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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1615
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 04 March, 2009 - 11:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

How about a poll on which fluids you prefer ?

To kick it off on postwar cars (R, T, TR), I use:

. Mobil 1 for the engine. Best 0W40 as on any modern car, but 5W50 (old-fashioned, but I still use it) or 0W30 would do at a pinch. At least ZDDP in the old stuff seems to have sorted itself out these days.

. Transmission (automatic): Transmax Z.

. Manual transmissions (heard of them ?) 15W40

. Power steering: LHM

. Final drive: EPX 80W90. The bearing problems seem to have been quietly sorted out.

. Coolant: 50% IAT ethylene glycol, or 60% best

. Bijur: engine oil

. Dampers: straight 20

. SU dampers: LHM or whatever you use in the transmission will do

R.
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Mark Aldridge
New User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 09:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,in UK,Shadow1,Bentley8,BentleyS1 :
Engine 20w50 OR 15/40 winter(with STP in S1)changed 3000miles or 6 months
Auto box Dexron3 changed 6000miles
Diff EP80w90 changed 12months or 6000miles
Dampers Dexron2
Bijur EP80w90
SU dampers 5w30
Coolant 50% traditional blue antifreeze changed 12 months

Mark
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Mark Aldridge
New User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 09:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Moderator Action - this post was moved from another thread to avoid duplication of this discussion

Richard, whilst undoubtedly synthetic and semi synthetic oils are superior to mineral oils we have found their use in old high mileage engines gave rise to high consumption and smoke which is not present with heavier (20/50 or 15/40) mineral oils. The engine is much cleaner inside on synthetic !!We have not tried the synthetic oil in Crewe engines as thes are high mileage also. Other observations appreciated.
Mark

(Message edited by david_gore on 05 March 2009)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1617
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

All reactions are taken with the greatest gratitude. I do apologise and submit that, after a severe bollocking from the UK on the Bijur, heavy 80 oil is probably best there.

LHM for the steering is my genuine crusade, but it is also asking for ridicule.
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1085
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard I have to ask why LHM? My efforts in the steering department particularly power systems concern sludging in the steering box/rack. The rack seems to have overcome the problem because something goes wrong with them fairly often and they get a good clean then. But owners forget that from Shadow on there is no filter to remove the nasties. I put a transmission filter in the reurn line and that lets me sleep at night (and sometimes in the day)but cars that have had no steering work since they were built in the seventies get pretty clagged up in the box. My lazy system is to rip off the pump and box and send them to Sydney from whence they return - pristine. At the same time I have a new high pressure hose made up and replace all the low pressure ones.

So,,,,, is the use of LHM an additional exercise I should take. Buying it in 5 litre containers from the local Citroen man is quite reasonable.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1618
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill, Dexron is an anti-lubricant, designed to create friction. In other words, it is a pseudo-lubricant which grates. It makes clutch plates of 3L80s grab rather than slip. By accident, it is put in steering systems as a cheap offering. Aircraft red oil and LHM are true hydraulic fluids better suited.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1619
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

ps: the blokes at Gulsons, Fyshwick, know you. Citis, Porsche and Bentley.
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1086
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hmmm just shows you can't get away with much in this town. Thanks for the info. Do we know what is in LHM?
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1087
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 01:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

More Hmmm. I now find that our boxes and racks have nitrile seals which I think is not compatible with LHM?? Is this so??

BBC
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1620
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 01:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Nitrile - Buna N (same thing) - LHM - ARO - OK.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1622
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 01:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Swallowing the gobstopper, LHM was designed specifically to be the best partner for Nitrile. ARO may be sufficient, but LHM is the daddy.
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Frequent User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 77
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 06:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

If I wanted to convert from Trans oil to LHM in the steering (Jaguar has done it for ages), do I just need to flush the system?

Lluís
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1088
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 07:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Lluis/ It seems I will be doing just that. My power steering man in Sydney is going to run some tests on the various seals he uses by soaking them in LHM. If that comes up clear I will certainly follow Richard's advice and flush my own system on the Spur and refill with LHM. Flushing is a good practice which I have been doing for years on other cars. It simply involves putting a length of clear plastic hose on the return line to the pump, lifting the tyres off the ground and while the engine is running have someone pour fresh oil into the pump reservoir while the wheels are turned from lock to lock slowly. I have always thought it was particularly important with the Saginaw boxes which as you know have a large hydraulic servo cylinder at the bottom of the assembly and it it is here that sludge accumulates. Years ago I had a '76 Shadow that the box had been allowed to accumulate this muck which is quite abrasive and the bottom of the cylinder actually wore to the point of it beiong out of round and would not hold pressure which was most disconcerting in the spectrum of steering positions! That required a new casing!
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Mark Aldridge
New User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 08:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,what is the steering filter that you use?

