oil in straight away don't start engine and then do filter if required.

My car fills up the filter in about 1 to 2 sec the engine noise is the same as when the oil pressure is up except the valve lifters clatter a bit then go quiet after 30 secs.

If unhappy with the above then remove the oil switch and apply vacuum to the port. Not the easiest switch to access.

Rolls-Royce of course know all this stuff and would take everything into account so absolutely nothing to worry about.

The older type of cartridge filter in a can is bigger than the spin off. Also the extra work is not much longer or differcult.

Plus should a filter become totally unavailable then the cartridge filter can be removed and the engine run with an empty can. Not possible with spin on.

Running engines without oil is pointless because why would someone want to run an engine without oil.

Briggs and Stratton tested running without oil for a consumer rights agency in the USA. A additive claimed that the en6gine would run without oil. So Briggs ( Lycomming) ran an engine with oil and it ran for a while and lost compression and stopped then they used the additive and after a while the engine seized. The manner of failure was different but the end result was the same, a broken engine.

Beaware both types of filters attract ideas of what else fits. These are dangerous ideas because engines have been badly damaged due to wrong filters being used. I have heard stories of bits of filter going through oil galleries etc. 2 owners got new engines fitted FOC from Crewe due to wrong oil filter.

The Shadow engine lub system is quite good. There are stories of worn pump drives. But this had been sorted by about 1968 and that was only a small mumber of engines. A double sump where the bottom un bolts to expose pick up pipe and any sludge would be good. Say a 6" dia plate with 12 1/4 unf bolts and gasket to seal like a flange. Many older engine had similiar. MERCEDES BENZ. VW aircooled. But to modify a sump would need removal so because quite naturally one would clean the sump and it's a job thats only done once then the mod is pointless and another leak source.

Tee One Topics. An instructor showed some students an amount of sludge that had been cleaned out of a Shadow engine. A student said it was a waste of time. So the instructor said shall I put the sludge back in. Made me chuckle.}
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David Michael Leedy
Experienced User
Username: dleedy

Post Number: 31
Registered: 11-2011
Posted on Wednesday, 23 September, 2015 - 00:50:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello All:

Transmission issues seems to be resolved as it moves easily into gear like it should....Of course a new concern...

The car is shaking like a nervous nelly at idle...Either when I'm at a light or even when just starting up...Once I start driving, everything is fine...I think maybe I have to speed up the idle slightly because when I give it light gas, it seems to calm...Not sure...Did anyone else have this issue? Is there a video or some reference material regarding the idle? Is something else going on I need to know about? Help is very greatly appreciated.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 966
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 23 September, 2015 - 01:29:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David

If this problem has just appeared most likely one of your ignition components is starting to fail. Main suspects would be the coil or the condenser. I had this problem a few months ago on my 74 SY1. The problem deteriorated over the course of a few weeks, after which time the car also started misfiring under acceleration. Replacing the condenser really improved matters but it was not until I replaced the coil that the fault was completely cured.

As you mentioned, it may be your idle speed is a little too low. I run mine at 850 rpm as the engine revs drop significantly once I engage R or D. You could try increasing your idle speed to see if it clears the problem before embarking on a more detailed analysis. If this does not work, check the points are ok. If they are, then start replacing the components. I replaced the whole lot on my car - leads, points, distributor cap, rotor arm, coil and condenser. They are all relatively inexpensive parts, so worth doing if they have not been changed in a long time.

Geoff
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David Michael Leedy
Experienced User
Username: dleedy

Post Number: 34
Registered: 11-2011
Posted on Sunday, 10 July, 2016 - 05:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Update number 2. So I finally got around to servicing the transmission by getting new seals, pan gasket, etc. No leaks and shifts smoothly once again. Total charge $ 500 US including labor. Thank goodness

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