| Author | Message | ||
     Michael Evans New User Username: mikeyev60 Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2015 |
My 1981 Silver Spirit sometimes (and with increasing frequency) won't respond to twisting the key to start it. The ignition comes on, the fuel pump is running, but when twisted to start nothing happens. Any ideas? | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1394 Registered: 6-2009 |
Michael, There are several things that could be going wrong. If your car (like so many) was inclined to leak oil from the valve covers and the starter solenoid connections have become covered with oil and crud over the years you can sometimes get enough resistance there that the solenoid doesn't activate. The first thing I'd do is check out the condition of the electrical connections at the starter (after, of course, having disconnected the battery first). If they're a filthy mess I'd clean them all up, apply electrically conductive grease before putting them back together, and see if that solves your problem. If you're lucky, it will. The second possibility is that your Lucas starter is giving up the ghost. The symptoms you describe are exactly what happened with my Silver Shadow II. Over time, and with increasing frequency, turning the key would result in a loud click (the starter solenoid energizing) but nothing from the starter. For a long time I could generally get the car to crank on the second or third try, but eventually it just stopped working at all. If that's your situation then you need to have the starter rebuilt or replace it with a more modern gear-reduction type, which is what Crewe used on the later SZ cars. There are several sources for these and, given their weight, the one you choose is often dictated by shipping charges to where you're living. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 767 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Michael When you turn the key to start, can you hear a click? If not, after having cleaned off the starter/solenoid terminals, hook up a meter to check if a voltage is there when the ignition key is fully turned. If there is no voltage, then check out the neutral start switch. This is the switch that prevents you starting the car when "D" is selected. If faulty it will prevent you from starting the car in "P" or "N" as well. The problem could also be caused by a worn ignition switch. If you get a click when you try to start the engine, this indicates the solenoid is getting power so no need at this stage to check the electrical connections. Concentrate on the starter motor. Also, before doing anything, make sure your battery is ok. Geoff | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1395 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, I only wish I'd mentioned "Check your Battery" first!! Always go for the simplest check first. These starters need a lot of oomph from the battery to crank, unlike the gear reduction starters. That neutral safety switch is worth checking, too. I had originally thought this might be what was wrong with my car since it would frequently crank if I shifted from Park to Neutral, but that was just coincidence. I have known of these to be selectively cranky such that they function correctly in Neutral but not in Park. Brian | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Prolific User Username: bob_uk Post Number: 126 Registered: 5-2015 |
Disconnect ignition coil so engine cannot start. Turn key to start position and move gear lever around. Sometimes the inhibitor switch(s) go slightly out of adjustment and a wiggle hits a sweet spot. | ||
| David Towers Experienced User Username: xtriple Post Number: 34 Registered: 6-2010 |
Was a cure for this ever found? Mine has started doing the same thing; turn the key and.... nothing. All the dash lights stay on, nothing dims, no relay clicking (that I can hear anyway) just no turning of the starter motor. I have spoken to various electrical people and they all say to 'wait until it fails' as finding odd and intermittent faults like these are difficult. Because it is totally random there is no way that I can get it to non perform for an expert, and if I call assistance, it is always working perfectly again before they arrive. Very annoying. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1973 Registered: 4-2003 |
David, From past experience, I suspect the starter solenoid has worn contacts which do not allow the solenoid to complete the circuit connecting the starter motor direct to the battery. This problem has the characteristics you describe first occurring infrequently and getting more frequent over time until the contact surfaces are completely eroded away. I had this problem with DRH14434 [1973 build] and fixed it by dismantling the solenoid and replacing the contacts with new ones I made from a length of appropriate dimension Copper flat bar. From distant memory spanning 20 years, this involved bending 2 suitable lengths cut from the bar into "L" shapes drilled appropriately to take the cable terminal bolts for the battery lead and the lead from the solenoid to the starter motor live terminal. I vaguely remember these contacts were located under a cover on the end of the solenoid. I cannot recall whether I had to remove the starter motor to access the solenoid or not but I do remember it was a relatively simple and easy repair once the solenoid was removed from the engine. You can test continuity of the solenoid main contact with a multimeter set to measure resistance across the two main battery feed terminals. For safety reasons, use a suitable extension cable with alligator clips to connect the multimeter to the solenoid terminals so you can test the continuity standing alongside the car rather than being underneath the car. | ||
| David Towers Experienced User Username: xtriple Post Number: 36 Registered: 6-2010 |
Thank you very much. I shall investigate.  | ||
| Jonas TRACHSEL Frequent User Username: jonas_trachsel Post Number: 83 Registered: 2-2005 |
Another well known cause for this problem is the ignition lock itself. After years of use these can wear out, especially if the ignition key is part of a heavy bundle of different keys. If the starter relay tests described by David Gore do not help solve the problem this might be the next item to check. Try wiggling the ignition key in the start position and see if that helps. | ||