I notice that some oil companies market power steering fluid,is this LHM by another name.
Mark
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1089
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 09:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It is actually a transmission filter which contains a magnet as well as filters and available at Repco and the like. The oil in those bottles is the dreaded Dexron labelled as they are for the more dim owners who can't quite rmember which oil they put in where. The detail on the filters is somewhere in Tee One Topics.
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Paul Yorke
Prolific User
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 293
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 09:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Does anybody know if the hoses are compatible with LHM? I've had a few customers that have added LHM to their PAS systems and ended up with particles in the fluid, notchy steering, and fairly bad leaks.

I, like Bill, always flush and change PAS fluid regularly so I know that the systems weren't that dirty beforehand.

I'm fairly sure that the rack seals are happy with either fluids. My rack builder said they use the same seals on both types of systems, but recommend filling with the manufacturers preferred fluid when refilling – and to flush a R-R that has had LHM added and refill with the correct ATF.

Do ATF and LHM mix to form something more harmful than either? Maybe the dyes that they use don't mix, and coagulate?

Dirty ATF or dirty LHM are both bad for any systems.

I wonder if an insurance company might baulk at the wrong fluid being used, they love any excuse not to pay out! lol.

Engine Oils - matter of preferences and experiences really. These are just mine.

I prefer a 15/40 engine oil. Changed with filter @ 6000 miles or AT LEAST annually. Cars with 'dirtier' histories @ 3000 miles. I find the thinner synthetics make the V8's noisier/harsher sounding, especially if there are any tappets that are getting lazy.

Bore glazing seems to be more of a problem with the thin synthetics. Bore glazing can be a serious problem on newly built engines. If run initially on these oils the rings and bores do not bed in correctly and will not hold sufficient oil to either stop the pistons picking up, or will allow oil / gasses past the rings.

Unless you are doing vast annual mileages (not so feasible in the UK)there's not really much point in using an oil that is designed by lazy car manufacturers (or their advertising teams) to run for 2 years or 18000 miles. These same manufacturers give a spare bottle of oil with the car when new, because it WILL need topping up frequently.

Price wise, you can do 3 oil changes using, say, a 15/40 instead of a top of the range synthetic oil. I find R-R's respond better with more frequent TLC in the long run rather than using a more expensive 'add and forget' for 4 years / 24000m products. (long life oils and anti-freeze in particular )

Diff oils do not get changed often enough. EP80/90 changed every couple of years or 24000m

If it's x months or x miles – it's ALWAYS whichever comes first.
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Martin Cutler
Prolific User
Username: martin_cutler

Post Number: 112
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bill,

Penrite power steering oil is definitely not Dextron, different viscosity and all. As for LHM, keep us posted as to what your man comes back with, sounds very interesting. What Richard says is true, whilst friction modifiers have not been used in engine oils since the 70's, they are used in ATF's. The main difference between Dextron 3, LE95, Nissan matic, Toyota Type T, Mitsubishi Type M, etc, etc, is the level of friction modifiers.

As for engine oil in the one shot, I have 80/90 gear oil in B256MD, and I put some engine oil in B319LH just to flush it out, made a big mess all over the floor.

Cheers

Marty
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Chris Gillings
Frequent User
Username: chrisg

Post Number: 56
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, 05 March, 2009 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

So what did the Company have to say about this? Here's what they said in the early 1960s:

Pre-War Lubrication Table

General Lubrication Wall Chart
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1623
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 06 March, 2009 - 12:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Chris, that is an excellent chart indeed, and thank you.

Of course, the brands and patterns change over the years, but noteworthy in more recent times is that Crewe has been recommending Mobil 1 since its invention. What is staggering is the instant change that a low-viscosity synthetic oil makes to the V8s in particular. The hydraulic tappets are silent even when the motor is first started, and they feel warmed-up instantly. Overall, it certainly makes these quiet motors even quieter. Maybe that's a danger in a way, leading to complacency, but it can't be all bad. That the oil and filter change period is unaltered is surely an overkill, but then even quality oil is cheap.

On the Bijur, darn it. I have been using the wrong stuff for 40 years.

Suspension and brakes on SZs. HSMO, LHM: liquide hydraulique minérale – it is of course just that. It's a very pure mineral oil, and is compatible with almost any mineral oil. Crewe even recommends that engine oil or Dexron be used to take you home in an emergency, and all that is needed afterwards is a good clean out after the source leak has been fixed.. There has been quite some discussion in the US about using red aircraft hydraulic fluid instead, but then why does Citroën persist ? Thank the French that LHM will be around for a lifetime yet. Being such a straightforward compound is why it makes it so suited to the steering systems. Compatibility with all the Nitrile bits in our cars is promised. Strange is that, in my own limited observations on Citroën and Crewe cars (yes, we have a C5, but amazingly Citi has gone to glycol-ether fluid on the C5!! - maybe that’s because they are built in Kolin CZ), the brakes are mildly more prone to leakage with mineral oil than with brake fluid derivatives like RR363.
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Paul Yorke
Prolific User
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 294
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 06 March, 2009 - 12:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard's observations on the LHM v R363 leaks may seem odd considering the extra lubricants in it.

