Post Number: 50
|Posted on Sunday, 25 March, 2007 - 11:22 am: |
COOLANTS - This posting is a WARNING to ALL OWNERS.
I have just picked up on the Peter Mitchell posting (RROC) of 11th March relating to coolant loss from the weep holes on his Shadow.
The following comments are made with the reservation that they are my opinions only, that the only statements of fact are those relating to my experiences and that any remedial action taken by owners is at their own risk. Certain information has been withheld from the following story pending a possible legal action against the retailer and/or manufacturer concerned.
In July 2006 I serviced my Phantom III. The engine on this car had been totally rebuild, by me, in 2003 and, following a complete restoration of the rest of the vehicle, it won First Prize in the PIII class at the RREC National in 2005. The point being that the whole vehicle is in 90+ point condition. The coolant was two years old and therefore ready for replacement. My local auto spares store, part of a national (UK) chain, was out of stock of the standard own-brand antifreeze but was fully stocked with their own-brand 'Advanced Coolant'. The information on the label quoted the usual compliance numbers, offered extended coolant life, better anti-corrosion protection and stated that the product was suitable for older engines. On that basis, following a cooling system flush, I decided to use the new coolant.
After about 4 weeks I noticed damp patches on the floor beneath the engine. Further investigation revealed that coolant was leeching from almost every possible joint: both radiator top hoses, both radiator bottom hoses, the Calorstat joint in the header tank, drain tap joint in the bottom tank plus the weep holes in the block. Tightening joints and hose clips had no effect. My bodily fluids started to threaten sympathetic reaction with the coolant.
The new coolant was drained off, all hoses were replaced with new items and leaking gaskets replaced; obviously, the liner 'O' rings were left in situ pending further investigations. The engine was thoroughly flushed three times and the coolant replaced with a known standard anti-freeze from a different supplier. The result was that all of the coolant leaks stopped immediately. Unfortunately, after driving the car, there was evidence that minute amounts of oil had started to seep from at least three of the weep holes. Baring in mind that this a concours standard car the result was not entirely satisfactory.
Cutting a very long story short, I spent 5 months attempting to get the retailers to provide technical information of any changes made to the formulation of the 'Advanced' coolant compared with their previous offering. This process went through the usual steps of stonewalling, denial, acknowledgement of changes, admission of known problems and culminated with them blaming me for using their product without the manufacturer's recommendation. At this point I escalated the problem and am now in discussions at Board level within the company, which is, in turn, making the manufacturer (one of GB's main producers) provide evidence of the product's suitability or otherwise.
It turns out that the 'Advanced' coolant is manufactured using an Organic Acid Technology (OAT) corrosion inhibitor pack. The previous anti-freeze used an Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT). Evidence supplied to the retailer by the manufacturer admits that the OAT inhibited coolant is known to cause leak problems even in engines that do not use wet liners. The major fault with the inhibitor being that it attacks, amongst other things, silicon compounds. The most commonly used base compound for gasket sealants is silicon.
The immediate problem to the buying public is that the manufacturers and retailers are failing to disclose which inhibitor technology is being incorporated in their coolants/anti-freezes . Anybody replacing their coolant MUST investigate with the manufacturer which system is employed. It appears that OAT, and even HOAT (Hybrid OAT), inhibited coolant can be supplied under the same national compliance standard codes as the earlier IAT technology.
To date, the industry has overlooked the volume/number of old car users who may inadvertently buy their products and the potential risks that this consumption represents. In 2006 there was a survey conducted relating to the 'old car' movement and its contribution to the EU economy. In the UK this was co-ordinated by the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs (FBHVC), which is an umbrella body, funded by all of the recognised auto clubs, to fight poorly drafted EU automotive regulations that may accidentally drive old cars off the road. The findings, for the UK alone, were that this business sector contributed £2 billion (say $3.8 billion) to the UK economy alone. If the coolant manufacturers and retailers carelessly move to OAT inhibitors without considering the ramifications on the old car sector they may find that class actions through the courts will damage their Balance Sheets as much as these products do our old engines.
