| Author | Message | |||
     Nigel A Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58-84-115-30.dial-lns4.qld.chariot.net.au |
Hi Everyone, my 74 Shadow (SRH18294)rejuvenation is progressing at great expense but equally great pleasure, but with the latest hike in the fuel price and the incentive offerred to convert to LPG I was just wondering what the pros and cons were. Can anyone help? (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Jon Rothwell Frequent User Username: jon_rothwell Post Number: 38 Registered: 4-2004 |
I've had several LPG vehicles. They have included a 5 ton Bedford courier truck which was my working vehicle, was driven huge miles and was LPG only, a V8 F100 ambulance, and a XF Falcon ex Taxi which had 800,000 K's on a very clean origional engine. Personally I would prefer LPG to petrol any day in a properly set up and tuned vehicle. The major disadvantage being the size of the tank in a sedan boot. I'm looking at an LPG only conversion for our Spirit, that way we can remove the petrol tank and filler and replace them with LPG fittings so keeping the car looking standard and not losing too much boot space. I am looking at a twin converter and throttle body setup to improve power. I am not looking at doing this because of the price of petrol though, mainly I'm worried about the future avaiablity of high octane ethanol free fuel. The fuel we get now is bad enough, and I see LPG as a way of hedging against poor fuels and possibly tighter emission standards, if our government heads that way in the future. | |||
| Nigel A Ralph Unregistered guest Posted From: 58-84-115-150.dial-lns4.qld.chariot.net.au |
Thanks Jon, your message raises a few questions. Firstly the message at the petrol filler cap on the car says 100 octane rating but no such fuel is available at a general petrol station. 97 octane is the best I have been able to find. What is the octane rating of LPG? I did make enquiries about a conversion up here but was advised that there would be at least a 9mth wait!! Sounds like a great opportunity for those with the connections to get some gear out of China and make a huge profit. Jon's experience with LPG has been replicated so why haven't we converted en masse previously? Is there a hidden problem or is it that Rolls owners can afford to pay anything. I certainly can't. I love the smoothness and quietness of the ride and am prepared to pay a reasonable premium for it (as well as receiving the looks and stairs, and the occasional abuse), but being ripped off goes against my grain. Does LPG run cleaner than petrol? With a 74 Shadow I regularly have to change the plugs as they do get very dirty. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 603 Registered: 9-2004 |
Will get a few pictures and the small prob that i have experienced twice since running on LPG over the years with the petrol start up. This prob i will carry out today as the postman has just delivered the parts and we are all on a run to-morrow with the car hopefully. Ps i think i have put pictures etc on the instalation on this site! | |||
| Jon Rothwell Frequent User Username: jon_rothwell Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2004 |
As far as I have been able to find out LPG is better than 100 octane (can anyone give me some more details on this?). My experience with iron head engines has been very positive in the past but I believe that hardened valve seats need to be fitted these days to iron heads as no leaded petrol is around, this is not a problem on Shadows or Spirits as far as I know. I have always started on LPG without any problems, and in all my vehicles only used petrol as a last resort (my truck was LPG only anyway). In all cases the engines were in good condition after huge miles and the oil was almost perfect at each oil change, I have always been stunned at just how clean an LPG fuelled engine runs. I have seen some really great LPG performance conversions too, such as Cleveland 351 V8 XD Falcons developing 500+ horsepower on straight LPG with twin throttle bodies. At the end of the day if you want all the info on LPG just ask taxi drivers, you would be hard pushed to find a taxi not running LPG and they have pretty much the most severe operating conditions of any passenger vehicle. | |||
| Peter Colwell Experienced User Username: peter_colwell Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2005 |
Actually from an engine-life point of view, taxis operate under almost perfect conditions, because they are hot all the time, and so do not suffer from the biggest engine killer of all; ie. corrosion from moisture. I have not done the sums but would think that any car would have to do quite a few miles annually to justify the cost of conversion. Peter | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 604 Registered: 9-2004 |