Maybe it's that fact that upon stripping an LHM calliper, the pistons will pull out with your fingers and be as good as new with a wipe. An R363 will be rusted in place, need blowing or "grease gunning" out and will be caked in a layer of crap. Probably the R363 can't GET out :-) lol.

I for one love LHM over 363 or dot 3 / 4. I haven't got a problem with PAS fluid. But Richard, if you can find a way to use LHM in the Shadow Hydraulics systems, I reckon you'll have a best seller!
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1624
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 06 March, 2009 - 01:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Quote:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
why LHM? My efforts in the steering department particularly power systems concern sludging in the steering box/rack. The rack seems to have overcome the problem because something goes wrong with them fairly often and they get a good clean then.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Bill, that actually sums it up. The steering racks on these cars are so pathetic as delivered that they need every pampering possible. That's why the package being tried includes a new seal type and LHM. LHM for the steering may be clutching at straws, but the theory looks good. Apart from the filter still in the shed, it is all in the scrappy Turbo R in Mugga Way as a testbed since August. With any luck, I'll be there next week to check out the progress.
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Mark Aldridge
New User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Friday, 06 March, 2009 - 05:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,do you have a part number and maker for the filter? Without these the Parts Factors in the UK are useless!
Thanks Mark
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 805
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 06 March, 2009 - 05:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well my original rack is still going running on ATF.
remember there is the right type and the wrong type of fluid to use.
Do remember that many of the rack failings are caused by sloppy maintenance within the dynamic run out with W/B putting great loading on at certain speeds.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 806
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 06 March, 2009 - 09:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David.
How about an oil and fluid section under the relevent types of model cars.
Ie Shadows 1 or Shadow 2.
Spirits Phantoms Clouds Etc Etc.
PS I promise not to tell about the successful running of DOT 5 Or the long life antifreeze!!!!!!!!! With the special UK products!
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 872
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 07 March, 2009 - 09:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Pat,

My personal opinion is that your suggested data is better placed in the technical library rather than being eventually buried in this forum's archives.

More importantly, what do other users of this forum think as this is their forum after all.

Regards David
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David Bailie
Experienced User
Username: davidb

Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, 07 March, 2009 - 01:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Perhaps the data could be edited, leaving out the unwise preferences and then placing it in the tech library.
David
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Stephe Boddice
Frequent User
Username: stephe_boddice

Post Number: 69
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2009 - 01:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Who will be the arbiter of "unwise preferences"?

Some of the changes were made by R-R but not publicised for fear of litigation from owners of earlier models. EP90 in the One-shot system is a good example where the change became standard only from the SC/S.

SB
www.boddice.co.uk

(Message edited by Stephe Boddice on 08 March 2009)
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Jan Forrest
Experienced User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 31
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2009 - 01:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

As far as engine oil is concerned I've always used 20W50 oil in cars of the Shadow vintage or earlier and changed both it and the filter every 3,000 miles. To my mind there's no avoiding the build-up of contaminants in the oil so it pays to flush them out on a regular basis. I also flush the engine - twice - just to be sure it's nice & clean before the new oils is tipped in. So far I've found that the new oil stays bright and clean until the next change If the engine is of a high mileage ~100k or so when originally purchased I also shove in a bottle (or two!) of Slick 50 at the 'first' oil change, which I do immediately as a matter of course when buying a pre-owned car.
I know there's been a lot of poo-pooing with regard to oil additives - in particular those that contain PTFE - but it has been my experience that engines run quieter and give better MPG both during the time that the S50 is in use and even afterwards.
Gearboxes, power steering, differential, etc get whatever the factory reccomends!
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1627
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2009 - 03:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Best drop this subject, and keep it far away from any Technical Library data save the recommendations in the workshop manuals as updated over the years by Crewe in service bulletins.

It seems that any attempt at recommendations in the Technical Library may be futile, alienate too many, and thereby destroy its credibility. The lubricants applied out there are far too varied for any consensus it seems. For example, I like 0W30 for all Crewe V8s in warm climates, and 5W50 for older cars. Some people consider that all nuts. We still hear of the old 15W40 types being used. I even know of some postwar 6s using straight 50 Vintage oil and even additives - an American thing. Are decisions simply driven by price ? Gearbox oil choices seem even more exotically dispersed. Let's abandon the thought of making our opinions into co-ordinated recommendations for now at least.

R.
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Jan Forrest
Experienced User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 32
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2009 - 04:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Obviously we can 'agree to disagree' about the weights, makes and types of oil we use in our cars. Especially as many of us live in areas of the world with widely differing climatic conditions.
eg. Sweden experiences 8 foot snow drifts throughout half the year, whereas the Caribbean hasn't seen temperatures under 20C for thousands (millions?) of years!
In the circumstances it is no wonder that we cannot expect a consensus of opinion on such a contentious and subjective ... subject.
Even so I think it would be useful to many if these factors are kept in mind and any advice taken with the proverbial 'pinch of salt'!
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Paul Yorke
Prolific User
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 298
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2009 - 10:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Are decisions simply driven by price ?