I believe Bill Vatter, in RROC postings, has already coined the warning slogan:
If it is RED - STOP
If it is yellow - proceed at your own risk
If it is green (or blue) - it is OK to use FOR NOW.
Make sure you check.
This information has been posted on the following sites: -
RROC - www.rroc.org
RROC (Aus) - www.rroc.org.au
RREC - www.rrec.co.uk
RRBEW - www.rrbew.co.uk
Post Number: 682
|Posted on Sunday, 25 March, 2007 - 05:07 pm: |
Stephe i have heard of cars with wet liners and other parts leaking when the incorrect antifreeze Ie OAT has been used, not the long life Hybrid HOAT.
This HOAT has been reported by one to damage the wet liner motors this just is not true.
The difference between OAT 'advanced' and HOAT antifreeze is like chalk and cheeze.
Have heard of the failings of trying to put the job right when this situation occures by refilling with the old IAT glycol.
This will not work.
Damage with OAT is Done.
Though flushing of the system of old glycol is a must before the long life 'hybrid' HOAT antifreeze is used.
Warning for DIY folk, do check the type before use,DO NOT go by colours this another story.
Use the good old local garages they will give advice.
Advances of today within the motor products make it hard for the DIY guy,do get advice first.
Now to my own Question,Stephe what did you use to aid the fitment of the liner seals on assembly or were they "just" fitted.
(Message edited by pat lockyer on 25 March 2007)
Post Number: 1196
|Posted on Sunday, 25 March, 2007 - 07:01 pm: |
This whole saga is slowly unravelling, and your sharing of research is most appreciated.
Interesting is that Crewe to this day only recommends its own ICI 007/400F conventional coolant mix, and specifically eliminates the new wave of organic and hybrid inhibited glycols as options with wet liners. Hybrids, it seems, may slow the rot, but why not just stay safe ? The number of posts on weep holes disasters appearing on the R-R sites of late worldwide sends a shuddering warning on fooling around with coolants. Until the industry has found stable advice, I suggest that Bill Vatter's suggestions are indeed wise whether the colours are universal or not.
Let's not meddle, and simply use the coolant for which our cars were designed at least until some plausible explanation of why there is a better alternative arises. Even if we don't use the ICI stuff bottled by Crewe, at least we may maintain the generic compounds by using inorganically inhibited glycols and changing them regularly as specified. This is clearly an issue where we must refrain from hearing what we want to hear from an uninformed corner garage or spares chain store, let alone believing what is written on the bottle. Being a little careful surely makes sense. Any other advice, for now at least, is nothing short of vandalism.
Post Number: 714
|Posted on Sunday, 25 March, 2007 - 07:29 pm: |
I know you have strong views on this topic however I suggest you be very careful in expressing your opinions to avoid making unsupported statements such as "this just is not true". I suggest a more cautious approach would be prudent to avoid possible embarassment in the future IF further instances of fluid leaks are documented and it is found there is an inherent problem with these coolants that takes some time to reveal itself.
No doubt you are aware that the fear of litigation makes almost all companies reluctant to publically reveal details of problems with their products until they have no alternative to doing so by a product recall or court action by an aggrieved customer. Until this occurs, we all all in the dark and exposing ourselves to potential expenses if whatever we are using proves to be faulty.
If I may quote my personal experience in a reversal of end-use experience: I was State Manager for a company which manufactured and distributed domestic, agricultural and industrial products. Our state facility included a workshop where we trained our customer's repair staff and also undertook warranty work on our products. We employed a very experienced mechanic who was a long-time employee. Our employee had the unfortunate habit of telling customers who brought in a product for attention - "Oh, they ALL do that". In his case, this was true because he only ever saw the products that had experienced problems [approx 2% of our sales] - he never saw the other 98% that were working without any problems whatsoever.
