| Author |
Message |
    
gef briggs
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 203.217.8.82
| | Posted on Monday, 23 August, 2004 - 12:25 pm: |    |
hello forum, thanks for the tip to use kerosene when cleaning the engine. recently i acquired a silver shadow 1970 #3559 with excellent body and paint has an oil leak so sprayed down the suspected area of the engine with a can of degreaser and then hosed off with water.is this the wrong procedure for future reference? after cleaning i noticed a pin-hole above the oil filter in the crankcase weeping oil.question is, what is a small round hole doing there. i'd be grateful for advice on this problem. i've recently retired from a commercial diving and taken up work for a friend who is a mechanic(david wright wynyard tas ex isle of man) thankyou gef |
David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore
Post Number: 276
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, 23 August, 2004 - 01:02 pm: | |
Hi Gef,
Do not use degreaser on the engine as it will discolour the alloy components permanently - straight kerosine washed off with water is best and you can use a truck cleaner such as CT18 to remove any residues and stop "water spotting".
I suspect the hole you refer to is one of the engine block weep holes intended to reveal breakdown of the O-rings that seal the piston liners in the block - again clean the area thoroughly and monitor the source of any leakage - it is possible the oil may be coming down from the rocker cover joint rather from inside the block. |
gef briggs
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 203.217.8.82
| | Posted on Monday, 23 August, 2004 - 02:05 pm: | |
hello david, yes i suspected the rocker cover box as well. as there was some oil weeping from this area. i tweeked up the bolts holding down the rocker cover.i was careful to do this only gently. after wiping and washing with degreaser(in hindsight i'll refrain from the degreaser in future)the area was clean from oil and grime then with the car on ramps and engine running i observed the oil weeping out this small hole and i suspect the opposite side may be leaking as well . so what happens next? thankyou gef |
Bill Coburn
Grand Master
Username: bill_coburn
Post Number: 229
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, 23 August, 2004 - 11:01 pm: | |
Let me promote a heresy. As David describes the 'tell tale holes' these lie between two seals lodged between the lower circumferance of the cylinder liners and the cylinder block. The idea is that if the upper seal leaks, coolant will leak out of the hole. If the lower one leaks engine oil will leak out of the hole. Some years ago I had a Silver Spirit in immaculate condition turn up on my drive which was literally dripping oil. On investigation it was found to be coming from the weep holes of the engine. Out of curiosity I wrote to the Factory and asked them in partial ignorance what they might suggest to overcome the problem given the miniscule mileage of the car. Back came the advice that removal of the liners and replacement of the seals was the cure. If I may exagerate a little that would be equivalent to removing the engines of the Titanic to rectify a leaking rivet in the bilge. The professional manhours to do such a job was well over 100 and with manhour rates running at over $140 dollars the bottom line was attracting a lot of attention.
I reasoned that oil getting past the lower seal was really of no consequence although having it micturate on the pavement was somewhat anti-social. And so for the cost of about $20 I carefully tapped the weep holes with a coarse thread and screwed in 1/4" grubscrews with some locktite. The car is still running many thousands of miles later and leaks not a drop of oil. Ah you yell but what if the upper seal goes you won't know and the oil will be contaminated!!! Well for those who have not suffered a leaking head gasket in a more conventional car (Ford is an excellent example) it takes very little coolant to get into the oil before you are wondering whether Mr Whippy has set up business in your sump. |
Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy
Post Number: 318
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, 24 August, 2004 - 01:54 am: | |
Further to Bill's comments, oil coming from the weep holes is not uncommon mainly on the older V8s.
I have seen many simply plugged up with silicone, and they seem to go on forever, many already for over 15 years without trouble already. That's breaking all the rules I know, but it does seem to be all but a permanent solution. 15 years is a pretty short period in the life of a Shadow of course.
On one Shadow, I enlarged the single leaking weep hole slightly, and Loctited a length of bundy tubing into it. With some plastic hose I fed it into a small reservoir to be emptied every 6 months or so when the oil and filter are changed. That has been totally successful for well over 15 years now. Maybe it's unnecessary and bunging up the hole would have done, but at least there can be no pressure or oil build up between the liner seals that way. Also, you can easily see whether coolant has started to leak.