I should hope not! I can't imagine that could be a deciding factor in oil choice. People would be using sunflower oil if that were the case! :-)

As Jan says, everybody seems to have a choice for different reasons. Nobody is probably right or wrong, unless they've picked up the wrong info along the way. These are the things than need to be caught as well.

I guess peoples choice and a brief reason is an excellent springboard for others to make a decision from. I always think it's best to learn by others experiences ( and mistakes ) but then decide for yourself.

Somebody saying they've tried OAT anti-freeze to save changing the coolant so often has brought to light other people disastrous experiences with it and has probably saved untold misery and expense.

Somebody else using a wrong oil, just because that's what they've always used, will hopefully save them time and expense in the future.

Nobody should be worried about being flamed for giving their personal suggestion and opinion, if it saves themselves or others from trouble later on, it's got to be good – hasn't it?
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 808
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Monday, 09 March, 2009 - 05:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Paul, you say "Are decisions simply driven by price?"
Well no,however yes in some respects, you see both my Shadows are running LPG,the Shadow 2 with now two well made mixers and just one vaporizor[twin diaphrams] starts in all weathers on LPG,no petrol needed, the price saving is considerable,so the desision is to update the SS1 shortly.
Driven by price.

Now the Antifreeze, not cheep but long life and the universal qualitys of the type we use is just something special,no damage over time so far to any hoses or the neopreane liner seals etc.
The coolant is as clear as day.
Of course there was no corrosion in the first place and distilled water has always been used.
IMO the old short life type was a failing in itself if it was not changed at the short prescribed time.
Many get overlooked with a cooked motor and failed thermostat,melted pellets to show.

Products do move on and some contradict the makers recomendations.
One of course is the unleaded fuel not that it is problematic to this mark.
But u/l has not been a problem that was first thought it would be.
Another is the oils wether it is engine, transmission, ATF, PAS Etc Etc.
The modern type semi or fully synthetics will stop sludging and gumed piston rings with little wear taking place over thousands of miles.
Some modern oils with good filtration only need changing at 20,000 miles or the required time interval.
All good value Imo.
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Stefan Morley
Prolific User
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 135
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Friday, 30 October, 2009 - 08:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

I'm looking through the forum at all the comments on Coolants. Still lost. OAT, HOAT and IOT. Problem is not all coolant manufactureres seem to talk exactly the same language so trying to decipher what they are actaully making to determine suitability becomes a pain.

Couple of months back I did a reverse flush and put Tectaloy 90 Plus in. http://www.tectaloy.com/images/documents/TECTALOY%2090%20PLUS%20RADIATOR%20COOLANT.pdf

I'm about to put a new thermostat and pressure bottle cap in, based on another thread suggesting my temperature is moving a little too much. I will have to decide what coolant to put in as well as possibly another fush if I change coolant type.

What Australian, off the shelf coolants are suitable.

Cheers
Stefan
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Stefan Morley
Prolific User
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 136
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Friday, 30 October, 2009 - 08:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Sorry,

The last of the three should have been IAT (in organic technology I assume).

Stefan
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Peter Maclaren
Experienced User
Username: ludo

Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 08:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Is it just me or are others also missing Richard's response to Stefan's question regarding coolants?

I have the same problem as Stefan in that none of the products available here in NZ that I have seen so far, have descriptions that seem to match RR requirements.
I certainly don't want to put a wrong type of
product in and risk long term damage.
Your advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks,Peter
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Stefan Morley
Prolific User
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 137
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 01:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

Not sure if anyone has looked, irrespective of the reccomended coolant being availbale, ICI has been sold and no longer exists in its former guise.

Spent a few fruitless hours talking to Nulon, Techtaloy and Penrite. Initailly all three suggested HOAT based on the year. Only Penrite suggested something suitable for wetliners approprate for Diesel engines in trucks. The other two wanted little to do with anything beyond that.

Also fundamentally there are only three actual manufactures in Oz with all the different brands effectively coming from these three sources.

I have read that the coolant difference for modern coolants for wetliners is about a formulation that prevents micro pinhole erosion happening on the liner wall. Apparently caused by micro bubbles eroding the liner wall. The focus doesnt seem to be on the protection of silicone seals.

From what I can gather HOAT is a combination of IAT and OAT. Not much more was forthcoming. But if its a combination then the IAT should be available if you irritate a manufacturer enough.

Rain water is looking good...........

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
Prolific User
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 138
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 01:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Additionally,

The fundamental reason for the migration to HOAT and OAT is to increase the life of the coolant. Thats fair enough, apparently the motivation is about being environmentally friendly, less coolant changes means less going back into the environment.

Fair enough; if it does the job.

Thing that worries me, most people are reasonably kind to their cars. Seeing a number of articles, specifically targeting coolants. Then there are any number of sad cases where people have taken photos of the weep holes on their block not nessecarily conneting it with coolant.

One wonders how many of those photos are just wear and tear and how many are related to many years of the wrong coolant.