Bob will fill us in on the technics no doubt. It is my experience that running ul in the cast iron valve seats is not a problem provided that the exhaust valve clearance is set on the wide side. more time closed more cooling to the valve seats! Back to the alloy heads,these will run ok with the lpg, i prefer to use the start up and stop with a mix of oil and petrol for the lubrication of the valve guides. The petrol tank is kept half full for the extra long journeys if needed. Well back to my prob and i wonder if it a common occurance with lpg running as i do. This is the second carb float failure that has occured. Could it be the latent heat and switching to cold petrol after use of the hot engine. The float chamber must be really hot sat on top of the engine, maybe the cold petrol on the hot plastic float makes it contract so quick that after a time the two halves of the seam weld lets go letting the float fill with petrol over time, anyway not a hard job to do as i have just completed the job, pictures of how to it while my memory is fresh. Pic 1 of the carb assembly removed.  Pic 2 side screw locating float.  Pic 3 petroleum grease for locating seal in float chamber cover.  Pic 4 ready to fit up all conections.note centre long bolt for holding carb assembly. The secrete for the push on fuel units to the carbs with the two "o" rings is to use silicone, they will just slide on without any breakage that has been known to happen.  Pic 5 remember the two vac hoses under the intake alloy housing SS2.  Pic 6 job done  As for going LPG best thing here in the uk for the time being as it is low on tax with all the other benifits stated above. Bob the increase in octane,the increase in running ignition timming,slight loss on mpg,the advantage of the lamda system etc please fill us in with your excellant write ups. | |||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 317 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi all, Now that our government is seriously considering subsidising the fitment of LPG, I will seriously think about converting the Spur to it and run it only on LPG. For the past 10 years I have ran my old banger Ford exclusively on it. The fuel pump perished ages ago through lack of use and I have no intention of ever running it on petrol again. The octane rating of LPG is around 110 so it is more than sufficient for our needs but our cars will run quite readily and without harm on 95 octane fuel (maybe a little tuning might be in order though). I’ve heard so many stories (mainly from car manufacturers), about Valve Seat Recession with exclusive use of LPG but I have yet to meet anyone who has actually experienced it. I am now beginning to believe that VSR is an urban myth. With all the kilometres I’ve travelled in the old Ford (about 250,000 of them), it still hasn’t happened. LPG is a lot cleaner than petrol and it is also a lot kinder on your engine. It will definitely last longer on LPG. I wouldn’t bother starting on petrol. It actually starts easier on LPG. If I do decide to convert my Spur, it will be a total conversion as I don’t want the gas tank to take up any room in the boot and I wouldn’t use petrol anymore anyway. I’ll just get the petrol tank removed completely and have the gas tank take its place and have my fuel gauge connected to it so I don’t have to have another fitted. Pity about the long wait Nigel.Oh and one more thing.There is no appreciable in performance either and I doubt if you would notice it. One of the reasons I suspect is that, in Australia at least, a fitter has to be specially licenced to fit them and has to undergo stringent training and testing. Aussie drivers are sticklers for performance and, petrol prices or not, wouldn't go for LPG if their cars were less powerful. | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 605 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hi Robert,the idea of starting and stopping on a petrol oil mix was to get some oil lube into the top end of the motor. Lpg runs very dry compared to petrol! So i believe that it saves having auto oilers added to the inlet manifolds for the valve guides etc! Bob what do the boats have with the running of LPG. | |||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 318 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Pat, you are probably right but I haven't found it necessary on the Ford. Once you switch over to gas, it would essentially wash away any oil deposits that were made when it started on petrol, I would assume, and would therefore negate the upper cylinder lubrication made in the first instance. Of course, once the engine is up and running, there will be enough oil sloshing around to take care of that. There are kits around that inject lubricant into the manifold automatically and they have been designed for LPG conversions. I haven't used them and I'm not sure of their efficacy. I'm sure an LPG fitter would be fully briefed in this area. How's the 20/25 going? | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1061 Registered: 4-2003 |