Pat, you may be in the position of seeing applications of the product which are working - after all the product must have passed some successful pre-release testing. From the information available to us, it certainly appears there are problems that require further investigation before any rigid, categoric or unequivocal claims can be made regarding the absolute suitability and safety of use for long-life coolants.
Post Number: 683
|Posted on Sunday, 25 March, 2007 - 08:51 pm: |
The Motor E&M Association.
A little more for the disscussion.
Note, Since antifreeze is clear when it is manufactured, and water is clear, dye is used
to color the antifreeze for identification and marketing purposes. The color of
antifreeze is no longer an accurate indicator as to whether it is an IAT, OAT,HOAT or NOAT formulation. Further, some antifreeze manufacturers market a “universal” antifreeze they say is compatible with all OAT, HOAT and NOAT
formulations. These "universal" formulas are not for use with IAT and they will not
convert an IAT to an LLC/ELC antifreeze. Mixing IAT with OAT, HOAT or NOAT antifreezes will not damage your vehicle’s cooling system; however the mixture will negate the long life/extended life attributes of these formulations.
And distroy the system parts,through type corrosion in a very short time.
In conclusion, there are currently two oranges, two reds, green, dark green,yellow, blue, blue-green, clear and pink dye colors available. With this variety of dye colors and more to come, the service technician’s ability to properly service
and maintain light duty and heavy duty cooling systems properly will be greatly challenged.
It is imperative the technician be fully aware of what the vehicle manufacturers' requirements for antifreeze are and those recommendations be
Flush the system and use HOAT.
Brings me thinking about the manufactures recomended use crossply tyres.
When we recomended radials the car was transformed but not in the eyes of the manufactures.
My goodness they even talked about the excess strain on track rod ends!
But now most run proven radials,not recomended of course.
And one claim in the last 24 hrs that HOAT will "damage the wet liner motor very quickly"
Let the related article be known if it indeed does exist.
We would all like to be informed.
Let the disscusion run as a healthy debate please.
Now Stephe, about those liner seals?
Post Number: 684
|Posted on Sunday, 25 March, 2007 - 09:11 pm: |
Zerex G-05 antifreeze/coolant uses the highest quality virgin ethylene glycol for freeze and boilover protection and a hybrid organic acid corrosion inhibitor package to protect your engines from liner pitting and corrosion.
What is unique about Zerex G-05?
Zerex G-05 is an ethylene glycol based coolant with an HOAT (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology) inhibitor package. It is phosphate free, fully formulated (contains nitrite) and protects against hard water deposits and corrosion. As a testament to the quality, Mercedes has been using this formula for over 20 years.
What is a HOAT coolant and why is it different from conventional and extended life coolants?
An HOAT coolant uses both inorganic and organic inhibitors. HOAT coolants offer the best of all technologies for both immediate and long lasting protection. Inorganic inhibitors provide fast acting aluminum engine protection from boiling and erosion while the organic materials offer non-depleting, long term protection.
And my old 87 all alloy engined Merc is still going strong! 368,000 + miles.
Post Number: 702
|Posted on Friday, 13 April, 2007 - 04:38 am: |
Now would be a good time to do a check on electrosis when corrosion is apparent or before in most service checks.
Take a digital volt meter and connect the -negetive lead to battery ground and place the positive lead in the coolant in the radiator (do not touch any metal), you should not show voltage over 0.01V, if you do then change the coolant and try again. Now run the motor with no accessories on and the engine running at 2000rpm, if you show voltage above 0.03v then you have a system leaking electricity into the coolant.
Run the engine with all accessories on and watch the voltmeter as an assistant turns off the accessories one at a time, when the voltage drops below 0.01v you have found the circuit with a poor ground.
Do the same test while cranking the starter, a poorly grounded starter can destroy the alloy blocks radiator and or heater core in a matter of weeks.
Antifreeze in most cases gets the blame!!!!!!!
