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John Dare
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 144.138.194.27
Posted on Friday, 30 January, 2004 - 15:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Does anyone have a view on magnetic clip on devices that attach to the outside of typical "spin on" oil filters such as Shadow 11 onwards etc. I know they will only "catch" ferrous metals (Not Aluminium etc!) that the filter cant, but note these devices will (claimed) attract down to 2 micron, whereas the average filter, I believe only captures about 28 micron. There is a "Filter Mag" unit made in U.S and available from B & B International in Arizona. Has anyone had any experience with these or similar types?. I am assured the magnetic field wont interfere say, with solid state igntions or other ECUs etc, BUT I note on box.. "not for aircraft applic." but that could be due to ANY possiblity of interference with navigational systems, in which case I suppose the FAA/CAA would prohibit its use.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 181
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 30 January, 2004 - 16:54:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi John,

My 2 cents worth - the micron rating for the filter is determined by the minimum clearances that exist in the circuit through which the fluid passes. The purpose of the filter is to remove material which would otherwise block fluid flow by "damming" at the point where the clearance is less than the particle size. The wear factor is determined by the composition of the particle present and the amount not its size; a 2 micron piece of silica is just as abrasive as a 10 micron piece or a 20 micron piece - a fluid containing 1% silica is less abrasive than 10% silica but abnormal wear will still occur just over a longer period.

I suspect the "Filter Mag" is one of those ubiquitous devices designed to separate you from your money without giving any real benefits. The justification for its use sounds very plausible to the layman and appears logical. The reason I believe it doesn't confer any tangible benefits is that the cost of incorporating a small ceramic magnet in the filter during manufacture would be so low that the filter manufacturers would include one as a standard feature if it was effective.

I also have reservations about the advisibility of concentrating potentially abrasive items at one point such that a lump is formed that could then come adrift and pass through the engine with catastrophic effects. What is relevant to note here is that wear occurs by a soft material trapping abrasive particles which then "lap" adjoining harder material away. The softer material acts as a holder for the abrasive by allowing the abrasive to be pushed into it by the contact pressure - this is why soft sleeve bearings on hardened crankshaft journals show little wear whilst the journals will show a large amount of wear.

So endeth the first lesson in Tribology [wear of metals]!
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Bill Vatter
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Posted From: 68.154.36.133
Posted on Saturday, 31 January, 2004 - 10:38:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

Not sure I agree that particle size doesn't have anything to do with the wear factor, or that it is the number of particles that counts. Consider this comparison:

Say I have a block of wood and two sheets of sandpaper, one very fine, perhaps 400 grit which has many bits of abrasive per unit area, and another very coarse, say 50 grit which has few bits of abrasive per unit area. I start rubbing on the wood with both. Which piece of sandpaper do you think is going to remove the most material from my block of wood?

Also, consider this:

The force-fed plain bearings in your engine, the mains, big ends, and camshaft bearings, do not have metal-metal contact when the engine is running, only during startup, and then only until the oil flow arrives at the bearing. When the engine is running, the bearing is running against oil only. I think it is a reasonable metaphor to say that the bearing journal is "water-skiing" on a lake of oil. In this situation, a bit of grit of perhaps 10 micron, may never touch the bearing, just flow through the bearing with the oil. However, a bit that is 40 micron probably would get caught between the journal and bearing resulting in a scratch.

As an aside to this wear and particle size discussion, it is engine start up that wears on your engine bearings. If you run your engine continuously never shutting it down, The bearings quite realistically could last forever, and many commercial engines that run continuously have extremely long lifetimes. For example, the engines that run on sewer gas in the waste treatment plant powering pumps, typically last for many years running continuously, many times more hours than the longest lived automobile engine ever ran.

Anyway, the smaller particle the filter can remove the better---- until the filter plugs up and the bypass opens, and then the filter does nothing anymore, except depending on the design of the filter, perhaps some previously filtered particles may be washed off the media and enter the engine oil flow.

Bottom line:

Get the filter that removes the smallest particles, and change it frequently, before it has a chance to plug up.
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John Dare
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 144.138.194.208
Posted on Saturday, 31 January, 2004 - 15:00:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Gentlemen - thank you for your input. I can now "confess" that I had already bought the clip-on "Filter Mag" and suppose I just hoped that someone might tell me that I had spent my $100 wisely. The device appears to be more than just a lump of magnetized iron (its finish and "feel" being superlative) and at the very least I will get that little extra feeling of added security, however misguided it might be. Besides - whats $100 today? - cant even buy dinner for two and a half decent bottle of red.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 182
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 31 January, 2004 - 23:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bill & John,

Without going into all the underlying principles; Bill's wood and sandpaper example is more appropriate to a bulk metal removal operation such as lathe turning or surface grinding and not to a typical wear situation in an engine. I have attempted to describe a complex technical subject in simple layman's language to illustrate the point that the filter is only there to ensure oil can flow unimpeded through the engine; it is not there solely to remove the abrasive components that can cause wear as it is not feasible to filter out every piece of potentially damaging material.