By way of explanation to the LPG topic, may I clarify a little on the background in Australia as I see it ? LPG vehicle conversions are in no way a backyard industry downunder. They are positively mainstream in Australia. You will barely find any taxi not factory equipped with LPG since 1980 or even earlier, and likewise most major fleets are so outfitted. These vehicles have no special lubrication and are million-kilometre propositions. As Robert points out, valve seat recession has been shown to me a myth with ULP and LPG alike. Furthermore, there is none of the European-style nonsense about banning LPG vehicles from tunnels. Heavens. How could they ban busses and taxis from Sydney’s growing labyrinth of underground tunnels ? LPG demand is reaching a crescendo downunder. The Australian Government has recently taken the unprecedented, and may I say applaudibly generous, step of offering a rebate: $2,000 for conversions and $1,000 for new vehicles equipped exclusively for LPG. The standards are well defined, and safety is far ahead of petrol systems as a result. Almost every fuel station offers LPG for motor vehicles nationwide, and the supply chain infrastructure makes the European camping gas supply equivalent look to be the joke that it is. Robert’s problem is only this: there is a huge waiting list for LPG conversions. In some cases it runs into years. I believe that any debate on the downsides of LPG is dead. Maybe the outback petrol sniffers will be disappointed, but they are being forced to use unsniffabe petrol in any case to relieve the health system of this stupid addiction. The only question is how soon can the conversion be done. | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 606 Registered: 9-2004 |
Prime Minister John Howard has denied suggestions his plan to subsidise motorists converting to gas power is discriminatory. Talkback radio host John Laws said today subsidising conversions by $2,000 was discriminatory because people with older, cheaper cars would not see the point in paying the difference of the conversion cost, while those with expensive cars would do it. Mr Howard said: "There's no easy solution to this problem and I don't hold out the LPG subsidy as being a silver bullet, as being the answer to high petrol prices." The prime minister's comments to Southern Cross Broadcasting come a day after he unveiled the government's response to soaring oil prices, which have pushed petrol prices to near-record highs in the past week. At its centre are tax-free grants of $2,000 to motorists who convert their vehicles to LPG, and $1,000 grants for people who buy new vehicles already fitted out for liquid gas. While Mr Howard said the grants were not the complete solution for people feeling pain at the pump, he said it was offering some relief. "It's doing something at the margins to help, I suspect, a reasonably large number of people. "The best way of helping people in relation to high petrol prices, generally, is to put more money in their pockets through things like tax cuts," Mr Howard said. The last federal budget offered across-the-board tax cuts. But Mr Howard again talked down suggestions the government should cut the petrol excise. "I'm not representing to the community that what I announced yesterday is an answer to high petrol prices ... there is no cure-all answer to high petrol prices, absent a fall in the price of crude oil." -------------------------------------------------- So what will be the price of Lpg in relation to the petrol price in Au. Just a subsity for lpg conversion in its self is not a goodenough reason maybe. Factory lpg built vehicles in the uk have special valve guides etc for the running of dry lpg and the tax advantages + more as we know. My Shaddow 2 to-day running lpg was faultless as are many others but the float issue may enforce the fitment of mixers more in time on this interesting subject! Richard have you gone clean and coverted your Turbo "R". Intresting one to do no doubt! (Message edited by pat lockyer on August 21, 2006) | |||
| BOB UK Unregistered guest Posted From: brig-cache-4.server.ntli.net |
I had a problem with cold starts on my Shadow on LPG which was solved by: opening the idle one turn and increasing the prime time from 4 seconds to 8 seconds and wiring the choke up so that it can never fully close. It starts on 1/2 choke then the exhasut gases warn up the bimetallic spring and the choke goes fully off. An alternative to removing the petrol tank is to fit say a five gallon jobby some where. The Spirit I believe holds 23 gallon ypu will not fit a 23 gallon LPG tank in the same volume of room because the LPG tank has to be round for strengh. I have a 90 litre tank which holds 72 litres --- must have ullage with LPG tanks they must noot be maxed out because expansion would cause a pressure build up and a gas escape via the pressure rerlease valve. This gives me a range of about 150 miles before I have to find fuel. I still have the 23 gallon tank fitted so if the worse comes to the worse I can still run petrol. The best sytem for a carb car is a single vaporiser and a y piece feeding both banks via a coup[le of 5/8 bore pipes connected to the inlet horns close to the carbytoots. Mine actually poke into the carb mouths. Also I have a servo of the gas pipe to the carbs which is controlled via a Lambda sensor fitted before the first exhaust box. It has a small ecu that learns as you drive. Also to make sure that the gas supply receives a good vacuum signal from both banks the gasket shown in Pic 1 of Pat posting has a slot cut in it ( where the centre bolt goes ) so that on idle both throttles are not quite independant. Before this I had a bit of a lumpy idle. The car does 11 mpg on LPG and 15 mpg on a run on LPG My LPG tank does halve the boot size. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| bob Unregistered guest Posted From: brig-cache-4.server.ntli.net |
