| Author | Message | |||
     bobuk Unregistered guest Posted From: client-86-29-85-121.brig.adsl.tesco.net |
When I brought my car in 1989 the owner said that he had just had the brakes serviced by a non RR garage. They said they had a lot of trouble getting the brakes to work "well enough for the MOT" I reduced the money by £500 to cover the brake work. When I got the car home I tried to bleed the brakes. Which took ages just as the gargage said. About a month later the brakes started to be eratic. So I changed all the hoses. The difference was dramatic. The brakes bleed easy and worked much better. They had the same power as before but the pedal was solid and just a wiggle of my big toe applied more braking effort. I cannot stress the importance of good hoses. Some think that the pressures that the Shadow runs at is high. In fact it is no higher than say a Ford cortina which RR "stole" the front calipers from. Which is why if you screw the pressure switches from the valve bodies in to the rear caliper on a Shad 1 the manual system will develop enough pressure to test the switch. Screw a pressure gauge in the other side to check the switch off pressure. The hoses that connect the accumulators to the chassis are stainless steel braided aero type thingys. The rest are rubber. There is no advantage in fitting steel hoses anywhere else. Because-- The main system has no feel so steel hoses will not be felt. The manual side is for feel and making it harder will not be felt because by the time the pressure in the manual side is enough to swell a rubber hoses the front wheels will be locked up by the power side. And the service life of a steel hose is about the same as a rubber one. If you live somewhere where parts are differcult. All the hose on my car 1974 are 3/8 UNF which is a very very very common size and is used on all NON METRIC systems so the only difference to other cars is purely the lenght. Brake hoses are listed against make and model however in the back of the book there is usually a buyers guide for the trade. This section has all the dimensions of the hoses. The hoses chosen can be a bit longer but never shorter. Also added bonus that the more popular sizes are very much cheaper such as £7 for a rear trailing arm hose which happens to be the same as a Bedford CF van. However Flying Spares do hose kits which work out cheaper than buying seperately. By law brake hoses must with stand pressures far exceeding 3000 psi. From memory 10,000psi for hoses and 17,500 psi for brake lines. the hoses should be marked with DOT. Lucas has a huge rangeand any brake specalist should be able to supply. Trouble is nowadays the guy behind the counter knows nothing about engineering dimensions and cannot use things like mircometers and vernier calipers. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1300 Registered: 4-2003 |
Why is this news ? Every properly maintained Silver Shadow will have had all its brake hoses replaced every 6 years or 96,000km/60,000 miles as strictly specified in the service schedules. It has always been a significant ex-dividend/cum-dividend price influence on these cars when resold. If any car of any make is left until the brake hoses rot, please send the mechanic and owner to Guantánamo Bay to rot away themselves and leave our children safe at the zebra crossing. | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1303 Registered: 4-2003 |
This is for later mineral-oil cars, but differs very little from the earlier SY service schedules. Note that the service designations changed from time to time: 1,2,3,4,5,6 ABCDE and the like. Note particularly that brake hoses and caliper seals are to be changed on the E-Service (page 2). When these schedules are followed, the public will never be endangered by avoidable brake failures.
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| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1304 Registered: 4-2003 |
ps: a certain gentleman in our midst has reminded us of why all routine hose replacements are not just for fun.  | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 738 Registered: 9-2004 |
Cripes and all these years i have been doing the Shadow ect 'HA' service at the recomended RR eight year 96000 mile which ever comes first stipulated interval on customers cars. Never six years or 60000 mile! In addition the replacment not just checking of the flex fuel lines after what can turn out to be a common failing resaulting in the car catching fire. We have a new brake safty failing it seems,the car looses two pressure systems at once when the car is on the move,i have never heard of that! One system yes with a warning but never two. The car should still do an emergency stop. Prehaps these failings point to the declining numbers of Shadows present at Kelmarsh Hall annual rally or prehaps was it the heavy rain on the Saturday! Sunday "wow" was another story. (Message edited by pat lockyer on 27 September 2007) | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 740 Registered: 9-2004 |
Not if the rr363 is changed every two years talking Shadows here! | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1307 Registered: 4-2003 |
Whoops. I did make more than a few mistakes comparing the SZs to the SYs. The SZ hoses, according to this variant in my own service booklet, are due for replacement just every 4 (four) years, or 60,000 miles/96,000km for high mileage cars, but the caliper seals only every 8 years. Other variants of the service schedule do differ. Mind you, a caliper not serviced in 5 years must be a concern. Why the SYs were allowed 6 year hose changes is a dilemma, but we are not talking about cheap cars and skimpy maintenance after all.