John, I suspected you were looking for some "post-purchase" reassurance [marketers use the term cognitive dissonance to describe this behaviour] - the real test will be at your first filter change when curiosity would get the better of me and I would carefully cut the filter open without removing the device and see what "nasties" are retained on the filter casing in the zone of influence from the device.
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John Dare
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Posted From: 144.138.194.219
Posted on Sunday, 01 February, 2004 - 14:29:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you David and Bill, the latter from whom I recently purchased the EXCELLENT, superlative quality oil filter adaptor for my R-type, which allows retention of the stock filter "head" (for appearance) and then accepts a standard "Ryco" Z9 "spin-on" oil filter. MUCH easier to change and little or no mess!. It is to this new arrangement that Ive fitted "Filter-Mag" and Yes - (David) I suppose I WAS looking for some "cognitive dissonance", as you put it, but alas, none was to be found. And I did (and do) intend to perform some invasive surgery (under cover of darkness of course!) on my oil filter at next change and I will cheerfully post the results - if I find anything. Otherwise, I will simply reflect on that dinner for two and a passable bottle of red, that the $100 could have bought.
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 195.93.33.11
Posted on Monday, 02 February, 2004 - 00:46:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

When an engine is not running the oil drians out of the bearings leaving a film only. That film of oil does protect the bearings on start up more than one might think. Except when the engine is not run for long periods.

The best place for a magnet is in the sump. This will only work with iron based stuff not grit or by products of combustion or bearing debris. I call small metalic particals in oil fines.

gearboxes benefit better from magnets.

Modern spin on filters are very good at what they do.

The older type of filter is made to better standards as well.

The are 2 types of oil filter systems full flow and by pass.

Full flow --all the oil goes through the filter from the oil pump before it gets to the brgs.

By pass --- the oil from the pressure relief valve is the only that is filtered. And the brgs get oil direct from the pump.

And variations on the theme. I have seen separate oil filter pumps.




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Norman Geeson
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Posted From: 80.225.188.153
Posted on Tuesday, 03 February, 2004 - 06:13:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John

Re your posting on placing a magnetic device around the oil filter.Bob U.K has hit the nail on the head in this connection.

After stripping a few dozens R-R post war six cylinder engines in my time, I have never come across any quantity of ferrous debris that would cause the engine harm. I would also add that this is in addition to always dissecting oil filters when they are removed from these engines, spin on adaptor type or original full flow.

All metal debris on these engines, either from camshaft gears, main bearing, big end bearings, camshaft bearings, pistons or the oil pump body will not be picked up by magnets. As Bob indicates the best place for a magnet would be in the sump, or bonded to the outside of the alloy sump. In this case it would collect ferrous debris, if there was any, inside the sump adjacent to the magnet. It would do so before it had chance to pass between the pump case and the oil pump fine clearance gears.

If you want early warnings of trouble, always change the oil filter frequently and always dissect it after removal.

Regards

Norman

Norman Geeson
Peterborough
England
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John Dare
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Posted From: 144.138.194.63
Posted on Tuesday, 03 February, 2004 - 06:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Norman, Thank you for your comments which confirm my fear that I may now have what is virtually a $100 magnetized ornament that just happens to live harmlessly, on the side of my oil filter. I guess, in my naievity, I was simply "attracted" to it and would like to believe that it has some degree of value. Anyway, thanks again, and to others who also opined.
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 195.93.33.11
Posted on Tuesday, 03 February, 2004 - 07:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have often found that new products are invented to combat problems that do not exsist.

magnets seem to attract ( no apology for the pun ) more than their fair share of quackery I suspose due to the unseen power that it has.

I read of one device that magnetises the petrol thus giving more power and better ecomony.

The technical explaination was that because the fuel was randomly charged it would not burn as well as fuel that is polarised.

and of course by fitting the device you will save up to 25% or more in fuel bills. The advert always has an endorsement by some engineer.

If this was true it would be in a text book.

I once brought a gloo that was meant to repair worn rings by squirting it into the plug hole.

