| Author | Message | ||
     Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 433 Registered: 4-2003 |
Phil Sproston alerted me to this problem some little time ago. We tend to overlook the fact that the pumps are fed from the reservoir by gravity. With cars using RR363 and generating the invariable junk and grot in their systems it is a boon to be able to pressure up, open a bleed screw and blow Hell out of the lines fittings calipers etc. But not so the pumps that just sit there immersed in hot fluid. Twice now on cars I have gone to replace outer casing 'O' rings only to find grot and sludge as seen in the photo. Both cars incidentally had had more brake fluid through them in recent months than I care to admit so the message is open them up, preferably pull them out strip and clean them and rule that area out if you have any problems.  | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 147 Registered: 10-2003 |
My article on the topic is in one of last years RROC Modern Car Society "The Modern Lady".  The slime issue is very common. Contamination is death to the pump, that is one reason why fluid service is a must do. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 434 Registered: 4-2003 |
I agree Bill but my point was that you pump a million gallons of fluid through the system and still not move this slime. Sorry I missed your article of course with the exclusive nature of the Club magazines the information is fairly well kept confidential. I will be putting it in 'Topics'. | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 148 Registered: 10-2003 |
I agree with you. Will forward the article files to you, for T-one topics. This is critical information to keep our cars on the road. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 435 Registered: 4-2003 |
That would be great - many thanks. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 437 Registered: 4-2003 |
Further to my pics - was talking to a highly experienced old hand yesterday and mentioned the 'slime'. He immediately said 'using non 363 at some time!' No prompting from ME! For what it is worth! | ||
| Nigel A Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58.84.124.38 |
Hi Bill, Is it possible to flush the pumps with metho (or something else) by disconnecting the flexible line from the reservoir and connecting it to a 'venturi' type compressed air pump, opening the bleed screw down near the accumulators, and forcing the metho through the pumps. I have had an ongoing problem with system 2 which will regularly light up while driving. There is a notable drop in braking but system 1 continues to work OK. After leaving the car for a while ie shopping for a couple of hours, system 2 comes back to normal. I have even had it come back into operation while I've been driving along. I know the best method would be to do as you have done and pull them out and clean them but unfortunately I don't have your knowledge and skill. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 150 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hello Nigel A Ralph To answer your question: Posted on Sunday, 10 July, 2005 - 10:02 pm: NO, it is not possible to flush this heavy sludge out of the pumps. All chemicals I have found strong enough to remove the sludge will dissolve rubber O-rings. This is critical safety maintenance. The last three Silver Shadow II hydraulic systems worked upon by me, it was my sad duty to inform the owners that their pumps where beyond repair. All three owners where warned several times that their pumps need service, by other mechanics, between three months and five years before it came to me. Corrosion and pitting destroyed them. Each pump is built with tight machined tolerances and very near surgical cleanliness is needed during assembly. Please consider, these pumps are capable of 3000 psi = KPa(kilopascal) 20684.271 or MPa(megpascal) 20.684271 | ||
| Nigel a Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58.84.112.108 |
Thanks Whunter. I was just hoping. It seemed to be a lot easier to connect a 4 gallon drum of metho up to the venturi and blast it through the pumps than to pull everything apart. Its something that a non-mechanic with a compressor can do. Any comment about my other problems with the pump? I find it strange that the warning lights come on and off along with a change in braking. I had thought that if the pumps were clogged they would be clogged and the lights would be on constantly. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 151 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hello Nigel A Ralph To answer your question: The hydraulic pump generally limps along at varying pressure = smothered, choked and corroded by the fatal green slime. You can install a transducer in the line and watch the pressure variation. The input side of pump is gravity feed + suction from the pump = the first effect of corrosion is surface pitting of all precision metal surfaces = suction and pressure are effected + the corrosion has more surface area to attack = a green slime restriction = it can draw vacuum and run dry = more wear on pump. It is not possible to blow through a hydraulic piston pump. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 467 Registered: 4-2003 |