I have been lucky enough never to have seen coolant leaking from the weep holes of one of these motors, but non-terminal oil leaks are common. Apart from a soiled driveway, oil leaks like this destroy the front engine mount in no time, let alone the suspension rubbers.
As Bill implies, it is a Titanic job to pull the motor down just for a lousy o-ring. A little circumspection is always sensible. Having said that, oil leaking from weep holes would be a No Go in a purchase situation for me, but would not be a Panic Sell signal if detected later on. |
Bill Coburn
Grand Master
Username: bill_coburn
Post Number: 231
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, 24 August, 2004 - 08:20 am: | |
A further note for gef concerning the rocker cover. The Factory now turns out neoprene seals in lieu of the cork items. To compliment these are neoprene inserts for the stud retaining holes which are bonded to washers onto to which the holding down nuts screw. To stop over tightening they also supply distance pieces which are slipped over the holding down studs. The whole lot is expensive - about AUD250 but they sure fix leaking from the top end. The Factory had a lot of trouble with the covers leaking and tried a number of modifications mostly unsuccessful. A lot of owners are not aware of the gunk that builds up since it can't be seen from above. The oil leaks out very slowly and gets well and truly baked to a melange of dirt soot and oil concentrate contributing to the smell of the car which emulates a very old bottom of the gully wrecking yard! |
Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy
Post Number: 320
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, 24 August, 2004 - 08:42 am: | |
Bill,
I fitted a set of neoprene rocker seals a few months ago. They are brilliant, and did not cost the horrendous amount you mentioned.
I'll look for the invoice, but I recall being miffed at around £22 for the pair from Introcar. The cork ones are cheaper at £14 the pair (FS). |
Carlos Reis
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 81.193.154.174
| | Posted on Saturday, 05 March, 2005 - 07:40 pm: | |
Thanks !
I had the same problem on my brothers Silver Shadow and I found the answer here
Carlos
Lisbon, Portugal
(Message approved by david_gore) |
Phil Sproston
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 203.217.71.4
| | Posted on Tuesday, 08 March, 2005 - 09:44 pm: | |
Don`t forget to clean out the engine breather and check the oil filler gasket, because you want negative crankcase pressure not positive. Fix these and you stop a lot of oil leaks. I use Nulon throttle body cleaner to wash the aluminium only (on the block not the paint) and it is ideal for the engine breather gauze also. Similar products should be available overseas (try it on a small area first).
(Message approved by david_gore) |
Geoff Reeves
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 203.221.62.241
| | Posted on Sunday, 13 March, 2005 - 09:02 am: | |
I have just purchased a 1976 Silver Shadow one SRH 2349
The Vehicle has a oil leak at the rear of the engine (Wife angry, oil on garage floor is a house place health/saftey issue im told!!)
can any one tell me if I can fix the problem by removing the Gear box etc or is this a engine out situation.
Sorry this is by first R.R.
I think this is a great vehicle in exelent condition excepting is has this unacceptable house traning problem
(Message approved by david_gore) |
David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore
Post Number: 415
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, 13 March, 2005 - 07:12 pm: | |
Hi Geoff,
There are a number of potential sources for the leaking oil and these have been covered in great detail in the past - I suggest you make a couple of hours available and use the "Search" facility with key words "oil leak" to reveal all.
The most likely causes are blocked flame trap screens causing the crankcase to be pressurised forcing oil past the rear scroll seal [R-R did not use a conventional oil seal at the rear of the engine] There is a quick and easy fix which has been well documented. The second cause is either leaking rocker cover gaskets/"A-Plate" gaskets and rectification will depend on which is the cause.
My recommendation is to thoroughly clean the engine top and bottom with kerosene - spray it on liberally and allow to soak in then spray with more kerosine to flush off the oil/grease/crud that is present then hose the engine down with water [UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES USE PROPRIETARY ENGINE DEGREASING PRODUCTS - THEY ARE HIGHLY ALKALINE AND WILL CORRODE ALL THE ALUMINIUM/LIGHT METAL COMPONENTS IN THE ENGINE BAY DESTROYING THEIR FINISH].