Anton De Bloch
Posted From: cache-prs-ab02.proxy.aol.com
|Posted on Saturday, 28 April, 2007 - 11:17 am: |
As a point of interest.
I have followed all the discussions concerning coolants and the Pro's and Con's of colour and type. Bit scary when you think about it. Yesterday I drove to the closest RR agent (400 kms round trip) and purchased the recommended (in the handbook) type of coolant. Much easier than trying to decide if something else "will do". Cost of a 5lt bottle was 40 Euro. Sleep better as well. Greetings to you all
(Message approved by david_gore)
Post Number: 724
|Posted on Friday, 11 May, 2007 - 04:16 am: |
Bad point is that you may have to do the trip twice as often than with Hoat,in time you may find it has been discontinued when you get there!
Post Number: 46
|Posted on Friday, 11 May, 2007 - 05:55 am: |
LOL, True Patrick.
But for the time being - I would go for 10 trips for some anti-freeze instead of one trip for a decoke kit / gasket set and liner seals!
I'll swap in a few years when hoat is tried and tested and proved good in a R-R engine.
In the mean time I'll keep my E-G mix out of the reach of kids and pets!
Peace of mind is a valuable asset!
Post Number: 54
|Posted on Friday, 14 September, 2007 - 07:51 am: |
Well, folks, this has been a long time coming but the situation has eventually been resolved. For those who had the patience to follow this saga from its inception I can now give the definitive answer, which is: -
DO NOT USE OAT INHIBITED COOLANT IN YOUR ENGINE!
I eventually had a meeting with the National Technical Manager of the OAT coolant manufacturer. He was categoric in his statement that this 'technology' is inappropriate for use in any Rolls-Royce or Bentley engine other than the latest Bentley GT and Goodwood Phantom. No ifs and no buts.
Glossary to inhibitor terminology: -
IAT = Inorganic Additive Technology
OAT = Organic Acid Technology
HOAT = Hybrid Organic Acid Technology
The officially recommended coolant for V8 engines is a 50/50 solution of water and ICI 007/400F antifreeze. The latter is still available from any Official Bentley Main Dealer - see www.bentleymotors.com for contact details.
Changeover history: -
The major car manufacturers were looking for improved coolant performance with, amongst other needs, extended product life. Engine designs were changed, including new seals, sealants and gaskets being introduced on a model by model basis. The manufacturers started selectively to introduce OAT coolants from about 1995 and virtually all engines manufactured since 2005 are now compliant with this technology.
The primary impetus for the coolant manufacturers is to satisfy the needs of their main customers who are the car manufacturers. The secondary action is to then provide the after-market retailers with the same products so the market can continue to function. 'Old cars', in the eyes of both are deemed to be vehicles up to about 12 years old, this being the national average vehicle life in both the USA and Europe.
No consideration is given to vehicles of a greater age. The decline in the retail sales of IAT coolants is taken as an indication of falling demand despite the fact that the retailers are encouraged to promote H/OAT coolant. General ignorance of the product differences has not been considered, whether this related to the DIY mechanic or non-franchise auto shop operatives. Unless specific demands are made, by owners of really old cars, IAT coolants will soon be removed from the marketplace.
The old car movement in Europe has, fortunately, organised a strong lobbying group as a defence against EU bureaucratic stupidity. The EU legislation drafting machine is constantly putting forward proposals that would inadvertently remove old cars from the road. Representation has stopped this by providing accurate data on the contribution that this group of people make to the various national economies.
When the coolant manufacturer's representative was presented with a copy of the 2005 report he was astounded, not least by the apparent lost opportunity.
1) The coolant manufacturer has undertaken to change its own and its retailers' labelling to emphasise the unsuitability of OAT in 'old cars'. At the same time it will clarify or reword its definition of 'old car'.
2) My issue was resolved without recourse the the courts, thus depriving the legal profession of a small income.
3) My car has regained its continence.
4) The coolant manufacturer may actually start to market IAT directly at the owners of those cars that need it.