Nigel, Noting Bill's advice and your reluctance one stop gap measure may be to simply clean the inner part of the pump of slime etc. This does not take the skills of a rocket scientist. The rear pump is the most awkward and hopefully you won't have an exhaust gas reticulation valve poised over the air intake horns. Even if you have, this can easily be removed. Clamp off the low pressure feed line from the reservoir to the pump and undo the feed pipe from the side of the pump. Undo the top nipple on the outlet adapter and tie the pipe to one side. Get yourself some circlip pliers and remove the large circlip from the top of the pump. You should then be able to lever the outer casing upwards and off the pump. Meanwhile you will have ordered two outer pump 'O' rings and a small one for the intake nipple. Then I would use metho to clean the sludge off. One trick if you don't have a pressure gun to hose the thing down is to clean a household detergent 'wash and wipe' type bottle, fill that with metho and squirt away. The object is to get the holes in the side of the pump clear. Ideally air dry the thing before assembly, do not use cloth, bits can foul up the system. Clean the outer casing, replace the little 'O'ring in the inlet hole replace the large 'O' rings on the body get the top one on first and slide the bottom one over the top and down to the bottom groove. Smear the inside of the casing with RR363 then slide the casing over the pump. When you come to put the inlet pipe on get the thread just started then release the clamp on the feed line. Wait till you have a steady flow from the pipe before tightening the nipple. This usually stops an air lock in the pipe. You may like to get a long length of plastic hose to tightly fit over the outlet. The other end goes in a bottle. If you start the engine you should be able to see regular spurts going through the hose and at the same time flush any muck you may have dislodged in your cleaning operations. Run the reservoir to empty and switch off. Reconnect the top pipe fill the reservoir and bleed the system. | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 152 Registered: 10-2003 |
I agree, if the reservoir is clean. However; running a dirty reservoir through a clean pump is not a good idea. Are both sight glass on hydraulic reservoir clean/clear? If the answer is no, sludge has contaminated your supply. Sorry; there is no way to avoid removing the top of hydraulic reservoir, and I suggest removal of hydraulic reservoir assembly for proper cleaning. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 468 Registered: 4-2003 |
My dear Bill, With these cars unless they do a big mileage I drain and clean the reservoir whenever I change the sump oil. And I do the same thing with Clouds as they have those lovely jam jars that are a dead give away of deteriorating brake fluid. I also assumed that Ralph knew(perhaps I was wrong) that step one was to clean out the tank. | ||
| Nigel A. Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58.84.117.180 |
Many thanks Bill (and Bill). Is it necessary to remove the carby gear? Is there anything I should watch out for when removing the distributor? My warning light hasn't come on for days and I drive the car to and from work but I seriously suspect the pump to be fairly gunked up. Reservoir is clean and sight glasses are fine. I had no hesitation in doing that as it is completely understandable and doesn't need triple jointed fingers or wrist. I admit to a lack of knowledge over the working of the system and at times I think it would be great to be down in Canberra and go along to your workshops. I only have to look at the temperatures of Canberra and Whitsundays to see why I'm up here though. Your support and shared knowledge is greatly appreciated. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Jonas TRACHSEL New User Username: jonas_trachsel Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2005 |
Dear Nigel To help you understand the working of the hydraulic system I recommend you to visit the following site: www.rrsilvershadow.com/techn/. There you will find a most detailed and easy-to-understand description (in Dutch and English) of all the components of the complicated hydraulic system with diagrams and exploded views. Absolutely worth visiting! Best Jonas | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 469 Registered: 4-2003 |
My dear Jonas The brilliant explanations on the web site you quote are educational but what we have tried to do is give hands on advice. My dear Nigel You should be able to get the cover off the rear pump with disturbing the induction assembly. It equates roughly to setting the exhaust tappets on a Silver Wraith with high mudgaurds. Get yourself registered and save the energies of David Gore!! | ||
| Nigel A. Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58.84.115.133 |
Many thanks Jonas, Unfortunately the web page listed didn't come up when I clicked on it. There were certainly a number of cruise ships listed but I shall keep exploring. Perhaps the greatest problem I have is determining the order of action when doing anything with the Rolls. This site has been most helpful and as a result I have been able to do such things as change the springs and redo the woodwork etc. Without the advice from this forum these wouldn't have been done as I am not in the league (financially) to pay the so called experts to do it for me. (I also take pride in my small achievements as I have never been mechanically minded and regard work on my car as a type of therapy. Its just a pity that I have a little box of extra bits and pieces that have somehow been left over when I've pulled things apart then put them back again.) (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 153 Registered: 10-2003 |
