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Darryl Watson
Experienced User
Username: inox

Post Number: 87
Registered: 04-2015
Posted on Friday, 19 July, 2019 - 18:29:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

In the UK there are again rumblings by those in government re the introduction of E10 bio fuel. (non-technical terminology).
I found the following Australian web page which is interesting in that Bentleys & RRs from 1990 are purportedly OK to use the fuel.
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/can-my-car-use-e10-ethanol-fuel-23625
Conundrum for me - our car was ordered November 1989 and delivered 1990 but I will still avoid E10 if at all possible.
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Roderick Waite
Frequent User
Username: rodwaite

Post Number: 229
Registered: 01-2012
Posted on Friday, 19 July, 2019 - 19:51:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

IHello Darryl, I live in France, and E10 has been the only petrol available for a year or more. My 1984 Spirit doesn't seem to mind, certainly I've noticed no difference in starting, running, idling, hot, cold or indifferent. If anything she does a tad more to the litre, so don't worry about it ...
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Darryl Watson
Experienced User
Username: inox

Post Number: 90
Registered: 04-2015
Posted on Saturday, 20 July, 2019 - 05:09:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for the info Roderick

Regards
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Trevor P Hodgkinson
New User
Username: wm20

Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Wednesday, 21 August, 2019 - 00:08:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It is not running on E10 that will cause you grief.
It is not running with float bowl full of E 10 where the fun begins.
Water is soluable in Ethanol but if left to sit for long while will separate out and sit on the bottom.
Even worse bacteria will grow in the water /ethanol mix and form a whiteish belmonge sort of sticky goo that enhances corrosion.
So if you use you car daily ( and why wouldn't you ) there will be no problems.
Once or twice a week will also be fine.
However once a month or less and you are entering the trouble zone.
I now fix small engines as deregulation killed my wedding car business and see this all the time.
With mowers, motorcycles , line trimers & the like you simply turn off the fuel or tip what is in the tank out then run the engine dry to avoid these hassels
On you roller you can slip a solenoid valve into the fuel line to turn off the fuel so the engine runs dry when you are not going to use the car for a month or longer.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2930
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 21 August, 2019 - 03:54:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Roderick,

I live in the USA, where E10 has been the de facto fuel for literally decades now. I have been running it in every car I own (including my 2 SYs) and know people who use it in even older cars.

Unless you happen to have a vintage car with really vintage fuel system "rubber" parts, E10 should not have any deleterious effects.

The horror stories regarding E10 in automobiles are not supported by anecdotal evidence (as virtually all classic cars in the USA have been running on it for decades now, without issue) nor formal evidence.

My cars typically go into winter hibernation (and have been hibernating longer, sadly, these last few years) and always fire up when required. No goo, and I've changed the carb fuel filters after long naps and still find petrol in full fluid form in them.

For anyone interested in the documents I've compiled on ethanol in fuel, and from what I consider to be pretty much unimpeachable sources, have a look at the collection on my Google Drive: Ethanol in Automotive Fuels.

The material there stands on its own, and is written by experts, not me.

Brian, who has no problem with his lawn mower or gas powered string trimmer and E10, either
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3445
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 21 August, 2019 - 08:13:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,

Unfortunately, your experience is not matched by those of us who live in humid climates with warm days and cold nights. I suspect your local climate may be one where relative humidity levels are low and heavy overnight condensation [dew] is not a regular event.

Here on the NSW Mid-North Coast, the situation is different especially for boat owners as the local Volunteer Coastal Patrol bases used to receive regular callouts for petrol-engined boat stoppages when E10 was first released. These stopped when the local automotive fuel outlets were exempted from having to stock E10 as a significant percentage of their sales was to trailer boat owners. Marinas were always exempt from the E10 mandated stocking as a consequence of industry opposition from the time the government mandated stocking began which subsequently proved to be soundly based.

"Horses for courses" rules certainly apply in our locality with regard to E10 which was largely mandated after expensive lobbying of the Governments by vested interests.

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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2933
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 21 August, 2019 - 12:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

I suggest you look at the weather patterns in the Shenandoah Valley. We're hot and humid (and the last few days have been intense - just as a note) and in the spring and fall heavy dews are not at all uncommon.

I want to make clear that I am not, and am not attempting to, make any statements comparing automotive and marine applications. There are distinct differences just as there are for use in airplane fuel. Marine fuel in the USA is more typically available in with or without ethanol based on the age of the vessel into which it's being pumped. Newer boats that use modern sealants and lines are completely unfazed by ethanol while vintage boats are often not, particularly with regard to sealants used for the fuel tanks. Most have had their fuel lines replaced with standard ethanol tolerant lines ages ago but their fuel tank sealants do not like ethanol.

My main point being is that the E10 horror stories have been, in my experience and observation of a long time now, up there with the stories about the impending demise of classic cars with the introduction of unleaded fuel and the destruction of motors when ZDDP was being reduced. Neither has happened and the vast bulk of the populace is pumping and pouring that which is readily available.

I will continue to express my skepticism of most of the claims, along with the documentation from my research, strictly for the purpose of making sure that it's been seen and considered. Each individual can and should do their own analysis and make the decisions with which they are comfortable.