The explaination of how the stuff worked was very pausible until I found out a few years later from a Hepolite Rep who new lots about piston rings. he corrected my understanding of how rings wear.
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Robert Chapman
Frequent User
Username: shadow

Post Number: 29
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Friday, 13 February, 2004 - 21:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Now gentlemen, let me put the case for the defence.
I would not be so quick to right off the magnet idea,whilst I am the worlds worst synic when it comes to Automotive panacea I believe magnets have some merit especially when concidered for use on the R-R V8.
Time and time again I see Shadow/Spirit brake pump eccentric break up,in many cases the wear has taken place over some time and milage.Usually the filter has collected the larger parts but small particles get through and combined with particles from other areas eg lifters ,brake pump followers,rocker arm tips and piston rings(damaged by poor air filtration)and settle as metalic sludge in oil
ways and sump.A favorite place is in the drilling to the lifter bodies and in the block drilling between hollow head studs(that supply oil to rocker shafts).
Recently I have overhauled a Spirit engine where the owner was not so lucky and the brake pump eccentric tore itself and the pump follower to bits in a very short space of time,the small particles blocked the filter,the by pass opened and the larger particles destroyed the bearings(have photos and will try to put them on).
Large particles were inbedded in the main and big end bearings and consequently damaged the crank.The oil pump does not usually get damaged in these cases because clearences between gear and body and gear backlash are relatively high.
I put it to you that had this engine been fitted with this magnet the damage to the bearings at best could have been avoided or at least been minimised.I have seen and felt the strength of the magnet,it is about 4-5 sq in and is so strong it took a screw driver to pry it off a filter.
I am not sure the sump is the best place for it for a couple of reasons,A)If you put it on the outside of the sump,when you remove it all particles will be released and how will you get them out,B)It can,t be fitted in the sump for several obvious reasons C)The sump is to big an area with to much oil for the magnet to work on .
So I would suggest that in fact the filter is exactly the place for it,because A)ALL the oil has to pass within its field C)It will prevent the small particles blocking the filter and possibly opening the by pass D)All particles will be safely contained in the filter and removed from the engine before the magnet is removed therefore preventing any possibility of getting back into the system E) The oil is slowed as it passes through the filter allowing the magnet most time to act on the oil.
I would argue that this is in fact no gimmick and in the case of Shadow/Spirit engine would be cheap insurance.
My experience with these engines has been that top ring and groove wear shows that the air filtration system needs to be closely inspected for proper sealing.It could also be used on the 6 cylinder engines even though they have one of the most effective centrifugal oil filters already fitted(R-R call it a torsional vibration damper).
I rest my case.
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Carl Heydon
New User
Username: car

Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Saturday, 14 February, 2004 - 06:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John or Bill, Please tell me more about the Z9 adaptor. I do like the origional but it is a pain.
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Bill Coburn
Grand Master
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 110
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 14 February, 2004 - 08:27:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Gentlemen, I have given up watching television as I have more entertainment reading your exchanges! I have enrolled, David, for a correspondence course in tribology although I would have thought it would have a significant application in the adult industry. That aside, none of you (perhaps you are not old enough)have mentioned the magnetic drain plug - surely that would be a good first step. Any views please?
Carl's quest for a spin on filter adapter for the in line motors sent me scurrying to the last Praeclarvm with an article which pictures a scheme to use a Z9 spin on filter. I must say it looks about as appropriate for the engine (from the point of view of appearance) as a chrome air cleaner and a set of wobblers. No doubt it is more convenient (it would have to be)and does a great job but surely there is an adapter that will fit to the existing filter head onto which the Z9 will screw? I have one on my Armstrong Siddeley Whitley which I can replace in minutes with the original case and filter element if the dreaded concours people approach!
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Robert Chapman
Prolific User
Username: shadow

Post Number: 31
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Saturday, 14 February, 2004 - 12:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bill,
I have seen the adaptor John Dare purchased from Bill Vatter,this is an excellent piece of work and simply connects to the original head as you describe.Yes magnets have been used for years by many manufactures,BMC in their FWD cars and GM in auto-trans and power steering pumps. The trouble is they are very small and not powerful enough,and when placed in the sump not all the oil passes close enough to be cleaned by the magnet.Whilst it is true these magnets are fitted in the lowest area of the sump and the heavy metalic paticles sink to the bottom when the engine is stopped, this is not the case when the engine is running.This is why I believe the filter is the correct place for this new magnet(relatively small quantities of oil are slowed down and passed directly over it).
As I mentioned in my lasted post I am very cynical about these things but believe that all should not be discounted immediately(remember in the late sixties there was a device called Colour Tune,a glass spark plug that showed the colour of combustion) this may have been seen as a gimmick but even with Dyno's, Scopes and 4 gas analysers I still use mine today,it is still the only way to "see" individual cylinders burning and balance V8 carby mixtures and they only cost 80 AUS each today (two are needed).
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Bill Coburn
Grand Master
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 111
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 14 February, 2004 - 17:34:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Where are you Bill Vatter - I want one for a friend with a 4 1/2 litre short boot and full flow filter of course. To stretch the relationship further I wonder whether you would have a picture of the installation you could email me as I would like to show it in Tee One Topics! Cheers
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John Dare
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Posted From: 144.138.194.46
Posted on Monday, 16 February, 2004 - 17:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