Jonas TRACHSEL was referring to this website http://www.rrsilvershadow.com/ click on the links under TECHNIEK. | ||
| Nigel A. Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58.84.126.192 |
HI Bill I really thank you for your practical expertise. I have tried to register but ran into some slight problems which I sent through to David but so far have not got the follow up. I certainly don't wish to be a burden to anyone! (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Nigel A Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58.84.118.71 |
To Bill Coburn, Hi Bill, Would it be rude of me to ask how big your hands are and whether your fingers and wrists are triple jointed or just double jointed? Did you make some sort of platform above the engine upon which you could lie in order to attack the pumps? I have stuffed around for a while trying to pluck up the courage to remove the circlip on the front pump with the confidence that I could get everything back again ... but my courage has failed. I am going in to my friend's garage on Thursday week to give it a go. At least there I know I will not be stranded as he is triple jointed and very dextrous. You mechanics are really a breed of your own! I do believe your comment that "the rear pump is the most awkward," is an understatement. To my way of viewing it is near impossible, but here's hoping my mate will see things your way. Are there any simple pieces that can be removed to make the rear pump easier to attack? (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 867 Registered: 4-2003 |
Nigel, I am sure that Bill will respond more fully. However, as a comment: it is not at all difficult to remove the inlet manifold if you are really stuck. You can then clean out the valley properly, and check the valley cover for leaks. You may find a few nuts, bolts and spanners down there as a bonus. If you have leaky pumps only, you can more easily replace the o-rings in-situ on both pumps with the manifold removed, and with such good access you can be surer that it all goes together properly. RT. | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 154 Registered: 10-2003 |
I remove the carb assembly to ease access for the rear pump. Cover the hole with wood, to keep stray parts and tools out of engine intake manifold. I cover the fenders and engine, lay directly upon engine with great care. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 505 Registered: 4-2003 |
Ah accessability. Both Richard and Bill would be past masters at getting at things on these cars. I am intrigued at Bills's description of him lying on top of the engine. Bill, would that be naked and do you have a bod that half the world would kill for? You see I am thinking that we should get on with the next year's calendar. I used to have an acquaintance who was my age and fatter and even uglier. He was banned from entering Sydney's Taronga Park Zoo as he tended to frighten the animals! He used, in the hot days of Summer, work in nothing but a 'G' string. This sight made dirty pumps an absolute delight to look at! Seriously I must do a thing in Tee One Topics on getting at these cars. Issue 45 showed my method at getting at Shadow accumulators without dislocating all your cervical vertebrae. During my PVI apprenticeship I had made up a stout bar that could lift the car by the front jacking brackets but more importantly having removed the wheels the whole car could be lowered to the brake drums. Actually two small wooden blocks so that the drums were free. This lowered the mudgaurds to a level where you had some chance of leaning over them without danger of inverting yourself by overbalancing. But back to the pumps. If you have an exhaust gas reticulation system, you will have to move the induction system forward or take the EGR stuff off (and preferably hurl it somewhere). Remove the top outlet pipe of the pump and tie it to one side and likewise with the inlet pipe, remove the top circlip and carefully prise the outer casing of the pump off. There are two 'O' rings so you will be doing two 'prises'! If you are a glutton for punishment as Richard is and pull everything out of the valley, (call the local archiology people before hand since the odd Dinosaur tooth is often found lodged in the valley) with the use of a 'C' spanner you can remove both pumps. If you are worried about keeping track of which goes where, get a digital camera and take copious pics as you go which you can refer back to!! Well done at having a go. I have just written a fairly stinging rebuke to a gentleman who said it was 'sheer folly' to attempt to overhaul a four speed Hydramatic box. When you have a defunct box, no one to help you, no funds and plenty of commonsense you have little option. Every job starts with opening the bonnet!! | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 156 Registered: 10-2003 |
My wife thinks I look better naked, but she may be biased. :GRIN: I weigh 102.0583 kilograms. The secret to laying upon the engine = knowing the position that hurts me; but not the car. My wife does not like it when I do this, as it embosses, bruises and at times cuts me. The only good point is how fast you can repair the pumps; but I am a mechanic = time = money = a little personal hurt is worth doubling my speed, so long as the car is not hurt doing it. | ||
| Nigel A Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58.84.122.239 |
