| Author | Message | |||
     Jeffrey McCarthy Experienced User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2007 |
This happened on SRH20280 while I was driving today, about 5 minutes after I'd lowered the drivers window I tried to raise it again. Nothing from any window. I've continutity tested all the fuses and diodes, taken the lining off the driver's door and checked - no obvious damage but some of the connections needed cleaning with a wire brush. I'm assuming at this point that because it happened suddenly it's probably a relay or the main power feed earthing somewhere and will current test the circuits over the next few days trying to trace the fault. I have the circuit diagram and a resident 240v sparkie so it's just a question of time; however if anybody has any ideas for obvious things to test first it would be helpful. Actually if anyone knows which bits of panelling etc will reveal the actual position of the relays by the quickest possible route that would be useful too. Meanwhile my driver's window is locked in the down position and I'll trawl through the technical library to find the instructions for raising it manually. | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 732 Registered: 9-2004 |
Try resetting thermol cut out In dash panel. | |||
| John Kilkenny Experienced User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 47 Registered: 6-2005 |
Jeffrey, If none of the windows operate, a likely cause is loss of voltage to the four window fuses at the top of the fuse panel, F15-18. Check for 12 volts on these fuses. There is a common connection to the interior lamps, are these working OK ? | |||
| Paul Yorke Frequent User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 80 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jeffrey, To get the window up: Put a supply to either the red or green wire going to the motor. earth the other wire. This should get it moving. Reverse the polarity if it goes down. When your windows were working did the ignition have to be turned on for them to work? Is it an original Aussie spec car? | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 733 Registered: 9-2004 |
Jeffrey to help you find the rascal if it is the fault, it is located under the glove box in the lower cubby hole for hand book. press red button to reset. If it cures the prob and it returns let us know for further info that may well not be in the book!  | |||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Experienced User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2007 |
Firstly Paul - yes it is an Oz delivery and the ignition must be on for any of the windows to work. Out of curiosity is this different for overseas cars? Patrick - thanks for the photo, I wondered what that thing that looks like fuse box otter switch was for under there. Will try it first thing after I recharge the battery(flattened it while testing things yesterday) John - I checked behind there for loose connections but will test for voltage today. The interior lamps are all working (helped to flatten the battery) which is a good sign. Thanks to all and I'll keep you posted. | |||
| Paul Yorke Frequent User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 81 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Jeffrey, Hopefully the button will do it. I think on UK cars all windows are on different circuits though. I guess that the drivers window circuit may be used for powering something extra on Aus cars. . Different countries had different safety rules. UK car windows work all the time. Australian cars ( at various times ) also had different keys for the ignition than the doors. Non-tinted windows. Black indicator switch and gear shift stalks. Among other weird and wonderful safety features! Your government don't like to let you guys live dangerously!  Uk windows have a direct feed to the fuses then to the cut out switch. I guess that feed is probably interrupted by a relay energised on ignition for 'non permanent windows.' When sending UK cars to the USA we had to add relays to make the cars comply with US EPA rules. Many cars (done by less scrupulous garages ) just had the wires chopped and fed all four windows from any old ignition feed. Thankfully - 4 windows are not often used at the same time! But this also makes tracing faults more difficult. | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1287 Registered: 4-2003 |
Being a product for the global market, these cars were basically all built the same, with the provisions for certain features either applied or not. There are many electrical cables not used on many cars, installed to standardise the wiring looms and assemblies. If I look at my BMW, it has unused cables and connectors all over the place too for the same reason. On later Crewe cars, these include dim dip headlamps and one-shot window lifts as examples. In the case of the windows, there is a relay cutout for the Australian market from about 1974. US cars also often have a master cutout switch on the driver's door, the switch being deleted and simply bridged for other markets. The relay, controlled by the ignition and mabe faulty in your case, has its socket simply bridged out (see the dotted line) for other markets like the UK. A change from always active to windows disabled without ignition or back is a 5 minute job as the socket is there on all cars. Either remove the bridge and plug in a relay or the reverse. Mine ('72 and '87) are configured to work all the time as it is a pain to open the car and to fumble for the keys during a sudden Summer's downpour. Either pressing the door switch or a short press on the remote control does it all much more easily, but that is only possible with the windows not ignition-activated or with an added relay activated by the remote locking. I also like to use the remote to unlock the car and to open the windows to cool it off in Summer 5 minutes before approaching the car, and usually open the driver's window by the door switch before putting the key in the ignition year-round too. Operating all four windows at once is no problem for the electrics. The only downside was when my daughter jammed a lolly paper in the switch and the battery flattened once.  | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1289 Registered: 4-2003 |
Here is a clearer diagramme in PDF. The relay interlock became the norm as part of the dreaded design rule ADR27a, or if not around that time.