LPG in boats. Someone mentioned Bob and lpg and boats and UCL. Where I work we do not convert or work on the lpg bit of any boat. And after we have worked on a LPG boat we get a LPG engineer to check and sign that the system is safe. Which the customer has to pay for if the customer refuses this then we do not work on the boat or allow it on our premises. Every customer agrees and we have never found anything that would concern us, and the customers are very pleased to have a certificate of safety. This is because LPG is heavier than air and boat hulls are air tight any leaks end up in the bilges awaiting an explosion. WE always fit temporary gas sniffers to the boat which sound off if a leak occurs. Cars are much safer because any leaks go harmlessly to atmosphere because they escape under the car. None of the boat engines that I have seen have flash lub or anyother UCL device fitted and none of the owners have report any problems apart from ignition problems and the reverse is true we get a lot of petrol engines that are a bit blue smokey. When I lift the heads I usually find valves with so much carbon on then that they look like black lollipops whereas LPG heads are so clean that you would think that the engine was still relatively new, and the engine oil stays clean. The ignitions problems are caused by owners assuming that because petrol boats ran ok with plug leads held together with chewing gum that LPG will be OK as well, once we have educated them every thing is OK. The Chevy small block V8 responds very well to LPG and is my favourite LPG boat engine. Never get problems and the lump just keeps going producing approx 150 bhp at 3500 rpm. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: brig-cache-4.server.ntli.net |
I was in a hurry when I wrote the last post so here are the bits I missed. Because I have the petrol tank still in place the filler for the LPG is on a bracket below the rear bumper. I had to cut a hole in the panel behind the bumper for the pipe but this is easy to weld up in the advent of the car being returned to standard. Much easer than welding in the middle of the rear wing should the filler have been put there. There is room for the filler under the flap if the outer plastic filler guide is omitted. The car is down on power but it is a 6750cc engine with plenty of reserve power. The car easily runs at 80 plus which is good enough for the UK which has a 70 mph limit most of driving is in 30,40 and 60 limits any way. soon the roads where I live will be 20 mph limit. So I will be in second gear. I never bother with petrol at all so to put the low fuel light out I pulled the wire off the tank sender. Once a week or every 200 miles I squirt a bit of engine oil into the breather next to the choke housing to lub the valves etc. I not entirely sure this is neccesary because the lub properies of petrol are not good. I have thought about this very carefully I think that valve seals allow a small amount of oil past that lubs the valve stems, even new seals. The oil also lubs the seal itself. RR Motors used to test engines on LPG not petrol mine being 1974 would have been tested on LPG when the engine was made---- same year as your car ( not a spirit mistake earlier ) Mine is SRH 17768. The HM Queen's Royal cars are all LPG. Evidently she got up one morning to find the lastest fuel bill and said to Phil we must get our jam jars converted to that LPG stuff think of the readies we will save. They were converted by Bentley in Crewe. Costs. The kit was £650 and the servo motor and Lambda kits was £130. Plus £20 for nuts and bolts etc. ( 2004 ) plus 16 hours work. It took me 5 days because I am a lazy so and so and I kept watching films on the telly. If you want more details of the actual how I did it diy just ask. NOTE. My insurures allowed me to convert because I was using NEW parts only. You must check with your insurers before proceding because some insurers require the conv. to be performed by a registered converter only who charge around £1500 for the same job. One of the myths surrounding LPG is that in the advent of a rear ender the tank will explode it will not because it is 6mm thick where as petrol tanks are 1mm thick and can be punctured with a screw driver and an 'ammer. Also if a pipe breaks (why it would I do not know ) large amounts of gas will escape and you will be burnt alive. This cannot happen because the valve in the tank will not allow such a large escape and the ball will forced up a ramp to shut of the gas entirely. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 319 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Bob, You mentioned earlier in the thread that LPG tanks can't fit in where the old petrol tank was situated. There are new square gas tanks in Australia that are designed to do just that. Just for everyone's interest, I thought I would attach in PDF Format, the Australian Standards for the fitting and servicing of LPG systems.