Many thanks to you all for your advice. I shall certainly let you know how things went. A digital camera is standard now for everything I do as I still can't figure out where my container of bits and pieces, (left over after removing the door trim to redo the woodwork) should have gone. The car is not being used at present as last Thursday I lost a degree of braking power with no warning lights coming on. (Previously when I lost system 2 the lights lit up.) I'm hoping that the system is all gunked up and simply needs to be cleaned! I really do appreciate your advice as the only alternatives would be to either ship the car to Brisbane for mechanical work (which I can't afford) or to sell it, and I really do love driving it. Even apart from my pleasure in driving the car, to have kids (I'm a primary teacher 1200kms north of Brisbane) who have never heard of RR admire it above the latest flash cars (mid you they are mainly 4wds), really gives a buzz. It really says something about this 'dream car'. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Nigel A Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58.84.112.161 |
Hi Bill, This is just an update to let you know the latest. The car went in today for its little operation but before we got going on the pumps my mechanic friend wanted to check the brake master cylinder as he thought my comments about losing braking power without the warning lights coming on was a bit fishy. We found that the cylinder was a bit dodgy as the brake pedal got towards the floor because it was corroded over the last centimetre of its thrust area. Duly cleaned out and freed up. Levels of 363 at the maximum and we took it for a drive. Warning light came on and when we got back to the garage we found that System 2 reservoir was overfull! He concluded that the valve in the pump must be failing intermittently, so we have decided on a proper removal and inspection of the pumps. A few phone calls later revealed that a new pump would cost $2 000 and a kit about $200. Not sure about a valve at this stage. When we were bleeding the system there was a degree of aeration that did not go away no matter how much 363 we put through. Any ideas on this? We will redo the flexible lines also as the bled fluid (after aeration had stopped)was not as clear as that out of the bottle. I have replaced the lines from the reservoir with braided teflon. Would this be fine for the others as well? (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 157 Registered: 10-2003 |
Pumps are $500 USD each over here. Try contacting them direct, even with shipping it should be cheaper. ALBERS Family Owned & Operated Since 1963 BENTLEY ZIONSVILLE 360 S. First St, Zionsville, IN 46077 Phone: (317) 873-2360/2460 - Fax: (317) 873-6860 www.albersrollsbentley.com | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 881 Registered: 4-2003 |
Try more like less than US$200 at the UK regular independents. It's a good idea to replace the pushrod at the same time as they cost less than US$80. I have never understood why people like Albers' prices. RT. | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 158 Registered: 10-2003 |
Richard Treacy; PLEASE list a few contacts for this cost. Albers is near to me, and customers do not like waiting. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 882 Registered: 4-2003 |
To answer your question, these are the latest prices presented in July 2005 in the UK at the RREC National. They are an indicative sample of the available sources. Brake Pumps: Try the cheapest at Beare Essentials: £50 (US$90). They also sell height control valves at £60 (US$100). Introcar £119 or US$200, but they discount. Flying Spares brake pumps somewhat higher price at £180 (US$350). Montagues £134, or £80 secondhand with guarantee (US$250 / US$150). Yes, the prices are all over the place. Montagues even offer brake pump push rods for £40 (US$75) new. RT. | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 159 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thank you. | ||
| Nigel A Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58.84.122.18 |
Hi Richard Have chased up the beare-essentials website and the prices are amazing! Have added it to my 'favourites' and shall see how things go. I noticed a set of brake hoses X10 for 80 pounds (couldn't find the pound sign) as well. Couldn't find Montagues but got side tracked into the Montagues and Capulets saga so cut my losses. Thanks for your link. Its greatly appreciated. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 883 Registered: 4-2003 |
For Montague, look at: http://www.rolls-parts.com/ They are very reliable. RT. | ||
| Nigel A Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58.84.125.112 |
Hi All, There is something illogical about this car! I had problems with System 2. When depressurising, System 2 would take 20 odd pumps and System 1 over a hundred. We pulled out pump 2 and found the main spring rusted and broken. We replaced the rear brake pump with a reconditioned one, it took 100 plus pumps to depressurise it but only 26 pumps to depressurise system 1!! Why would system 1 have changed? We didn't even touch it! (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Patrick Mcglashan Unregistered guest Posted From: 69.107.19.114 |