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| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 930 Registered: 4-2003 |
Richard/ We will never know but I have the impression that while RR363 may be a great hygroscoperator and paint remover, mineral oil is fairly unkind to rubber. Note the emphasis on keeping the stuff off the tyres which is a natural prophylaxis but I sense something a bit more lethal here. Then there is this embuggerance with callipers leaking apparently quite common according to operators here. The ones I have done did not have obvious damage to the seals -they just leaked. So one wonders how the hoses stand up to the stuff! And whilst on the subject of hoses has anyone had the problem of the protective spring unwinding from the front hoses? The material in the spring (I think it is plastic)is much lighter than the original. | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1309 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bill, I am sure that you are completely correct, and the logic is presumably why caliper overhauls on mineral oil cars are needed far more often than on the earlier ones. May I suppose that it is a shame that the hydraulics took ten leaps forward with mineral oil, and another ten leaps with the 20,000-series, but the calipers became basket cases. Still, if we follow the maintenance shedules we should be safe. Likewise, I would never fly on a QF747 if I thought that Qantas was skimping on hoses as Swissair did before a few of their aeroplanes crashed and they went bust. I was booked one one of those SR planes, but caught an earlier flight. | |||
| Paul Yorke Frequent User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 93 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Bill, I've not come across unwinding springs. Is it possible they are slightly too long and catching on the metal ends? How about a blob of silicone on the metal to anchor them? Hi the rest of you: The front calliper seals are more prone to leaking on Mineral oil cars, That's for sure. However, they never 'fail' as such. Just a weep that is easily spotted at routine servicing, Any darker, dustier, or damp patches spotted near the brake pads should prompt removal of the pad and closer inspection. I've never known any brake failures or causes for concern from these. Any owners only doing low mileages (up to a few thousand miles) between services, don't let your garage do a service without removing the wheels ( main agents especially ).(make sure the rear pads especially are squeezed completely back and are free in the callipers.) The SZ hoses and seals are made from different materials to the R363 and do handle time better than either the calliper seals or the R363 hoses. Mineral oil in a shadow turns everything to vastly expanded jelly. (At least that's easy to spot!) On Shadows and sticky brakes. If any dragging of brakes is found then hoses should be the FIRST suspect. Even if sticky callipers or pads are found, this can ALSO be a sign of restricted hoses not 'exercising' the callipers properly. The only mechanism pulling the pads from the discs is the 2mm seal in the calliper trying to return to it's original shape when the pedal is released. As you can imaging, there's not much force there. Any restriction or resistance will negate that effort and the pads will drag. As the hoses close up further, they will be actively held on. When the hoses closes up completely, it will only allow fluid through on under very heavy braking, bat then the fluid will be trapped at the calliper and the brake will seize on. By that time the pads will probably be hardly moving in the calliper or possibly seized. This often prompts the 'logical' conclusion that the pads were seized causing the seized brakes. Freeing out the pads will seem to cure the problem. UNTIL the next emergency stop. The hoses to the left hand rear trailing arms are usually the first to go. ( Heat from the exhaust?)Sticky brakes here should set alarm bells ringing. Change ALL the hoses together. Don't forget the two rat trap to front sub-frame hoses. I've never known of a brake failure from a split or burst rubber hose on a R-R. ( Mechanical damage excepted ) | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 741 Registered: 9-2004 |
As this thread was under Shadows and now seems to include the later models and planes I thought i would mention Citroens. With the high pressure lines, hoses were bad news. My knowledge all hydraulic high pressure systems were fitted without the use of any hoses[clever with the coilled pipes ] and have stood the test of time. Hum a mod for RR maybe. As for the low pressure rubber pipes they can leak it seems from five years onwards with LHM. Paul my thoughts on the hoses failing mainly on the n/s RHD I have put down to the uneven road condition, pot holes etc with the more suspension movement travel, it would be interesting wether this is the case with LHD cars with the failings to the o/s. On a different subject of intrest. Service bulletin from Fords,leakage from wheel cylinders within the lifted boot is for lubrication do not replace,Cripes! (Message edited by pat lockyer on 29 September 2007) | |||
| Bill Payne New User Username: wimpy Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2007 |
This company made a complete set of stainless hoses for my Cloud II with new fittings for something like $12 US each, I simply carried my old rubber flex hoses in and asked them to duplicate. http://www.royalbrassandhose.com/ They are also perfectly equipped to produce AC & Power Steering hoses to your requirements. (Message edited by wimpy on 15 December 2007) | |||
| Gus Brogden Experienced User Username: gus Post Number: 32 Registered: 2-2008 |
I've been driving my 68 Shadow so far this spring and thought today's sun and warmth would make for a good day to bring the 77 Shadow out of the garage for some cleaning and service. She fired right up, having not been started since january. It was out of the garage for a minute when a brake pressure and fluid level light came on. I shut it down right away knowing something was up and at the same time saw smoke. I grabbed the fire extinguisher that I keep on the front passenger side floor,and the hood catch was popped already, so I was under the hood in a second. I blew the high pressure outlet hose at the ferrule and it peed a steam of 363 on the exhaust pipe. It smoked for a minute, but that was it. If the car had been running for longer than it was and I didnt have an extinquisher, well, you can guess the rest, I would have a nice warning photo for this colunm. I keep an extinguisher in both my RR's, and today it kept the anxiety to a minimum. Imagine if it happened under other circumstances, it would have been more bumpers and another grill on ebay. I will never leave home without a fire supressor, the cheapest forty dollar insurance package I ever bought. I know, I know, it's one of four hoses I havent changed yet. I guess I will be doing them a bit quicker than I planned... |