| David Towers Experienced User Username: xtriple Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2010 |
Thank you Jonas, I have wiggled and waggled keys, gear lever and relays to my hearts content. None of it has made the slightest difference. I thought it was heat related as it refused to start after a 'spirited' drive the other day. But I went back the same way and drove in a similar manner and it started absolutely fine several times as I had errands to do. There really is no rhyme or reason to it. It can go days without failing and being used locally so lots of starts or it can fail on the second occasion I try it after five minutes of running. It never does it from cold though. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1162 Registered: 5-2012 |
David I had the same problem on my 74 SY1. In my case the loss of engine cranking was accompanied by a click. As you can see from above, it can be caused by any number of reasons. Confronted with this intermittent problem I went into full diagnostic mode. One of the best tests you can do is to run a jump wire from the main power cable on the starter motor, to the solenoid connector. The solenoid is integral with the starter motor. If the engine cranks each time you apply the jump wire, you know you have a wiring connector or starter relay problem. If the engine will not crank, then you know the starter motor/solenoid unit is at fault. However, there remains the problem that if the engine cranks when the jump wire is used, the result of the test is still not absolutely conclusive, because the jump wire test may have corresponded to the intermittent nature of the fault. i.e. the engine may have cranked anyway on one more turn of the key. The only conclusive method is to run the test several times, as and when the fault occurs. In practice of course this is a problem, as you have to remove the front wheel to get access to the starter motor/solenoid connectors. So I fitted a switch and inline fuse to the jump wires and mounted it in the engine compartment. This allowed me to run the diagnostic test whenever it occurred. There is a picture of it in the following thread: http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/19580.html?1460261766 I was able to ascertain the starter motor/solenoid was NOT at fault. It took couple of weeks to conclusively prove this, as the fault only occurred occasionally. Incidentally, knowing the starter motor was ok and that the fault was buried somewhere in the car wiring, I had a built in insurance policy. If I got stranded anywhere, it was just a case of pushing the "auxiliary" starter button. It may seem I went to a lot of trouble to find this fault, but don't get into the habit of "living with it". It really detracts from the enjoyment of the car if you are having to "cross your fingers" every time you try to start it. I think the advice you have been given, to 'wait until it fails' is wholly unreasonable. How many tow trucks will you need before the fault becomes permanent. Just my tuppence worth. Geoff BTW - To cut a long story short, the fault on my car was caused by the starter relay. Since I have replaced it the car has cranked first time, every time. | ||
| David Towers Experienced User Username: xtriple Post Number: 39 Registered: 6-2010 |
Thank you for that, great post. I agree about the 'waiting to fail' thing but the majority of people round here are dreadful and want nothing to do with 'odd' cars and my Bentley seems to fit the description to a Tee! I have just changed the starter inhibit relay and will wait and see if that fixes it. Not hopeful but I like to know the cause of things so will change one thing at a time until the problem is cured. Next will be the starter relay... which would have been the first port of call for any sensible person! | ||
| David Towers Frequent User Username: xtriple Post Number: 59 Registered: 6-2010 |
Getting really REALLY fed up with this now. The car has been at the specialists for two and a half weeks having investigations and various things sent away for testing. We seem to be, no further on! So far, I have (personally) changed all the relays under the bonnet and the battery. The specialist have now changed a further two relays that they now of and I don't, the ignition box has been sent away for testing (fine!) the starter has been tested (fine)and all the wiring checked/cleaned. Nothing has made a difference. The next thing going away is the alarm control ecu... All of this is both costly and taking a lot of time... I want to drive the car! The other main problem with this car and one that precludes them from just swapping known good components into my car is the fact that it is such a late vehicle and most things are different! Even this alarm ecu is different to the earlier cars... Edit... I have just sent a couple of the above posts to them in the search for ideas, hope you do not mind guys? | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Prolific User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 297 Registered: 4-2015 |
David... Both the solution and nature of your problem are rather straight forward and you touched on them without realizing it. Please do not "shoot the messenger" and I mean no disrespect to any of the parties involved. Bottom line: You are simply having the wrong person work on your car. These are really specialized automobiles and there is no subsitute for experience with them. Even though you live in an rural area, it is still England, and there are lots of places that really do know how to fix a Bentley. For all the time, effort, grief, not to mention money, that you have spent, you would be better off simply trailering/flatbedding the car to an experienced authorized or independent RR/B service facility. What are you...450km from London? There must be a least a dozen along that route. Two and a half weeks to diagnose a starting problem is absurd. If someone like for instance Jack Barkley or Frank Dale in London had your car, they have seen hundreds of these "odd" contraptions, know what they are doing, have the diagnostic tools, and my money is that they would have the issue isolated within a hour. No doubt many of the smaller facilities, such as Paul Yorke's, would be no less successful because of their experience. Bite the bullet. Have your local guy put everything back together and deliver it to a specialist so that you can get on with your life and enjoy the car in running condition. Forgive me, but I'm just saying. Best wishes. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 546 Registered: 2-2013 |