O.K-O.K, Now EVERYONE wants one of Bill Vatters "spin on" oil filter adaptors which fit up so readily to the 6 cyl.R-R/B engine Fine - you all read about it here first, followed by the "clip-on" magnetic "Filter Mag" to complete the package. If you buy the adaptor then you have get the magnet too. Remember now- I get royalties on all of this!
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Bill Vatter
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Posted From: 68.211.34.76
Posted on Thursday, 19 February, 2004 - 23:54:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill Coburn:

Where am I? Right here in Atlanta getting ready to install a freshly overhauled engine in my Silver Wraith. It is amazing how many extra little tasks appear when the engine is out!

I have responded to your email with additional information and a picture. Unfortunately I am currently out of stock. I need to make another production run, which must be delayed until I get my car put back together. Too many tasks; not enough time. I am sure you understand that problem.

Filter adapters is something I have been doing on the side since others have seen the installation on my car and asked me for an adapter. Recently I became ambitious and advertised. Now I have production problems. Really sorry about that, but I think I will eventually get caught up.

I can provide an adapter for the single bolt style filter head used from the beginning of the R-type cars in 1952 and also for the six-bolt filter heads used on the previous 4.5 liter engines in the short-boot cars. Corresponding Silver Wraith engines are the same, but perhaps not so important to convert since the standard filter is not so difficult to remove.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 123
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 20 February, 2004 - 02:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

A couple of points:

First, the R-Type filter is easy to change. Ease of changing cannot be the issue here. The spin-off types promise better filtration and, importantly, they hold the oil in the system by a non-return valve. Those two factors will sway me, but I do like to inspect the bottom of the original cannister and open up the gauze at each change to see what's going on, kind of like a baby's nappy... That is messier and less revealing when opening up a sealed spin-off filter. The original cannister and filter come easily through the windscreen washer bottle aperture when the twin SUs are fitted. There is no need to disturb the generator as called up in the manuals.

Secondly, if the magnet collects the iron (nb not white metal), so far so good. However, if the magnet either falls off or is disturbed during service for any reason, surely a pile of dangerous gunk will instantly hit the bearings. Would not an array of magnets in the sump be safer ?

In balance, I like the idea of a spin-off filter but without magnet clip-ons.

Just a few thoughts.

RT.
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John Dare
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Posted From: 144.138.194.225
Posted on Friday, 20 February, 2004 - 07:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have now UPdated to the Filter-Mag "competition" version magnetic "clip-on" which is SO powerful it needs a central "jack" screw which must be screwed down to break the magnetic field. Will it fall off? N.B.L! I have never had anyone, anywhere (pro. or amatuer) tell me that changing a Mk6/R type filter was "easy", but if we are to accept that it IS easy then all I can say is - NOT as easy as changing the spin-on type and a whole LESS messier too!. Bill Vatters adaptor gives you the superior spin-on filter without the "Monty Python" cum "Allis-Chalmers" plumbing kit which I believe comes from over Europe way. As for removing and replacing my sump to inspect/clean a collection of magnets I guess I am just not masochistic enough to be "attracted" to such punishment!
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Bill Vatter
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Posted From: 68.211.34.76
Posted on Friday, 20 February, 2004 - 09:35:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,

I have had the sump off my SW old engine several times. Not really that difficult. You have to have the front wheels turned hard to one side to get the sump to clear the center ball joints of the steering tubes. Also the lower flywheel cover needs to come off so that the sump can move rearwards before dropping down. Nevertheless why do it? Many cars have a magnet on the drain plug. It seems to me a magnet could be attached to the inside of the drain plug of this engine.

Richard,

I agree that changing the filter on an R-type car can be an acquired skill for those with above average manual dexterity and small hands. However, it will not come out through the windscrean washer basket on the cars I have seen.... it is just too big. Maybe you have a modified basket, or some aftermarket part there. The early Mk VI cars had no washers, but people retrofitted different components there. My own car had a Cloud washer bottle and basket fitted, which I removed because it was not correct.