Then take the car for a 30 minute run, allow the car to stand for an hour or two and then go looking for the tell-tale oil traces to identify where it is coming from then we can help with rectification suggestions. |
Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy
Post Number: 627
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, 13 March, 2005 - 10:25 pm: | |
Please post under the Silver Shadow and Bentley T-Series section.
As David points out, there is a lot of detail on this available on this site already.
1. In any case, clean the flame trap immediately to ensure that the crankcase is breathing properly (ie under a slight vacuum). The flame trap is more often than not forgotten and clogged up, leading to excessive leaks especially from the rear main labyrinth.
Even then, that embarrassing occasional drip cannot be avoided. This was the case when the cars were new.
2. The only real fix is to replace the rear main labyrinth by a PTFE oil seal for a Silver Spirit. You can either machine the small housing, or buy a new one as I did. This is all covered on this site, even in the last two weeks or so.
3. If the weep holes are leaking, see Bill Coburn's entry on a PVI. Only if they leak, the weep holes may safely be plugged up with silicone RTV, or better still tapped and have grubscrews fitted as Bill has done. Weep holes which don't leak should never be plugged as pressure build up may damage the coolant o-rings. |
james woo
Yet to post message
Username: james
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, 31 July, 2003 - 10:14 pm: | |
Hi everyone, I am new to this. My name is James, I am buying a 1973 Silver Shadow, a car of my dreams, my first Rolls Royce purchase. The purchase price was agreed on $16,000, the car's done 96,900 miles.
I got a pre-purchase inspection done today, the report say that there is a major oil leak from the engine, transmission, diff seal and axle diff seal, the steering box oil is also contaminated.
On top of the oil leak there's also problem with the steering play on both front wheels linkages and bushes, the front suspension top arm bump rubber is parished and both front hub play.
The aircond is also not working.
The cooling system water pump also leaks.
Does it sound like a major problem, can they be fixed, do anyone had any experience with the repair cost to the above problems, are they common in the silver shadow of this age.
Is $16,000 a reasonable price to pay for a car of this age considering the future repair bill.
Apart from the above the problem, the car is in good condition, drives well.
Any suggestion will be much appreciated.
Thankyou very much
James |
james woo
New User
Username: james
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, 31 July, 2003 - 10:28 pm: | |
after reading the post about the problem of the car that sit in the garage for 6 month, I just remember that the seller told me he only driven the car 400 mile during the 12 month he owned it, will that be a roblem, does the above problems had something to do with the car being parked in a garage most of the time?
Thanks |
David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore
Post Number: 82
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, 31 July, 2003 - 11:44 pm: | |
Hi James,
Shadows do not take kindly to being left on their own in a garage without being driven - they really thrive a regular use and should be driven at least once a week for at least an hour to keep them happy! The low mileage of the car suggests it has been inactive for a considerable period of its life and I would prepare for a period of regular maintenance as you drive the car and the consequences of its past life become apparent. If you could advise where the car will be located, we may be able to suggest local sources of help for you otherwise use this forum to get advice.
The various oil leaks may "take-up" as the car is driven and the seals soften and become more pliable from use. Of course all fluids/filters should be changed immediately to remove any chance they will contribute to future problems. The location of the engine oil leak is important - you should clean the engine with kerosine to remove the accumulated oil and grime [do not use engine cleaners - they will discolour the aluminium components] and check for the source of the leak. Once this is known, we can give you more specific advice. Changing the transmission fluid should help the transmission seals as the fluid contains additives to keep the seals pliable however if they have been left too long, they will have to be replaced. The transmission is a GM Turbo 400 and most automatic transmission shops should be able to do this work for you. Same situation will apply to the rear drive unit, changing the oil and driving the car may rectify the problem; if not the seals will have to be replaced by someone who is familiar with Shadows or has access to a workshop manual as some special precautions apply. The power steering fluid leak will also be due to lack of use - it is a GM system as well and most power steering specialists should be capable of rectifying the leak.
The air conditioning problem will most likely be loss of refrigerant due to lack of use - the system has a low-pressure shutdown to prevent damage in this situation. I would get an air-conditioning specialist to overhaul the system and change the refrigerant to R134A when finances permit. The A/C is also largely standard GM components.
The suspension problems require inspection by a R-R specialist to determine the cause of the reported problems. Ordinary suspension specialists do not have the specialist knowledge required to check the components and rectify any problems.