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| Trevor P Hodgkinson New User Username: wm20 Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2006 |
Well while we are talking about windows. On one of my shadows the windows will only work if the door is closed while the others will work regardless of the door position. Is that likely to be a "design" feature or has some previous owner committed some crime such as feeding the windows via the interior lamp circuit? Regards trevor | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 734 Registered: 9-2004 |
Trevor, Maybe the most common cause is the start of broken wire or wires in the door shut loom. When door is closed the wires make contact,open door and they seperate! | |||
| Peter Colwell Frequent User Username: peter_colwell Post Number: 56 Registered: 3-2005 |
Digressing slightly, the modern tendency towards 'keyless entry' has its problems... A friend and his wife recently approached their new 'keyless entry' car, with the keys in his pocket. His wife got in, pressed the big red 1950s START button, started the car, waved goodbye, and departed. She did not get far before the engine stopped, the car locked itself, and the alarm went off...... | |||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Experienced User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2007 |
Richard - thanks that all makes sense. Where exactly is the relay/bridge physically located? Is is above the passenger lower glove box on Aust delivered cars or hiding somewhere else like the drivers door? | |||
| Trevor P Hodgkinson New User Username: wm20 Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2006 |
Patrick, Now that you mention it the window ( and door locking systems) do seem to suffer random tantrums so I might go out this weekend , pull the sleves out and have a good look. I had always suspected bad earthing as I seldom got much better that 10 Volts till I read the post on the terminal blocks behind the kick pannels, mine were not good so I pulled out all of the terminals & cleaned them up. This did make the whole system much more reliable. To whoever posted that one thanks a million. | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 735 Registered: 9-2004 |
Yes the old slow window saga,never a prob till the cars aged and then the connections mainly earths caused a feeble voltage etc etc. | |||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Experienced User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2007 |
Okay, I made up temporary bridging links to keep the wires from the otter switch in order while I removed and tested it. If it had been the otter switch this would have by-passed the problem. I tested continuity on all the otter connections and no problem. This does rather narrow it down to the ignition relay -- which I'd like to by-pass anyway for the reasons Richard gave above. I tried the trick with the feed direct to the driver's door motor. I found the green wire but the only others connected seemed to be 2 varieties of yellow. (The only red wires were to the lock motor.) I could get the window motor to 'click' on what I assume was 'down' but not vice versa. Someone had been in there before me I gather as there were some newer looking bits of electrical tape around some connections. So I do still need to know where this relay is located. Incidentally does anyone have an update on progress regarding the new book on Shadow electrics launched earlier this year? Cheers, Jeff | |||
| Paul Yorke Frequent User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 82 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jeffrey, The inhibit seems to be done by breaking the earth circuit to the windows. So you should have feeds to the motor when you operate the switches. Using a 12v test light ( or volt meter) check for feed to the motor (or clutch. yellow & yellow/black ) if you find a feed at them - remove the feed from one side and supply an earth instead. (Swap it if that is down instead of up.) If there is no feed there then you need to test for a 12v supply, at fuses 1st, then at circuit breakers. etc. until you get to the door. If no supply at the fuses, make a temporary bridge from a 12v feed. ( say interior light fuse ) to the window fuse and then try the window. Good luck! | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1291 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jeff, You are looking for item 197 below. The PDF file is clearer if you download it. You may also like to see my website on how to make the windows work properly. This modification has been implemented on over 1,000 cars now, and has been very successful. It also shows how to convert them from the mad arrangement whereby the motor windings are both held live at 12V at all times. See: http://homepage.swissonline.ch/Richard_Treacy/WindowLifts.html 