On more than one occasion of changing filters on other cars (not my own which has a single carburetor ), I have left the canister in place, drained the oil from it, wiped it out with a clean rag (checking for debris) and installed a new cartrige..... All from below with the car on a lift and the undershield removed while the can was trapped in there above the side steering tube and the dirty oil was running up my arm to settle in my arm pit. That does not fit my definition of an easy job.

The factory book says to loosen the dynamo and swing it in against the engine to get a little extra space to pull the can out in the front. That can work, but not if the car has an A/C compressor in that location, which several cars in my neighborhood have. (Incidentally the better location for an A/C compressor is on the left because it does not load the water pump bearing as much when its belt is pulling from over there.

Now the really hard one is the six bolt filter on the short-boot cars. I literally took half a day to get a filter changed on a car like that. The six bolts had to be wrench turned all the way out, and several would only go 1/12 turn at a swing, requiring the wrench to be flipped over every pull. My half-day time quote included the periods when I had to pull out because my hand was cramping up.

Anyway that is my opinion: Changing filters on twin carburetor cars is not an easy job, and on the short boot cars it is downright difficult.
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John Dare
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Posted From: 144.138.194.115
Posted on Friday, 20 February, 2004 - 17:06:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thats right- WHY remove and replace the sump every so often in order to inspect a bank of magnets?. It seems to me that part of owning a Rolls-Royce dictates that we have to impress lesser mortals with legendary tales including how "hard" it is to do this or that, even something a simple as a oil filter change. To quote Sir Humphrey Appleby once again (when responding to Jim Hacker PM) "But if you make it simple, they will UNDERSTAND it!". In other words, if you make filter changes easy, then "they" ( the hoi polloi ) might be able to "do" it too, no differently to say, a Falcon or Metro. Ergo, best we keep it hard (and messy) eh?

(Message edited by admin on April 05, 2004)
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 195.93.33.11
Posted on Saturday, 21 February, 2004 - 00:32:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I read Mr Chapman's reasons for magnets on filters and he has sold me the idea. makes sense to me and it can't do any damage.

My Merc van has a small sump pan that can easily be removed. It is a nice design touch.

But in 200,000 miles it has been off once--- lots of diesel engine oil sludge. So no big deal in making sump removal not so easy.

Oil filters should always be easy to change and I could scream at some of the stupid places that designers put them. ----- My back would be better for it.

I don't mind if only underside access is possible but plently room to do the dirty deed is a must.

The ones I like best are where you can kick a bowl under the car and spin the filter off by hand from the top. With lots of room for my filter wrenchs for the tight ones.

Old loud speaker magnets are usefull I have one in my parts cleaner.

"pair of gear" oil pumps survive large debris because the oil goes around the outside of the gears not between the gears. Best type of pump to use in engines for this reason.

I have seen engines do exactly what Mr Chapman describe as with the Spirit engine. Once the chain reaction starts it can be very quick ---- a matter of minutes in some cases. Bad luck most times.

I sometimes think the mechanics make things out to harder so to deter DIYers.

I have found that lots of customers can DIY the car but would rather I got dirty. So I never say a job is hard --- just dirty work.

There again I get a minority that no matter how well you explain they don't understand and they cause the most problems.

best one was a man who broke the filter head off the engine ( Peugeot 504 ) with a hammer then drove the car 2 miles to a garage to get it repaired. The garage refused so he then drove home to find the police charging him over the oil on the highway. The owner of the car had to pay the Enviro Services to clean it up ---cost lots
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 124
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 21 February, 2004 - 02:31:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill Vatter,

On every R-Type I have seen, the filter comes out throught the standard washer bottle frame. The frame side straps are hinged, so you simply fold the front frame strap to the rear of the car on its hinges. With the front metal strap out of the way there is plenty of room to remove the cannister. I can do the R-Type at least as quickly as the spin-off on my Turbo R. The spin-off filter on my 6 cylinder BMW is far worse than either the R-Type or Turbo R as there is no room for a clamp. The only way I do it is to drive a screwdriver right through the filter and turn it. Messy, but it always works, even on a Turbo R if you can't find your filter clamp wrench. Old Holdens had a dream spin-off filter with a 3/4 inch nut integral with the bottom of the filter to tighten and remove it.

I agree, a sump plug magnet would be a useful experiment, and you would see instantly if there is a sudden change in the rate of build up of magnetic debris indicating a problem.