It is most important that you use the warning light/overheating buzzer test function on a regular basis as you will have to drive your car with one eye on the warning lights so you can stop the car immediately if a problem becomes evident. If the overheating buzzer comes on, you must stop the car immediately no matter where you are and check why the car is overheating. If you continue to drive the car, you are likely to cause very expensive engine damage. If one or both of the brake warning lights come on, separate the car from other traffic as soon as possible and pull-over to a safe place allowing as much distance as possible to stop. If you belong to a motoring organisation that provides roadside service, seek their assistance as the back-up braking circuit only works on the rear brakes and provides limited stopping capacity if the two main braking systems stop functioning. It is highly probable you will also experience problems of brake lock-on due to old flexible hoses [these should be replaced every 4 years as a scheduled maintenance item]. You also need to do a pump-down test of the brake accumulators [details are in other posts on this forum; using the search function for "accumulator" should track these down]. Less than 30 pumps of the brake pedal indicate the accumulators require recharging, less than 10 pumps indicate the accumulators require overhauling and diaphragm replacement.
Above all, drive the car regularly on trips close to home until the early problems settle down and then consider longer trips. I would be cautious about being caught with a problem where you do not have access to assistance and alternative transport in the first 3-6 months of ownership. This may seem a lot of "doom & gloom" however this is a worst-case scenario where the car has been severely neglected; once you sort out the early problems, the car will settle down and give great satisfaction with regular driving and scheduled maintenance.
(Message edited by david_gore on July 31, 2003) |
Richard Treacy
Prolific User
Username: richard_treacy
Post Number: 41
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, 01 August, 2003 - 12:28 am: | |
David, I think you are being a bit optimistic unless the report is unnecessarily gloomy. Oil leaks rarely clear up with use, and a leaky water pump is almost always terminal in these cars. Usually water pumps fail catastrophically as ours did once on the '72 T-Series. I replace mine every five years or so as a precaution.
Provided the oil is not leaking from the cylinder liners, which would require a prohibative motor rebuild, you could easily spend $10,000 on rectification. There are lots of really good Shadows out there, so I would shop around a bit longer.
As a guide, I spent over $20,000 on my mechanically-similar Turbo R in the first six months, when it was just 10 years old, to get it right, and it had none of the symtoms of this Silver Shadow. It checked out 100% and was fully roadworthy when I bought it. As I say $10,000 goes nowhere ro solving all the problems if the car is run down.
Spares costs alone are roughly:
Steering linkages 4x$300, steering box $1,000 exchange, water pump $600 exchange, rebuilt transmission maybe $2,500 exchange, accumulators 2x$400 and so on even before you discover what you don't already know. And then there's the labour unless you DIY. Count on at least the same labour charges as the spares costs.
If James can be more specific, we can give the scheduled manhour requirements for the jobs.
I don't wish to discourage anyone from taking on a project car, but especially new owners need the facts. Those of us who have owned our cars for many years know what to expect. Too often a newcomer buys a Rolls-Royce and has many expensive problems. The car is then sold a year later, and the owner has a disgust for the Marque forever more. This almost happened to my father with an R-Type in the 1960s. After spending great wads of cash he gave up until I begged him to let me rebuild the motor. We still have that car today. The previous owner sold it after only a year for the reasons I hint at above. When my father bought the T-Series he was far more careful and it is still a wonderful, and leak free, car 20 years later. |
David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore
Post Number: 83
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, 01 August, 2003 - 12:59 am: | |
Thanks Richard,
Given the information in the post, I was trying to "walk on the edge of a razor blade without being cut". I didn't want to be too pessimistic and perpetuate the myth that Shadows are "money pits" because we know this is not always the case and James might be lucky to get one that "recovers" without too many problems and then again he might get a car that is only good for spare parts! It all depends on how much R-R/B experience the assessor who looked at the car for him had. I also didn't want to cause too much distress if he has already signed-off on the car purchase.
My own experience with DRH14434 does give some cause for optimism, when it first hit the road after nearly 10 years of inactivity; it did have some oil/water leaks but fresh oil/coolant and daily driving saw these diminish to nothing and they car has been on the road consistently for the past 10 years without further problems. My major problems were with the hydraulics due to the use of GTLMA brake fluid and the auto transmission when the oil cooler connecting hose blew due to old-age, dumped the oil and the drive clutches seized when I deliberately locked the box into first gear to get the car home and up the hill into the garage so I could work on it!