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
Prolific User
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 139
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 01:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This might be of interest.

http://forum.chryslerminivan.net/showpost.php?p=112519&postcount=1

Interesting to note that they suggest HOAT is yellow. Keep in mind this is a forum in the states. The three companies I rang up confirmed the HOAT they are selling in Oz is green. Same colour as the older IAT.

However they dont protect in quite the same way.

Still no closer to a resolution but least a bit more educated.

Stefan
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Paul Yorke
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Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 477
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 06:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Stefan, Unfortunately different countries use different colour identifiers. (And some in the same country to!)

DON'T use anything marked silicate free - Organic Acid Technology - Hybrid Organic Acid Technology (HOAT) - Nitrated Organic Acid Technology (NOAT)- SUPER LONGLIFE - 5 years protection.


You need to buy an antifreeze which is marked up as an IAT ethylene glycol product. In the UK it will almost definitely be about 1/2 the price of the other anti-freezes. It will probably say something like "2 years protection"

Don't use hard water out of your tap if it leaves limescale deposits. (check your kettle)

Good luck! :-)
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 140
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 06:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul,

Seems OAT and HOAT is pretty much the only things available. Looked into the older ethelyne glycol as opposed to the newer polyethelene glycol, seems part of the reasons for the change is related to toxicity.

People dont seem to be making IAT, least not in Oz.

There are two fundamental properties required, modify the boiling/freezing point and prevent corrosion. Am I right in saying the additives to prevent corrosion are the root cause of the issues for the wet liner seals? Not the additives to modify the freezing and boiling point!

Concur with water hardness. Especially from the Murray River. Tried to fix an electric hot water system few years back, had to throw it out, element was totally encased to the point couldnt be removed. Imagine the havoc that would play with a car.

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 141
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 06:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Peoples,

The other issue is, assorted coolants on the shelf very rarely state explicitly what technology is used. Instead extolling the virtues of assorted concoctions. Normally have to dig around with the manufacturer, even then... not easy.

Seems high time for some form of international standardization, considering the global market of cars.

Based on my queries, my bet is most cars in Oz are running HOAT. Weather they know it or not, because thats what has been advised from manufacturers of coolant for the year models involved.

Stefan
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Paul Yorke
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Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 478
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 07:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Looks like you'll have to start importing it. :-(

I'm surprised that it's not readily available over there.

Bill C? What do you use?
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Paul Yorke
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Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 479
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 07:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Stefan, Most cars in most countries are using HOAT.

But them most cars don't last more than 15/20 years so most other manufacturers older ones are probably dead and buried by now.

2 years protection vs 5 years protection is probably the most obvious give away???

You need a couple of Law Suits on Oz to put a rocket under their arses. Once they've had to shell out for a few R-R engine rebuilds because they've been 'lazy' with their labels - they will get somebody with some technical knowledge to work on it - instead of leaving it to the advertising and design department.

Chemical suppliers over here have to make safety sheets and chemical description sheets available. These often give more insight than the labels.
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Brian Crump
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Username: brian_crump

Post Number: 60
Registered: 2-2007
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 07:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You will find that all reputable manufacturers in Australia also provide safety and data sheets outlining chemical composition. They are there for the asking.
Regards,
Brian Crump
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 142
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 08:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul and Brian,

Most do have MSDS sheets. Its not clear even after reading sheets. Mainly because they seem to only make reference to the percentage of corosion prevention content. Assume they are trying to protect their trade secrets or maybe only share things that are of a major safety concern. Quite happy to show the products bulk composition and safety issues. However I assume its the corosion prevetative measures that are the problem for our older cars.

http://www.tectaloy.com/images/documents/TECTALOY%2090%20PLUS%20RADIATOR%20COOLANT.pdf

Look at page 1 of the above link. No details on the corosion inhibitors other than percentage, this is on Techtaloy 90k. Any of the other sheets on the same site say pretty much the same thing other than concentrations.

No reference to HOAT or IAT. The 1 year 20k stuff says pretty much the same as the 3 year 90k coolant. The 90k stuff was classifed as HOAT, should have asked specifically about the 20k stuff. But based on the sheets they are all the same thing.

To be fair Techtaloy is not unique. There is ambiguity across the manufacturers.

Stefan
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Bill Coburn
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Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1183
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 09:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul/ For years I have been using Castrol NF which Castrol believe is quite suitable for our engines. I buy it in 20 litre drums and with a 50% concentration a drum nicely does two cars. I'll get Tech Sheets from them tomorrow.
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 143
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 09:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,

Thanks. Just downloaded the Data sheet on the Castrol NF coolant from their site and it looks a lot more likely.

Is there any additive for corosion prevention you use.