PS sump removal is even easier than stated. I don't even need to fiddle the steering on mine. It's probably a good thing to whip it off for a thorough clean every 50,000 miles or so as non-ferrous sludge does build up especially in the well below the rear main drain tube. A sacreligious tip: I use no sump gasket at all, just silicone form-a-gasket. The seal is perfect, and much better than with a gasket which has two interfaces instead of only one interface without.
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John Dare
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Posted From: 144.138.194.98
Posted on Saturday, 21 February, 2004 - 06:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

As I understand it, Bill Vatter is having difficulty keeping up with demand for his oil filter adaptor which does not require "Cat" D9 style plumbing. I do not need a university degree to therefore conclude that demand exceeds available supply. By inference then, the product MUST be (generally) perceived as good or at least MORE good than "bad". Ergo.. we have the question. WHY are people BUYING it??. Probable answers, not necessarily in stated order. 1/ Ease of changing compared to standard. I will donate $2000 to any charity anywhere in the world if ANYone/ANYwhere can remove and replace a standard MK6/R type filter as quicky as I can remove/replace my spin-on filter. Being a simple case of "no contest" I would be reluctant to readily accept the challenge given that the outcome is entirely predictable. 2/ LESS mess ocassioned by oil drips/spillage. 3/ Better filtration than stock cartridge insert. 4/ Cheap (A$8.00) and readily available spin-on replacement. 5/ Less visits to the local Chiro. whose Merc. you wont contribute to so much!. Despite all of these reasonable observations I am probably wasting my time, so lets hear from the professionals and "real time" shop floor experts who work on these cars 40 plus hours a week. Also ask them.. clip a powerful custom made magnet on to the spin on filter (10 seconds) or remove/replace the sump and thats aside from any technical argument regarding the "ideal" location of any magnetic device designed to arrest non-ferrous metals.
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John Dare
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Posted From: 144.138.194.98
Posted on Saturday, 21 February, 2004 - 07:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Last post.Last line meant to read FERROUS metals. Too early in the (Sat.) morning for me when I should be sleeping in!
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Pat Lockyer
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Posted From: 81.131.52.219
Posted on Sunday, 22 February, 2004 - 05:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My thoughts on the filter magnetic thing for what it is worth.

Do not waste your time or money on this item.

If the oil & filter schedule are kept to they will more than take care of any particulates in the oil.

If there is any sludge or metalic bits in the start or finish of the oil drain when hot,then get to the route cause.

BMC had disaster running the engine & the gearbox in the same oil resulting in the magnet being fitted in the oil drain plug,& what bits there were too!
RR DO NOT.

Regarding the magnets being fitted to the moderns it the result of the milage being on some cars 20000+ for a oil changes also the gearbox & axle are not drained for the life or the car.

Fully Synthetic oil on them is a must.

I am sure the owners of these grand RR cars are not going to run thier cars to such high mileages before they do an oil filter change.

There are many other particulates that are NOT attracted to a magnet,alloys white metal phosphor bronze carbon etc these are just as harmfull to the moveing parts.
All these things have been taken in to account by the RR design engineers at the time with regard to the schedule time.

SPIN on filters are easy to use and are the way to go if the ellement type are hard to get.

Make sure the one way valve type is fitted to hold the oil in the unit if it is fitted on its side.

Keep it simple ROLLS ROYCE did.Happy Days.

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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 125
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 22 February, 2004 - 07:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

OK, this is an Australian site so... Fram CH810Z / Ryco R201V filter elements are available for R-Types etc over the counter at most major auto spares shops in Oz at a very reasonable price: element availability and cost are not an issue.

Removing the filter and cannister is easy and actually quicker than a spin-off: a spanner to loosen the domed top nut 1/4 turn, spin the assembly down, and take it out through the washer bottle cradle. Easy, and no access is required from below.

OK, cleaning the cannister, replacing the element and replacing the O-Ring on the car takes an extra 10 minutes or so, but the sump oil needs to drain longer anyhow, and it's a good diagnostic. This is not a speed trial afterall, so time taken to change the element is rather irrelevant. Like most 10 minute jobs, it takes hours to go to the retailer to buy the oil and filter, shuffle the cars around, assemble the tools and oil trays, dispose of the old oil, document the activity and so on, before you actually count the minutes to do the job itself.

So, now we use synthetic oil. It is tolerated by Crewe, but not recommended as such, but the consensus is that it is a good thing. The cost increase between mineral and synthetic oil makes the filter price seem completely irrelevant. However, Crewe have stubbornly refused to extend oil and filter change intervals, even on the newer cars, so a new filter and oil at maximum 5,000 miles - 8,000km is still the go (btw that equates to A$0.02 per km for oil and filter costs alone !). Such low change intervals make a mockery of incremental further filter improvements, magnets and the like. After all, ferrous deposits are unusual in these motors unless failure is imminent or a rough overhaul has just been done. Non-ferrous stuff comes around all the time, and only a good filter will catch it.