Post Number: 749
|Posted on Friday, 14 September, 2007 - 08:33 am: |
Congratulations on your success and thank you for letting us all know about the outcome.
Reading between the lines, I suspect your settlement included a confidentiality clause. The fact that your car is now continent and you are satisfied is pleasing to hear.
Yet to post message
Post Number: 1
|Posted on Friday, 14 September, 2007 - 11:09 am: |
Good to hear of your closure. I haved followed this saga from the start. I just changed the coolant in my 57 Cloud (SFE423). I used predaluted "Peak" brand anitfreeze... same as I have for the past several years with no problems...however I looked over the container for any ref. to "OAT" or "HOAT" or anything like that and found nothing. The contains discription says it has: water, ethylene glycol, and diethylene glycol... nothing else. How is a person supposed to know if the coolant is the good or bad coolant from the packaging?
Mike in San Diego
Post Number: 1290
|Posted on Friday, 14 September, 2007 - 04:02 pm: |
I must boast that I had the enormous privilege of driving Stephe's Phantom III a few months ago. It is the most fabulous car ever, and it is patently clear why it won the RREC Concours d’Elegance. Anyone who has bought his book, The Forgotten Engine, on its restoration will see just how meticulous the restoration is. This book is now a standard reference for all Phantom III experts and restorers. That, through no fault of his own, he had such a scare by using the wrong coolant must be a lesson to us all.
Post Number: 65
|Posted on Saturday, 15 September, 2007 - 05:13 am: |
Where do we get this book?
Post Number: 1292
|Posted on Saturday, 15 September, 2007 - 05:21 am: |
Post Number: 1293
|Posted on Saturday, 15 September, 2007 - 06:18 am: |
Post Number: 66
|Posted on Tuesday, 18 September, 2007 - 02:20 pm: |
Thank you Richard, my copy is on it's way
Post Number: 798
|Posted on Wednesday, 05 November, 2008 - 05:32 am: |
Time marches on,no probs so far with HOAT and liner seals.
Now a new product, Bluecol top up "u" long life [five years] is now on sale.
This is claimed to mix with all types of antifreeze.
I like this: When Bluecol ‘U’ is added to antifreeze already in the cooling system, the synthetic process and additive package in Bluecol ‘U’ enhances and revitalizes the qualities of the original antifreeze, providing exceptional all year round protection and performance in all driving conditions.
However,I will stay with hoat for the long duration of testing.
Post Number: 11
|Posted on Wednesday, 05 November, 2008 - 07:16 am: |
I'm changing the fluid in my daily driver 1980's era Porsche 928 and my new to me 944. These cars have the same problems with wrong coolant. Using the Porsche recommended brand. I ordered extra because doing two cars. Thinking of using the extra on my Spur and change her fluids as well.
They have a pdf chart list of automakers who need this formula. But my computer cant open that! But using the green stuff rule and other claims by this manufacturer I'll risk it on my own car.
Post Number: 851
|Posted on Wednesday, 05 November, 2008 - 10:29 am: |
You should be able the open the version below:
Note there are only specific references to mass-production makers. Specialty manufacturers such as R-R/B are not detailed presumably because of the potential problems that might arise!!!
Post Number: 14
|Posted on Wednesday, 05 November, 2008 - 12:52 pm: |
Its correct for both my Porsche and on Mercedes. On the SL's Porsche built the engine blocks and also the engine on the 300E (I think) Almost the same V8's as my 928. Its aluminum engine safe, but might see what is recommended for the Spur.
Good point in this thread is the correct coolant is as important for Spurs/Spirits/Shadows and to my favorite PIII's.
Post Number: 4
|Posted on Monday, 17 November, 2008 - 06:45 pm: |
I have a 1955 Silver Cloud I, six cylinder.
I've read this thread a few times, but am still confused as to what coolant brand is best for my engine.
I'd love someone to say brand this, product that, but that may be against the forums rules (advertising).