Batteries can be complete swines as can the terminals which should be tight on the poles and cleaned thoroughly. A good car electrics place should have the problem diagnosed under an hour. A good way to get a massive repair cost is to take your car to a general workshop where the mechanic has no Rolls Royce or Bentley experience. Even if you are broke just having a Rolls Royce is an invitation to be fleeced intensely. If you have no mechanical experience you need to locate a RR/B specialist fast. The closest RR/B club will know a few of them. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1991 Registered: 6-2009 |
Vladimir, I have to disagree with you entirely on the RR/Bentley specialist assertion. The vast majority of the things I have "been fleeced" on in the past were from a RR/Bentley specialist. A good, honest, and skilled mechanic is perfectly able to handle pretty much everything these cars need, provided they're willing to consult the workshop manual when the "boutique engineering" or other simply unfamiliar things come up. I would have been living in an appliance carton down at the local corner and sitting in front of it with a tin cup had I used my closest RR/Bentley specialist as my sole or primary maintenance or repair source. I don't disagree, though, that showing up in a Rolls-Royce is an invitation to fleecing by the far too common unscrupulous types. There are plenty of honest folk to choose from, at least in my little corner of the world, and I've used them to do certain work I couldn't do or didn't want to do with no loss of wallet. Brian | ||
| C Lungmuss Unregistered guest |
Good morning David, I have been following the thread on the starter problems you have been having. I was never going to put my experience of a problem I had with the Bentley Turbo as it just seemed to involved but the end result might throw some light on your problem. The Bentley would start run for a few seconds then stop. Turn the key again it would run for a few seconds then stop. First check was the petrol pump, so as the pump on the car had been on the car for 24 years I felt I would put on a new one as good practice. I went through two new (Genuine Bosch?) petrol pumps before I got one that would work. It was not petrol feed, so I had the engine run sensor checked and the ECU. Here is the crunch bit, after checking all the wiring fuses etc I found that the feed to the ECU was live until connected to the fuel injection. Bentley at Birmingham were most helpful in letting me have a look at the full wiring diagram and made practical suggestions as possible cause of the electrical failure. As I could not move the car to them I called in a local motor electrician. He came on time with all his test gear and said if he could not locate the fault in 30 mins he would run a separate fused feed. He could not locate the fault so pulled apart the main connector under the bonnet to put in a feed and said straight away I think I have found your problem! Inside was quite corroded, he cleaned it, re-soldered the joint, reconnected, I turned the key and the car fired up and ran. I have left out a lot of the detail to get to the point that the problem was intermittent due to a bad connection. In previous years I had always experienced a problem starting when the engine was hot, not any more that problem has been solved as well!! David possibly you may need to look for a bad connection that is giving you an intermittent fault. I am hoping this helps, regards, Clive (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| David Towers Frequent User Username: xtriple Post Number: 62 Registered: 6-2010 |
Thought I'd update this... The car finally came back from the specialist (Specialist Cars at Exeter) having had the switch box tested (all okay) and then sending the alarm/immobiliser/cdl ECU away. It took many weeks for the repairer to return this unit (car was away a total of 9 weeks!) but it was cheaper than a new one from Flying spares and they also repaired my key fob. After Paul and Craig tested it extensively for four days, they returned the car to me last week. I used it as my daily driver, and the weather here is hot (not the kind of 'hot' you guys out in the colonies get, but hot for us softies!) and the car was stopped and started repeatedly usually after short periods of time, and (touch wood, cross fingers and whistle)it has been absolutely fine! Long may this happy state of affairs last... | ||
| david allen Unregistered guest |
my 1987 silver spirit engine still runs with the ignition turned off chassis no scazsooo7hch20613 (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Experienced User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 48 Registered: 5-2016 |
I had a similar problem with my Silver Shadow 11. Had to abandon it once outside a shop because the engine did not crank when I turned the key but the dash light worked, I came back later with a trailer but the car started on the first turn of the key. A few weeks later It failed again although there had been no issues in between. I eventually traced the problem to a corroded isolator switch on the battery earth wire. I replace the isolator switch and it's been fine since, that was approx. 2 years ago. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 537 Registered: 4-2015 |
David... Can't be much help with the problem, but I have to ask just the same: Is the car still running, or did it eventually run out of gas and stop? | ||
| David Allen Unregistered guest |
Christian Pulled the fuse on the pump to stop it. Spoke to the main rolls Royce electrician in my area with no joy. fitted a temporary cut out switch to coil to allow continued use Still looking for a cure. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 563 Registered: 4-2015 |
David... Good thinking...as well as your workaround. I was, of course, being facetious which, when faced with such problems, is not entirely a great help, but figured that you had the problem under control. You don't suppose that it is an electircal issue somehow related to the ignition switch simply not cutting off the electrical feed as it should? Did the electrician truly verify that there was no electrical feed from the switch when in the OFF position but yet ignition still continued to run? Such would seem counterintuitive. . |