The big improvement came with the full flow arrangement over 50 years ago. Maybe the 95% rule applies. Maybe a spin-off works a little better - I hope so. Magnets ? Hmmn. Again, no damage but probably no benefit with such low-mileage changes. With a motor in good condition, I never see metallic particles in a filter changed at 5,000 miles or less.

I shall try a spin-off filter for sure, despite its awful looks (needs at least a black spray paint before fitting - adds time) and the fact that I have 20 years' supply of original elements stored in my garage.
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Ashley James
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 195.149.1.36
Posted on Sunday, 22 February, 2004 - 07:30:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I buy Fram filters that look very similar to the original they are about 3.00.

Richard I cannot believe you are still arguing this one, you've been on the BDC and the RREC with the same message.

Fact is the spin-off is superior in every respect.

I like the fact that the oil pressure is up almost immediately the engine is running. I always worried at the delay with the original.

Ashley
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 126
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 22 February, 2004 - 07:45:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ashley, my point, and I agree with your sentiment, but to be fair there is an immediate visual difference between the filter cannisters of the time and the spin-offs. By the way, what is "this one" and what is "still arguing" ? I have none of either.

Performance is all. The rest is largely irrelevant, except that some spin-offs do look awful. Be aware. I was chastised in the 1970s for merely having inertia reel seat belts installed on my R-Type. The purists ruled then. I even know people who still foolishly advocate quarter-length Brichrome cylinder liners in these motors. Now that is total rubbish. I even get into trouble for preferring a Crewe Turbo V8 to a Chev 350 on this site these days. Gently, Bentley.

BTW: the oil pressure on my R-Type bounces up to 30 psi in about 2 seconds even after 6 months' disuse. That's because my R-Type is 20,000 km away from where I now live, and I start it myself only on visits (my dear Dad drives it every 12 weeks, bushfires permitting).
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John Dare
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 144.138.194.162
Posted on Sunday, 22 February, 2004 - 10:11:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My challenge stands; $2000 to any charity if ANYone can change a stock standard Mk6/"R"type filter insert quicker than I can change the Z9 spin-on unit as fitted to Bill Vatters adaptor. Naturally, each contestant will "prime" their respective cannister/filter with oil! As for the process being "easier" (notwithstanding the TIME issue) I invite comments from professional R-R/B specialists who work on these cars on a daily basis. As for the degree of mess (oil drips/spillage) with standard filter versus the spin-on unit, the point hardly warrants any serious comment. And NO you dont have to "paint it (the Z9) black" for there is a German/Austrian(?) equivalent that is already black if thats your thing. BUT I prefer the standard "Ryco" Z9 in light grey. Why so? Well, being a thinker, I realized that IF there were any oil leaks (from filter head area) they would be more visibly apparent upon a light rather than black colored surface. Dont feel embarrassed.. no-one else thought of this either!
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bob uk
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 195.93.33.11
Posted on Monday, 23 February, 2004 - 02:50:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I recently I saw a coachbuilder who makes alloy over wood bodies for vintage and veteran cars.

His carpenter was using a De Walt cordless electric plane his view is that why make life hard and he can do a better job using the lastest high tech stuff. He uses a lazer, string and chalk for alignment-- a mix of old and new.

If we go too far down the road of originality at all costs we miss out on the benefits of modern technology.

A lot of new parts for old cars are made using CAD/CAM --- I do the CAD bit for a living --marine stuff.

On marine stuff we are filter mad because getting it wrong can cost serious money and lives.

The actual filter inside modern spin on is better.

It filters better with less resistance.

I try to use the biggest filter possible the extra capacity helps. Also the bigger can more heat lost from the oil. Which can help in hot climates. But there is always a compromise in the end.

And it is only a filter not the whole engine.

In the UK when cars are shown ( not concours ) Judges like the cars that are driven rather than the trailered cars and accept and often endorse such mods as filters.

Where do you draw the line?

Keep the flavour but improve the cake.

Also period mods are accepted and then we get into the world of period accessories.