Being a new owner (Although knowing & doing family weddings with her for 18 years), I never shared my Father's passion for tinkering with her. Dad has hung up his spanners and said 'there you go son, have a Rolls' .
The Rolls Service manual says 'An inhibited solution of Ethylene Glycol (BSS 3150)', for my Cloud I.
Wikipedia say the Ethylene Glycol is an anti freeze (which I don't need in Melbourne), yet Australia's National Pollutant Inventory http://www.npi.gov.au/database/substance-info/profiles/41.html says it is a coolant as well.
Is this an Radiator Corrosion Inhibitors (RCI)? RCIs are said in this PDF http://www.valvoline.com.au/files/productpdfs/52.pdf to be:
'These coolants are low priced but offer no high temperature or anti freeze protection. They are commonly used in older cast iron cooling systems and are not recommended for modern engines.
Consumers can mistakenly use corrosion inhibitors instead of the correct coolant if they buy purely on price. Leaving workshops to deal with the results of poor temperature protection.'
I have a cast iron block and an aluminium alloy head, so just using Ethylene Glycol seems against valvoline's advice.
The above PDF then mentions
IAT (Inorganic Acid Technology), OAT (Organic Acid Technology) and then HOAT (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology)
My take on the advice in the PDF is to go for HOAT, in their 33% pre mix (to avoid tap water contaminants)
The last thing I want while my Father is still with me, is to find the coolant I use, or my Father has used to be damaging. Sadly, Dad cannot give me a specific brand he used over the last 18 years. He was perplexed when I mentioned the problem of a wrong 'coolant/anti corrosive' damaging seals and the like. Maybe he was lucky in his choice of Ethylene Glycol and any additives were harmless.
If all I need is Ethylene Glycol, where can I get a pure supply of it, without the additives that IAT, OAT and HOAT have?
Post Number: 249
|Posted on Monday, 17 November, 2008 - 08:05 pm: |
Colin - There is a continuing debate on anti-freeze.
My professional and personal experience is ( and your Father's engine is proof of the pudding ) use the old style Blue (or green in Australia? I've read on here.) Ethylene Glycol at 40% - 50% . BLUECOL is the most famous one over here in the UK.
Change it every few years. Use filtered or boiled water if your water is hard etc.
Long Life anti-freeze can harm some older engines. It may last twice as long - but it costs twice as much ( or more ) .
Coolant = Anti-freeze - Kind of same thing really.
The only other suggestion would be - when changing anti-freeze. There are three round plates on the right hand side of the engine. Remove the rear one and check for silt. Flush it out if necessary. If it's completely full of silt, remove the other plates if you can.
Hope you have tons of fun with the old girl
Post Number: 5
|Posted on Monday, 17 November, 2008 - 08:33 pm: |
Thanks for the advice Paul. If BlueCol is a greyish blue, it's the same colour that's in the radiator now.
I've found BlueCol's U.K. website and pictures of the containers. Possibly Dad was using BlueCol. He'll recognise the name and container. If so, he'll know where to get it in Melbourne.
I wish I had absorbed his many talks on his mechanical repairs & maintenance techniques.
I did enjoy his stories though, of finding spare parts from garden variety cars. Best was the rotor button from a Holden LJ Torana. He gave me 20 of them along with lashings of genuine hoses & lights etc.
Yep, each time I take her out to roll the wheels and keep things turning, the more I'm starting to enjoy her. Just hate those 3 point turns without power steering.
Post Number: 14
|Posted on Tuesday, 18 November, 2008 - 05:32 am: |
Paul is dead-on with his Monday, 17th post. As a further addition, ethylene glycol lowers the freezing point and raises the boiling point of the solution and thus acts as an antifreeze and coolant. Stand alone, it also has anti-corrosive properties.
Post Number: 162
|Posted on Tuesday, 03 April, 2012 - 11:44 pm: |
Is this threat still actual in terms of information?