Cheers
Stefan
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Bill Coburn
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Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1184
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 09:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

No Stef, the NF does it all!
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Jan Forrest
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Username: got_one

Post Number: 107
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 09:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If you suspect that there's been a buildup of limescale in your cooling sytems I have used the following method for years in several cars with no obvious problems. I've also used it to clean furred up kettles and even remove heavy corrosion from brass and copper items.
After bleeding and flushing the system add a couple of ounces of citric acid to the header bottle and refill with plain water. Run around with that in there for a few days/tens of miles while it dissolves the limescale then flush again before you put the anti-freeze in.
As citric is an organic acid it will normally only affect metal salts and oxides (although it doesn't seem to have much effect on iron oxide - i.e. rust) without touching pure metals.
For cleaning kettles you only need a heaped teaspoon to a full kettle of water, boil the kettle and leave to stand until cool then rinse out a couple of times. The only down side I have noticed is that it will effectively remove some cheap 'chrome' plating on kettle elements exposing the brass or copper underplating.
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 144
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 09:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,

Had a closer look at the Castrol data sheets.

Seems to be HOAT. Quote "combines the best aspects of both conventional and new organic inhibitor technologies". Also "Hybrid inhibitor technology".

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 145
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 09:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,

Is this tthe stuff your talking about?

application/pdfNF Coolant
8449_AntifreezeNF50_118960_200611.pdf (99.8 k)


Stefan
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 146
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 09:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jan,

Ha Ha. I meant the Hot Water System for the house not the car. Take a bit more care with the car.

Cheers
Stefan
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Jan Forrest
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Username: got_one

Post Number: 108
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2009 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Limescale is limescale. It doesn't matter where you find it, the cure is the same.
If you doubt the safety of citric acid just look at the list of ingredients on a bottle of cola or even a packet of crisps!
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 147
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 03 November, 2009 - 07:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jan,

Sorry, wasnt laughing at the treatment, if you saw the lump of rock in the HWS you'd understand why I was laughing. Pulled the cover off the heater and it was solid rock.

Stefan
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1185
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 03 November, 2009 - 09:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Stefan/ That is the same stuff after dilution with water to 50% concentration. I prefer to use
the concentrate (NF) as I can mix what I want and adjust the brew! I have again spoken to the Tech people at Castrol and they say I am on course with this stuff for our cars!

A piece of useless information. Apparently if you, for whatever reason, drink glycol a quick first aid measure is to get alcohol into your system quickly. This apparently will save your liver. In my case I think the latter is defunct any way!!
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Godfrey B-B
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Posted From: 86.174.79.26
Posted on Saturday, 18 February, 2012 - 04:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi all

Greetings from the UK. Can I just post this as a reminder to all those with our lovely cars, regarding the use of which type of antifreeze, hope the link works.

http://www.rrec.org.uk/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=141

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Godfrey B-B
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.174.79.26
Posted on Saturday, 18 February, 2012 - 04:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

For those people where my link regarding antifreeze, doesn't work, this is the rrec posting in full.

COOLANTS - This posting is a WARNING to ALL OWNERS.


The following comments are made with the reservation that they are my opinions only, that the only statements of fact are those relating to my experiences and that any remedial action taken by owners is at their own risk. Certain information has been withheld from the following story pending a possible legal action against the retailer and/or manufacturer concerned.

In July 2006 I serviced my Phantom III. The engine on this car had been totally rebuild, by me, in 2003 and, following a complete restoration of the rest of the vehicle, it won First Prize in the PIII class at the RREC National in 2005. The point being that the whole vehicle is in 90+ point condition. The coolant was two years old and therefore ready for replacement. My local auto spares store, part of a national (UK) chain, was out of stock of the standard own-brand antifreeze but was fully stocked with their own-brand 'Advanced Coolant'. The information on the label quoted the usual compliance numbers, offered extended coolant life, better anti-corrosion protection and stated that the product was suitable for older engines. On that basis, following a cooling system flush, I decided to use the new coolant.

After about 4 weeks I noticed damp patches on the floor beneath the engine. Further investigation revealed that coolant was leeching from almost every possible joint: both radiator top hoses, both radiator bottom hoses, the Calorstat joint in the header tank, drain tap joint in the bottom tank plus the weep holes in the block. Tightening joints and hose clips had no effect. My bodily fluids started to threaten sympathetic reaction with the coolant.

The new coolant was drained off, all hoses were replaced with new items and leaking gaskets replaced; obviously, the liner 'O' rings were left in situ pending further investigations. The engine was thoroughly flushed three times and the coolant replaced with a known standard anti-freeze from a different supplier. The result was that all of the coolant leaks stopped immediately. Unfortunately, after driving the car, there was evidence that minute amounts of oil had started to seep from at least three of the weep holes. Baring in mind that this a concours standard car the result was not entirely satisfactory.

Cutting a very long story short, I spent 5 months attempting to get the retailers to provide technical information of any changes made to the formulation of the 'Advanced' coolant compared with their previous offering. This process went through the usual steps of stonewalling, denial, acknowledgement of changes, admission of known problems and culminated with them blaming me for using their product without the manufacturer's recommendation. At this point I escalated the problem and am now in discussions at Board level within the company, which is, in turn, making the manufacturer (one of GB's main producers) provide evidence of the product's suitability or otherwise.