As long as the quality is up to snuff then I am happy with most mods.
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John Dare
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 144.138.194.196
Posted on Tuesday, 24 February, 2004 - 20:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Speaking of those dreadful and heinous "non- authorised" modifications, viewers should refer to the much modified/customised 1983 "Bentley" Turbo. feautured in the current edition of "The Flying Lady" being the official journal of the RROC (U.S). This "sanction/adaptation" has been created in the cradle itself (ENGLAND!) by one Andy Saunders who must be a real artisan what with "Range Rover" head/tail lamps/"Volvo" seats/ "MG" front spoiler, the list goes on with a "chopped" top (lowered roofline) which is no problem unless you have an enlarged cranium. "R/Rover" cooling "gills" ala current model replete with "Mag" wheels, lowered body (i.e "challenged" standing height) and MUCH chrome!. This is one mean and lean "low rider" which could park proudly beside a new "Phantom". If you think this is the bad news then you need the GOOD news! The good news is that I know of a similar "concept" car being created by one of the states leading "Custom" car builders right here in our picturesque Mornington peninusla and for some inexplicable reason I was called upon by the burly builders (also the local "Ford/Holden" wreckers) to give the project my "blessing". The car is a 1986 "Bentley" Turbo (ex H/Kong) and purchased apparently with a blown motor. When I expressed sorrow about the motor the rather large (larger than ME!) "mechanic" joked that soon it would have a REAL blown motor which I assume to be a Turbo (or Supercharged) 454 cu.in GM (good old cast iron!) engine sitting innocently on a pallet nearby. I tried hard not to grimace as the spray painter (even Bigger again!) asked if I liked the color to which all I could stutter was "Er.. Yes.. rather... what is it called may I ask?". "PARRA PIR-PULL"! came the triumphant reply susequently learning this to mean "Paralytic Purple". Figuring I probably had ONE last question to ask (before reviewing my dental insurance!).. I ventured... "Why did you choose THIS particular make/model of car for your exciting (gulp) project?". ANSWER; "This make and model arent worth much - mate!". What could I say?. What CAN I say?. At least he offered me the complete interior for $2500 and Ive supplied him with a pair of the superlative locally made (Chapman) vented front discs. DONE deal!! PS; I understand the completed car will feature as the lead/front cover car in the Oz magazine, "Street Machine". DO watch this space!
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Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 195.93.33.11
Posted on Friday, 27 February, 2004 - 05:41:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Small World ---Andy Saunders lives just down the road from me and always has something strange parked outside. The best was a speed boat with wheels on it and road legal.

I am surprised that there are not more customised RRs around.

I look forward to seeing a chopped and frenched Shadow in candy apple and flames.

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Ashley James
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 195.149.1.9
Posted on Saturday, 28 February, 2004 - 04:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Broughtons in Cheltenham (UK)have a customer who has fitted all the running gear from a Turbo R to his Shadow. The only give away is the flared wheel arches! 400BHP Shadow! Ashley
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 225
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 14 March, 2004 - 21:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Reverting back to the original topic, Robert Chapman has provided the following photographs of damage to a Silver Spirit engine caused by metallic particle contamination of the engine oil for our enlightenment.

1. Oil Filter Element showing metal particles filtered from the engine oil.

Filter

2.Crankshaft Journal Wear

wear 1

3. More Crankshaft Journal Wear

wear 2

4.Main Bearing showing wear and embedded metal particles

bearing wear

5. Damaged Camshaft

camshaft damage 1

6. More Camshaft Damage

damage 2

7. Similar Damage to Shadow II camshaft

Shad II

8. Damaged Hydraulic Pump cam Follower

pump follower

9. Metallic sludge build-up under hydraulic lifters

lifters

This obviously raises the question as to what is the condition of our own engines.

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Ashley James
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 62.252.40.74
Posted on Monday, 24 May, 2004 - 02:09:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Damage looks consistent with failed camshaft that a filter magnet will not prevent. Synthetic oil might be a better bet as it clings to surfaces longer than conventional oil, it gets there quicker because it is thinner on start up and it withstands higher temperatures and pressures as well as maintaining its viscosity better when hot. R-R recommend it for all their cars after a rebuild.

And it does not dissolve in petrol so piston rings last better despite automatic chokes.
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Martin Cutler
Frequent User
Username: martin

Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 01 December, 2004 - 11:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi guys,

I am just about to take delivery of one of Bill Vatters excellent filter adapters, and will now seriously look at fitting a magnet to the Z9 filter. Many years ago, when I rebuilt the MG motor, I fitted a magnet into the end of the sump plug. I am continually amazed at the amount of ferrous material it collects at each oil change. When it is on the magnet, it masses together like iron filings back at school. When you wipe them off with a rag, there is hardly anything to see in the oil.
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John Dare
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 144.138.194.6
Posted on Wednesday, 01 December, 2004 - 11:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

An excellent and most wise decision, Martin. I have one of Bill Vatters adaptors on the "R" type and I understand he has sold many in the USA. Even the U.K equivalent ("Flexolite")is doing VERY well in the U.K, as asute owners/repairers realize the obvious benefits. And when the U.S made "Filter Mag" is installed they sense the additional benefits, just as you did when reflecting upon the magnetized sump plug in the "MG".

(Message approved by david_gore)