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| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 607 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hi Robert,the shadow tank is not round or square it has a shape all of its own. Dougnut tanks are common in place of the spare wheel but for a rolls the small range would be hopeless. Lucky the boot is so large so it takes the 90litre tank with room to spare. Pic of the tank cover with the room left.  | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1063 Registered: 4-2003 |
To answer Pat's question, I cannot convert my Turbo R to LPG for obvious reasons. If I did, I would be banned from most roads and all tunnels in Europe. As most highways here have tunnels, it would be pointless. Besides, where could I refuel ? Barbeques Galore ? Note that the Queen's Phantom VI was petrol fired at least in 1994. Otherwise she would have been banned from her grand exit from the Eurotunnel at Folkestone on the gala opening day. Remember that day ? Mitterand was in the ex-De Gaulle Citroen, which broke down on the exit ramp and was discretely towed away by the Dover Fire Brigade. | |||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: brig-cache-4.server.ntli.net |
Square LPG tanks now that could work in place of the square petrol tank with cut out for spare wheel. The tank must have stays inside like a steam loco boiler which works at about 150 psi ( BR std ) I do like Pats set up the boot looks very good much better than my exposed tank. The flap covers the LPG tanks valve I guess. If RR had fitted the tank I suspect that they would have done the same and to the same standard (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 320 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Bob, Pat, Richard, I was mainly thinking of my Spur where the paetrol tank is located behind the back seat. There would be no problems there but Pat is right about the fitment as far as a Shadow is concerned. I belive there is a tank that does have a recess for a spare but I'm mot sure if t would work for a Shadow. All tanks, irrespective of shape still has to conform to rigorous standards. | |||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 723 Registered: 4-2003 |
Ah Bob I disagree with your compliment to the old Factory. If RR had done the job the flap would have been in three beautiful pieces each supported by special brackets that required four special tools and 15 minutes work every time you wanted to fill it. Saw a beautiful report of a conversation between Hives and a supplier who pointed out to H that the widget he was supplying to the Factory was designed to be very accessable for maintenance. ' Don’t you worry about it' responded H 'our designers will quickly correct that!!' I quite believe it. The skill to adjust the juxtaposition of components so that you often have no hope of getting a spanner onto a nut simply confounds me! Yet we luv 'em! It is this situation which is at the back of my dying quest for owners to get off their arse and learn how to fix things because shortly if not now there will be few that can fix them and even less that will want to! | |||
| bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: brig-cache-4.server.ntli.net |
I have developed a knack of squashing my hand by dislocating my wrist to get into tight spots I have also developed heat proof hands. I reckon it you turned a RR upside down and gave it good shake lots of "spare" nuts and bolts would fall out. Maybe enough to make a Ford. I tend to take large lumps off cars and get them on the bench where I can work in comfort. (Message approved by david_gore) |