It turns out that the 'Advanced' coolant is manufactured using an Organic Acid Technology (OAT) corrosion inhibitor pack. The previous anti-freeze used an Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT). Evidence supplied to the retailer by the manufacturer admits that the OAT inhibited coolant is known to cause leak problems even in engines that do not use wet liners. The major fault with the inhibitor being that it attacks, amongst other things, silicon compounds. The most commonly used base compound for gasket sealants is silicon.

The immediate problem to the buying public is that the manufacturers and retailers are failing to disclose which inhibitor technology is being incorporated in their coolants/anti-freezes . Anybody replacing their coolant MUST investigate with the manufacturer which system is employed. It appears that OAT, and even HOAT (Hybrid OAT), inhibited coolant can be supplied under the same national compliance standard codes as the earlier IAT technology.

To date, the industry has overlooked the volume/number of old car users who may inadvertently buy their products and the potential risks that this consumption represents. In 2006 there was a survey conducted relating to the 'old car' movement and its contribution to the EU economy. In the UK this was co-ordinated by the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs (FBHVC), which is an umbrella body, funded by all of the recognised auto clubs, to fight poorly drafted EU automotive regulations that may accidentally drive old cars off the road. The findings, for the UK alone, were that this business sector contributed £2 billion (say $3.8 billion) to the UK economy alone. If the coolant manufacturers and retailers carelessly move to OAT inhibitors without considering the ramifications on the old car sector they may find that class actions through the courts will damage their Balance Sheets as much as these products do our old engines.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(ORIGINALLY POSTED 13TH SEPTEMBER 2007)

UPDATE

Well, folks, this has been a long time coming but the situation has eventually been resolved. For those who had the patience to follow this saga from its inception I can now give the definitive answer, which is: -

DO NOT USE OAT INHIBITED COOLANT IN YOUR ENGINE!

I eventually had a meeting with the National Technical Manager of the OAT coolant manufacturer. He was categoric in his statement that this 'technology' is inappropriate for use in any Rolls-Royce or Bentley engine other than the latest Bentley GT and Goodwood Phantom. NO 'IFS' and NO 'BUTS'!

Glossary to inhibitor terminology: -
IAT = Inorganic Additive Technology
OAT = Organic Acid Technology
HOAT = Hybrid Organic Acid Technology

The officially recommended coolant for V8 engines is a 50/50 solution of water and ICI 007/400F antifreeze. The latter is still available from any Official Bentley Main Dealer - see http://www.bentleymotors.com for contact details.

Changeover history: -

Car manufacturers.
The major car manufacturers were looking for improved coolant performance with, amongst other needs, extended product life. Engine designs were changed, including new seals, sealants and gaskets being introduced on a model by model basis. The manufacturers started selectively to introduce OAT coolants from about 1995 and virtually all engines manufactured since 2005 are now compliant with this technology.

Coolant manufacturers.
The primary impetus for the coolant manufacturers is to satisfy the needs of their main customers who are the car manufacturers. The secondary action is to then provide the after-market retailers with the same products so the market can continue to function. 'Old cars', in the eyes of both are deemed to be vehicles up to about 12 years old, this being the national average vehicle life in both the USA and Europe.

No consideration is given to vehicles of a greater age. The decline in the retail sales of IAT coolants is taken as an indication of falling demand despite the fact that the retailers are encouraged to promote H/OAT coolant. General ignorance of the product differences has not been considered, whether this related to the DIY mechanic or non-franchise auto shop operatives. Unless specific demands are made, by owners of really old cars, IAT coolants will soon be removed from the marketplace.

Summary: -
The old car movement in Europe has, fortunately, organised a strong lobbying group as a defence against EU bureaucratic stupidity. The EU legislation drafting machine is constantly putting forward proposals that would inadvertently remove old cars from the road. Representation has stopped this by providing accurate data on the contribution that this group of people make to the various national economies.

When the coolant manufacturer's representative was presented with a copy of the 2005 report he was astounded, not least by the apparent lost opportunity.

Result: -
1) The coolant manufacturer has undertaken to change its own and its retailers' labelling to emphasise the unsuitability of OAT in 'old cars'. At the same time it will clarify or reword its definition of 'old car'.
2) My issue was resolved without recourse the the courts, thus depriving the legal profession of a small income.
3) My car has regained its continence.
4) The coolant manufacturer may actually start to market IAT directly at the owners of those cars that need it.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Ernest Carty
New User
Username: edcarty

Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Sunday, 16 December, 2012 - 09:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi just a quick note re Antifreeze here in the UK modern cars use Long Life ie up to 5 Years use our RR and Bentleys should use The Crewe recomendation.Does anyone in the UK know what is used in LongLIfe?OAT,HOAT or IAT?Also were cylinder liner seals and gaskets ever modified throughout the lifespan of these V 8s.Any info will be interesting}}
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Brian Vogel
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Username: guyslp

Post Number: 161
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 17 December, 2012 - 01:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ernest,

You will generally have to check with the manufacturer to find out which type (IAT, OAT, HOAT) a given coolant is to be absolutely certain. Some provide this information on their websites.