Gentlemen. On my 1977 SW ll, 32027. I recently rebuilt the number 2 (rear)hydraulic pump. The engine is equipped with an EGR valve. I was able to remove the pump by just removing the distributor. After depressurizing the system, I removed the distributor and tied off the cap and wires to get them out of the way. Removing the pump was straightforward if you follow the instructions in the manual, with a few exceptions. The outer case was the hardest to remove. After removing the circlip, I squirted around the top of the outer case with a few drops of WD-40 to loosen it up. I also had to reconnect the feed line to the outer case and used it as leverage to pull up on the case. (use hand power, not a pry bar)I then inserted a flat blade screwdriver between the bottom of the outer case and the base of the pump and gently pry up. This immediately loosened the outer case. The pump had a lot of black sludge on the inside. I did notice some surface corrosion on the inside wall of the outer case. In spite of this, the pump never leaked externally. I disassembled the pump, cleaned and inspected it. I also bought an 'O' ring kit for it. Speaking of 'O' rings, most comments on this forum addressed only the two large 'O' rings and the small 'O' ring for the inlet pipe. There is a fourth 'O' ring that must be replaced. This 'O' ring is located in a recess inside the pump housing. You remove it, after the pump is totally disassembled, by inverting the pump and using a pick or some other tool to dislodge it from the recess it's located in inside the main pump housing. The barrel (that the plunger slides into) passes through this 'O' ring to form an internal seal. Something very strange happened while reassembling the pump. While using a snap ring pliers to compress the snap ring, the ring flew off the pliers like a flying saucer, ricochetting about a hundred times off everything in my garage. The ring then mysteriously landed right at my feet! there's more, While compressing the other snap ring, it too went flying the same way and then landed right at my feet too! How's that for coincidence?? Rolls Royce snap rings are made of boomerang materials! Hope my input shed some light on what to expect when removing the rear brake pump. Patrick (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| bob Unregistered guest Posted From: 81.168.83.66 |
I find it easier when working on the pumps to remove the carbs then the inlet manifold then the valley cover, complete with pumps. This way the cam and pump drive bits and pieces can be checked. It appears to be a lot of work. It may be a lot of bolts but they are all easy and you do not need the specail tool to undo the pumps. The pumps can be removed and overhauled with the flange still on it. Be carefull with the 2 bolts that hold the bypass pipe to the water pump-- these can strip. I can get the carbs off my car in 5 mins. RR snap rings are designed to return to the owner should they fly off the pliers. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Nigel A Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58.84.124.24 |
Hi all, Just an update to let you know how I went. After initially removing carby gear as well as distributer we found it is really quite simple to just remove the distributer as Patrick Mcg advised. (Had a leak after everything was back together and had to do it again. Its not really a problem and even a mug like me can do it!!) Also changed all 'original' 30 year old flexible hoses and lo and behold the RR363 stayed clear when bleeding! Got the hoses from Robert Chapman whom I can certainly recommend. Brake master cylinder reconditioned by Brake-Mart Mackay and came back as new! The old girl is driving beautifully but the strange whale talk sounds from the rear still continue. Thank you all for your advice with the rear pump. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Nigel A Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58.84.125.209 |
Hi all, I spoke too soon! After replacing the rear pump with a reconditioned one everything went well for a whole week then something gave way within the the pump and RR363 covered the garage floor. A close look shows that the leak is coming from the top of the pump. The 'o' rings are genuine as were the previous ones which came with the reconditioned pump. Any suggestions as to why the pump is leaking would be greatly appreciated. The internals of the pump were replaced with reconditioned ones but the outer casing is the original. It appeared to be in quite good shape. The 'o' rings were lubricated before being placed in position and they appeared to seat quite comfortably. The system worked well for a week with the car being driven daily. I am at a total loss. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 466 Registered: 9-2004 |
Possible LHM seals fitted by mistake. Pitting of outer pump inner housing. Pump over presurising due to faulty acumulator. | ||
| Nigel A Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58.84.120.209 |
Thanks Patrick, I don't know what an LHM seal is but when you order the seals from the RR chap you bought the reconditioned pump through you simply expect them to be the correct ones Reconditioned accumulators 12 months ago. Outer casing appeared to be quite sound and not pitted at all. Have ordered another set from Bently in Sydney in the hope that the problem has something to do with old 'o' rings or incorrect ones, but shall wait and see. I also hope that it has nothing to do with Patrick Mcgl's 4th 'o' ring which I certainly didn't notice. Shall have a better look when the new rings arrive. (Message approved by david_gore) |