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| John Kilkenny Experienced User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 48 Registered: 6-2005 |
Jeffrey, Because all four window lifts are failing there should be no need to remove door linings to find the fault. The first thing to do is to check for 12 volts at the fuses (F15-18). It should be there whether the ignition is on or off. Then with the ignition on check for 12 volts on the green wire on the Window Lift Relay and ground on the black wire. If OK so far and the windows still don't work, the relay may be faulty so join the other wire on the relay (green with a black tracer ?)to the black wire (ground). If still failing you will need to do some wire tracing. | |||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Experienced User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2007 |
Firstly thanks all; especially Richard -- the diagrams really did help me track down where I was -- I think. I removed the headroll, panels and fascia and followed the circuit from the otter switch to the fuse box to the bridge near the drivers door and found no relay -- certainly nothing like the configuration above. There has either been some extensive re-wiring done already or the relays wern't installed in the first place on this particular car (late '74). After extensively following the circuits it's clear that I'll need someone with a working familiarity of the looms to follow the logic of what is doing what on this car; I've also just lost the fuel gauge and the one idiot light that was working (coolant) so it may be something more fundamental that is playing up. The aftermarket temp gauge is working so at least I'll have some insight into the cooling system. I'll work on just getting the window up for now; she is going down to Melbourne for some work hopefully within 3 to 4 weeks so it's no major drama as long as I can nurse her there. I learnt a fair bit so, as always, not a waste of time at all. Once again thanks for all the trouble you've collectively gone to in order to help. Jeff | |||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Experienced User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2007 |
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry... After 2 days of doing nothing but try and fix the problem I just went to put the car in the garage, having given up for the day about an hour or so ago and...the windows all worked and the idiot lights too! Hopefully it was just some connection I cleaned somewhere or some loom I moved but I suspect it's going to be one of those "intermittent faults" the like of which has kept generations of autoelectricians in clover and owners like me in a constant state of pre-emptive anxiety. Definitely a champagne moment. Jeff :-) | |||
| Greig Robertson Unregistered guest Posted From: 90.240.168.209 |
the driver door window works fine but all other windows have stopped working, anybody got any ideas It is a 1971 shadow SRH13800 (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Prolific User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 170 Registered: 5-2007 |
Greig - it is probably either a fuse - one of the 4 long glass ones at the very top of the fuse box (30A) or the "Otter switch" in the cubby hole under the glovebox (look up into the the cubby hole from the floor - it's a black box with a red button - push the red button). For some reason I've found this sometimes works better with the ignition on - but that may be because I've got the darned relay or something else loose. This is basically a magnetic cut-out switch, a variety of fuse. If not you have a faulty earth somewhere I guess? However - and this is a weird coincidence - all 4 of mine stopped working again yesterday as well.SRH20280 '74 Shadow. I was playing around with another circuit at the time - without the battery disconnected (BC is gonna give me 100 more lines for this I know, if not '6 of the best') 1-I have checked all fuses 2-Disassembled the otter switch and checked it is working 3-Bridged the Green/Black and Green wires on a relay which is located at the base of the drivers A pillar above the drivers knee. This is on the opposite side of the car and differently positioned from the above diagram. DEAD - I suspect the whole relay is kaput. I have a supply of 30A/40A 5-pin relays with the new numbering system: 30 85 86 87 87a Does anyone know how the Lucas C-1-2-3 W-1-2 scheme translates into the new numbers? Could I temporarily replace a Lucas 6RA with a 30A relay? |