I contacted a parts supplier to get 20 liters of Bluecol and he checked (Car Model and year) whether he could provide an alternative (IAT.
Kroon Oil supplies something called Coolant -38NF which is OAT based and which the importer swears to be compatible with RR engines of the wet cylinder type. He said to be aware of the problem of earlier coolants but that this was now solved.
Needless to say I am not trying anything, but are there any news (official) on compatibility of new OAT with our V8 engines.
Post Number: 62
|Posted on Wednesday, 04 April, 2012 - 06:46 am: |
This is the controversy that just won't die. There were definite issues with early extended life formulations, particularly DexCool formulations, most of which appear to have been linked to the use of 2-EHA, a plasticizer that had some very negative reactivity with seal material in older cars. There was a huge lawsuit in the U.S. related to that formulation, which the plaintiffs won.
Reaction to this early disaster was swift, and formulations were changed. However, there are still some who absolutely insist that you must not use OAT antifreeze in RR/Bentley motorcars "of a certain age."
I know a number of people who have been using extended life and "lifetime" (see Peak Global Lifetime, for example) in their cars for several years now. Peak Global makes a point of stating that it has a 2-EH free formulation. I went over to extended life antifreeze in my Shadow II last fall, and there has been no evidence of any issue so far. Since virtually all of the disaster narratives out there begin along the lines of, "I put this new type of antifreeze in my car and within days it began weeping from multiple orifices," I have to conclude that the current formulations do not match whatever was out there in the mid-1990s.
There are those who say, "Well, but most cars don't have wet liner engines like ours do!," but I don't see how that's particularly relevant. Either the stuff is compatible with our seal material or it isn't, and the seal material RR used in its engines is hardly unique to them.
The more research I've done and the more I've talked with people who've gone to modern antifreeze formulations in their Rolls-Royce and/or Bentley automobiles "of a certain age" the more confident I've felt about my decision to do so.
This is an area where I encourage each and every owner to do their homework based upon the factual information that's available, not "friend of a friend" type parables, and then make an informed decision that they can live with.
There will never be "retroactive field testing" of these formulations with our cars (nor, for that matter, most cars that they're currently used in, which includes millions that were made long before these formulations existed). It is going to be a decision based on extrapolation from available data, not from controlled studies using antique cars. The manufacturers of these products just don't do that, but they do have enough expertise to do lab testing with materials they are almost certain their products will come in contact with before they make claims such as, "Compatible with all cars," which could (and would) bring a liability nightmare down upon them were they not quite certain. One need only read the DexCool Settlement Website to see where lack of due diligence can land a manufacturer who produces a product sure to be used in millions of cars without having thoroughly tested it first.
Post Number: 848
|Posted on Thursday, 05 April, 2012 - 04:32 am: |
Update with the Hoat "Mobil antifreeze extra"
Cool running no probs with corrosion or liner seals,still running original water pump with no leaks.
Time to change the coolant and thermostat after 5+ years how time flys.
May go to 8 yr before change!
I really wonder if S Boddice used the Hoat he may not have had problems,however if you have corrosion in a engine nothing will cure that!
Car running on LPG on startup no petrol needed.
Never see many being used in the UK in the west, [sad] as they are a really good driver.
Job I have to do is the replacement of the rear drive shaft boots, both are split, maybe the towing has a bit to do with that.
Happy days to all in OZ.
Post Number: 30
|Posted on Friday, 13 December, 2013 - 06:50 pm: |
Found this when looking into this issue, just to add to the information pool, I don't give any endorsement to the content.
Post Number: 1143
|Posted on Saturday, 14 December, 2013 - 08:31 am: |
Graham - think that might be a case of to much information and not enough conclusion.
Found this interesting . .
Tap water in North America also contains calcium, but isn't as hard as European tap water so phosphates are considered okay to use here. . . . The whole continent of North America has softer water than Europe?
I suspect that can not be correct!