I just hope this isn't one of the dreaded HK cars that turn up on a regular basis. |
james woo
New User
Username: james
Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, 01 August, 2003 - 07:58 am: | |
Thanks David and Richard very very much for you detail comments, it is very much appreciated. I will do more investigation before I make the decosion to buy.
Thanks a lot gentlemens
Best Regards
James |
james woo
Experienced User
Username: james
Post Number: 8
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, 01 August, 2003 - 12:26 pm: | |
Hi David
Thanks for kindly warning me about imports from Hong Kong, why HK cars are no good? I thought they loves Rolls in Hong Kong as I have learned that Hong Kong's got the most Rolls Royces in the world per capita.
Thanks again.
Regards
James
|
David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore
Post Number: 86
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, 01 August, 2003 - 01:19 pm: | |
James,
Driving/Climatic conditions in HK significantly affect vehicle life, trips are short so cars do not warm up properly and wear rates increase. Chauffeur-driven cars are often left idling for long periods of time with air-conditioning left on for driver's comfort whilst waiting for clients so engine hours of operation are much greater than car mileage indicates. Rain, heat and humidity means extensive rust of body sections is prevalent. Maintenance services in HK are reportedly not as good as other countries.
Many "opportunists" have seen the low prices of used R-R cars in HK due to these problems and imported cars then realised what they were facing in repair bills and many have ended up at auctions hoping to catch an unsuspecting buyer. The best Shadow purchase is from a R-R/B Club member where the history of the car is known and maintenance is more likely have to been done in accordance with factory recommendations. I would expect a good Shadow I to cost around $30,000 and a good Shadow II around $40,000. Corniches will cost much more depending on whether they are convertibles/hardtops. In both cases, a thorough inspection by a recognised R-R Shadow specialist is good insurance before purchase and the cost of this inspection will be covered many times over by subsequent savings in repair costs. Our previous Shadow Registrar had a favourite saying "every extra dollar you pay to purchase the car will save you at least two dollars in repair costs". This does not apply if you are a competent do-it-yourself home mechanic who can do most of the labour and only pay for parts and occasional professional assistance when necessary. |
Jon Rothwell
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 61.9.128.174
| | Posted on Saturday, 02 August, 2003 - 10:53 am: | |
James,
I was where you are about 3 years ago, having decided to buy a Rolls Royce but not having any in depth knowledge about them.
I bought a cheap 1966 Bentley T1 first and it was a steep learning curve but enjoyable.
I got a 1975 Shadow recently.
Both my cars are Hong Kong imports I think, and were probabbly sold and used in England before being shipped to HK. Rust is very much an issue, as are corroded wiring connections, non standard parts and bodgy body repairs.
In my case I rebuild cars for fun so I went out of my way to buy cheap cars needing some work. Having said that I bought my Shadow knowing that the body needed work, but also that many previous owners had spent a fortune trying to bring the neglected mechanicals back up to standard.
The amount of money spent on my Shadow by previous owners is stunning and I am told is probably well over $50,000 in the last 6 or 7 years just on repairs. Apparently it also had several owners over this period.
Needless to say I don't drive my cars much, as I spend most weekends working on them.
Have a look at them at: http://www.nw-limo.com to get an idea of what I mean.
|
james woo
Experienced User
Username: james
Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, 06 August, 2003 - 01:38 pm: | |
Thanks Jon:
I had a look at your website, love your cars, I would of love to buy one like yours, with the two-tone color body, the one with different color roof to the body color, the one I brought is a single color in metallic blue, but I am not complaining, I am grateful that I got a rolls at all.
I can see you have done some good works on your car. You are lucky you had the skills to rebuild these cars, as for me I don't know much apart from driving them. I am still learning.
I don't drive my rolls much either, mainly because of the fuel cost, certainly not to taking it out during peak traffic hours, it's more like a treat for me from time to time, I like to take it out on a weekend for a long drive in quiet country road, try to avoid all the traffic, this keep the car happy too.
Regards
James |
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