Since I have no choice, none, about using E10 and have been using it almost exclusively in all cars I've owned, and for decades, my personal experience and observation of the world around me in several states (Pennsylvania, Virginia, and New York) are that it is simply not problematic in the vast majority of vehicles, regardless of their vintage. Fuel system rubber gets replaced, repeatedly, as a matter of course over the lifetime of long lived cars. There are very few on the road that aren't using modern "rubber" these days. I can only speak for the situation in the USA, though, and expect that folks elsewhere are aware of the prevailing situations in their venues. If those are really different, then their courses of action should be, too.

It's all about informed choice, and not accepting anything as "the only way."

Brian
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3446
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 21 August, 2019 - 14:13:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,

I deliberately refrained from my final supporting evidence and that is our "expert" authorities after trying to completely phase out straight unleaded fuel in favour of E10 arguing that it was suitable for all post 1990 vehicles and pre-1990 vehicles would soon disappear from our roads; they have had to revert to authorising the sale of 91RON straight unleaded fuel, they now classify E10 as 94RON implying it is a "performance fuel" and our true high-performance fuel is 98RON pure unleaded fuel.

It is relevant to note 91RON unleaded outsells 94RON E10 despite being more expensive and a significant proportion of our car fleet is compliant with E10 fuel.

These fuels are not relevant to me as all our vehicles are diesel-engined and the two turbo-diesels are more economical and have equal or better performance than their petrol equivalents.

For example, our 2.5L diesel turbo Mazda CX5 AWD 6speed auto consistently uses 6.1L/100km [38mpg US, 45mpg UK] for highway driving and 7/7.5L/100km [34mpg US 40mpg UK] for city driving. My partner's VW Eos DSG is even more economical however it is only used for country driving and only sees the city when it is due for a service.

The diesels are an interim choice pending our future home conversion to off-grid photovoltaic home electricity generation and their replacement with electric vehicles capable of a 550km range in summer with constant airconditioning.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2180
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 21 August, 2019 - 17:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Uk is mostly on E5 but not E10.

Classic cars are having a hard time with E5 as are all the garden petrol machines when not delt with when left over the winter months.
The 2 stroke motors is another story of the failing with E5.

I have done my bit with the clean air running the new addition Tesla, Leaf and not forgetting the Rolls Royce Shadows running on the LPG conversion that I carried out many years ago.
Even 10 year old the Citroen HDI engines running 195grams per k/m still don't register on the later emission testing machines, Design and running pigs pee! is the key.

Here in the UK you are paid for all the electric you use [FITs] with the max size array the payback is thousands 20 years tax free, this would be lost if you go off grid, so I am tied to a standing charge
each day.
One advantage is the supply of off peak electric if the weather becomes cloudy.

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Trevor P Hodgkinson
New User
Username: wm20

Post Number: 30
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Thursday, 22 August, 2019 - 01:03:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

As mentioned earlier.
No problems here in Sydney NSW running E10, if you are using t regularly.
I have replaced around 50 carburettor float bowls over the 5 years I have been doing mowers, where the zinc plating has been eaten by the phase separated water/ ethanol mix.
OTOH I have run more than one vehicle on strait dope with no problems at all.
Local weather patterns , right down to the micro climate and of course the local bowser brew will all make a difference.
The 20's to 50's motorcycles run e 10 ( if I have to ) without problems but they are always starved off at the end of the day so the float bowls are empty.
Nearly all fuel line that has been sold in the past 20 years is E 10 compatible but that does not stop me finding the odd length of very old line turned to mush inside.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2181
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Thursday, 22 August, 2019 - 03:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

And it seems that Rolls Royce only give the ok on cars manufactured from 2003 running on the Ethanol mix, Phantoms etc.
If running E5 in the uk with most pre 2003 cars with an annual low mileage and laid up in the winter then many probs are going to be caused within the fuel system.
Goodness knows what the E10 will be like.
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Graham Hutton
Experienced User
Username: gph

Post Number: 68
Registered: 01-2019
Posted on Wednesday, 16 October, 2019 - 06:50:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

E10 aside, I use (as recommended) Premium unleaded 98 in my 87 SZ. Does anyone (in Australia/Queensland) use a Lower octane fuel in their tank? And if so what is your experience. I use (or at least endeavour to use) my car on a weekly basis .
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3494
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 16 October, 2019 - 08:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Graham,

Depends on the compression ratio of the engine fitted to your car which, in turn, depends on where the car was first delivered.

If my memory is correct, the 1987 model SZ was not originally fitted with E10 compatible fuel system parts when delivered but this needs further confirmation.

If not, I would purchase the ethanol fuel upgrade kits for the fuel pumps and carburettors from Burlen before using E10 on a regular basis [I am assuming 94 octane is suitable for the compression ratio of your engine]. If not and you are not bothered by the cost of 98 octane fuel, I would use this fuel on a regular basis and tune your engine accordingly to maximise the benefits from the higher octane.
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Graham Hutton
Experienced User
Username: gph

Post Number: 69
Registered: 01-2019
Posted on Wednesday, 16 October, 2019 - 21:07:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David, thanks for your comments, I am happy enough to keep using 98 octane for now, Id rather be safe than sorry.
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Nigel Coombe
New User
Username: nigel_adelaide

Post Number: 36
Registered: 10-2017
Posted on Sunday, 24 November, 2019 - 19:43:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Live in Adelaide and use 91 unleaded in my 88 Spirit and in my 88 turbo R and no trouble .
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3518
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Monday, 25 November, 2019 - 07:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

91 unleaded does not contain ethanol however 94 E10 contains 10% ethanol and must not be used unless the Burlen conversion kits for the entire fuel system have been installed.

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