I'm not sure where the problem with coolants changing is. Use the same tied and tested coolant which is cheap and available, Change it every 2 or 3 tears.
Dispose of the old coolant responsibly. The amount that our cars use is not going to make a drop of difference to the earth.
I am still of the opinion that 5 year spark plugs, 5 year coolant, life long transmission fluid - looks great when you advertise a new vehicles service cost data to somebody buying a new car. However - it's the next owner left picking up the pieces
Post Number: 695
|Posted on Saturday, 14 December, 2013 - 09:32 am: |
Are you, by any chance, a member of the RROC-US? There has been a recent thread there on coolants, specifically with regard to "hardness/softness" of water and the fact that the manufacturers say that it's better to use tap water virtually anywhere than distilled. It was an interesting read.
I think that the hair-splitting that goes on with regard to coolants, zinc content in oil, and several other issues are distractions. Having read the detailed specs related to these is what has brought me to that conclusion.
As far as coolants go, it seems that 2-EHA is to be avoided if you have silicone seals, and since many cars do there are a lot of manufacturers who have deleted it from both their OAT and HOAT formulations. One must check that, though. I've been using a 2-EHA-free long life coolant in my Silver Wraith II without issue and know several people who've been using Peak Global Lifetime coolant (also 2-EHA-free) for years now without issue.
I absolutely agree that disposal of old coolant, particularly ethylene glycol based ones, must be done responsibly. Here in the states many auto parts stores recycle both coolant and motor oil. Where I live our regional dump recycles motor oil and antifreeze as well.
We'll have to agree to differ, at least to some extent, about long life items, fluids in particular. People are notoriously bad about keeping up on fluid changes other than oil, and some even that. Anything that extends change intervals while offering the necessary protection is a big plus in my book. I've got a 15-year-old Jaguar with 153K miles that's still on its original lifetime transmission fluid and going strong. There is a 2001 GMC truck in our household with just under 270K miles that was on its original Dexron-III fluid until it developed an oil leak that required them to remove the transmission pan to get access to where the oil leak was coming from. That was a few months and only a few thousand miles ago.
I drive all of my daily drivers until they can't be driven anymore and can't recall the last time I've disposed of a car that was less than a minimum of 10 years old. None were purchased new. All have had long-life fluids of various sorts in them from delivery, and they've functioned precisely as advertised.
Post Number: 184
|Posted on Sunday, 15 December, 2013 - 12:05 am: |
Personally, I like short-life items. They make me change the coolant, brake fluid, brake hoses, etc. on some sort of regular basis, and a lot of other maintenance tasks get done at the same time.
The more long-life items I have, the more I put all maintenance tasks on the long finger.
On the other topic, I use distilled water. My (European) well water is very hard before the filters/softeners, and very salty afterwards. I can't believe either one is going to do much for my cooling system.
Post Number: 696
|Posted on Sunday, 15 December, 2013 - 12:40 am: |
While I doubt that salt-softened water would help, read the attached out of Finland regarding "parameters" for ideal water to use with engine coolant.
Apparently, at least some hardness is actually beneficial. But, as in so many things, moderation is essential as well.
Post Number: 185
|Posted on Monday, 16 December, 2013 - 02:27 am: |
Interesting read, Brian.
My water isn't actually all that hard in terms of calcium carbonate, it just has a ton of manganese (Mn, not Mg) in solution which precipitates out and tends to gunk up small passages. Sadly I don't have a tap between the green sand filter (which strips most of the Mn out) and the ion-exchange unit (which replaces the CaCO3 with NaCl), as it sounds like that would be ideal.
Post Number: 1146
|Posted on Monday, 16 December, 2013 - 08:21 am: |
I've found that if you tell an owner something needs changing every Z years they will usually think about changing it at Z x 2 or more years!
IMHO @ 10 years - a car should still be in it's infancy.
But then I'm lucky enough to work almost exclusively on Crewe R-R & B cars and have a different time scale I guess.