The original formulation used by Crewe, at least through the SZ period, was a conventional IAT. This is still available and in the US there are a slew of "classic green" formulations [that phrase of which, at least as of this writing, is code for IAT].

My research shows that most, but not all, of the long life formulations are HOAT. DexCool-type long life formulations are OAT as are at least a couple of even newer ones.

There were several disasters, and well publicized ones, such as the one documented above when the DexCool (and closely related) OAT formulations were introduced. It appears that the "demon substance" in these formulations was 2-EHA, and this has been removed from virtually all but the DexCool-types as far as I can determine. Peak, which makes a conventional IAT antifreeze, also makes 2-EHA-free long-life and lifetime formulations.

I have been using long-life antifreeze in my SY series cars without difficulty and know of a number of owners who have been doing the same in SY and SZ series cars for periods spanning 3 years and up without issue. All have avoided using any DexCool formulations.

This is another of those issues that I don't think will ever be "settled," regardless of what hard data is available. You will need to do your own reading, assess what you feel the risks are, and proceed accordingly. It has taken on a life of its own along with its companions "ZDDP in oil is essential" and "ethanol is the damnation of all things automotive".

Brian
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richard george yeaman
Frequent User
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 73
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 18 December, 2012 - 01:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi all.

I drained and flushed the coolant system on SRH 19529 about three weeks ago. I used a 50/50 mix of lomg life OAT antifreeze and De Ionised waer, After reading some of the above posts i went in to my garage pulled the car back a couple of feet and sure enough a pool of red liquid on the floor this car leaks OIL and ATF but up till now no water so i have drained the expensive coolant mixture and have purchased a replacement Comma Super Coldmaster BS.AFNOR NFR 15-601 This is Pure concentrated ethylene glycol. I havent installed it yet will await some advice/help.

Cheers.

Richard.

Ps. HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO YOU AND YOURS !!!!!
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 426
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Monday, 14 January, 2013 - 10:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just a point about the use of thicker oils in high(er) mileage engines.
Apart from the Shadow I also own other cars of course. One of them was until recently a turbo diesel Toyota Estima Emina 4-wheel drive which has since been replaced by a Lucida variant of the same model.

After changing the engine oil with the recommended 10W40 semi-synthetic multigrade I went on a jaunt down to the environs of Oxford. I then made a 'side trip' to Belgium via Dover, stopping half way back to Oxford. The total mileage covered was in the order of 600+ miles (under 1,000 Kms). It was at this point that I noticed a strong knocking from the engine which turned out to be a dangerously low level of oil in the sump starving the engine of lubricant under certain circumstances of cornering, accelerating and/or braking. It needed 3 litres to bring the 5 litre sump back to the correct level. That's how much oil had disappeared, probably through the exhaust.

On returning home I changed the oil and filter once more, but this time with a 20W50 oil from B&Q (not the obvious choice as it's a DIY store mainly selling kitchens, lumber, gardening materials & plants, etc)which only cost £10/5litres. The level then remained rock solid at the full mark for the next 3,000 miles before it was changed again.

Now, I'm not suggesting that this might happen in a higher mileage Rolls Royce V8 or earlier engine, but it could, couldn't it? It's definitely not the kind of risk that I'm willing to take with such an expensive engine to replace or overhaul, so I've used the same oil for the last 3 oil changes and SRH24518 seems to run quite happily on it. I know that oil technology has moved on in the 30, 40, 50 or more years since our cars were lovingly built, but is it worth experimenting with unproved lubricants unless someone else can show that they have with no deleterious effects over a significant time/mileage?

Ps. Is it just me or do you find that this site has been almost glacially slow of late?
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Geoff Wootton
Frequent User
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 52
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 15 January, 2013 - 02:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Jan, I agree with you on using standard 20W50. The important thing is to check the API "Service Symbol Donut" is present on the product label. Seems pointless buying more expensive oil if the budget oil meets the spec anyway. Far more important is regular oil changes.

I have at times considered synthetic oil, but your experience adds weight to sticking with the tried and tested 20W50.

Regards the slowness of the site, yes I have noticed. This morning however it is at it's usual lightning speed.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1187
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 15 January, 2013 - 07:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jan - no problems so far on this side of the world. Perhaps you have some problems on your side with system congestion.
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 428
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 15 January, 2013 - 11:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Although virtually all of the regular users of this forum will be aware that the original recommendation for engine oil from RR/B for Clouds, Shadows, etc. was the then standard 20W50 many owners of older cars may be tempted by the improved lubricants that have come on the market in the intervening decades.
All I can say to them is to keep a keen eye on the level in the sump if you are; preferably every 100 miles/klicks or so. I've seen some later Spirits and Wraiths being sold with well over 100K miles on the clock which may not react well to significantly lower viscosity oils!

Ps. The site is responding much faster today

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