| Author | Message | ||
     Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 743 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hi, Chaps, I need you all! Recently I discovered fuel leaking from the float cover of Her A-bank carb so I ordered a pair with O-rings from Burlen UK and installed same. Due to general busyness I am just getting around to trying Her out and... no crank. Everything powered up normally when I reconnected the battery earth in the boot yet when I turn the key to the crank position, not even a click. Is it possible I dislodged a wire when removing the air horn-carb assembly? | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1767 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Randy The answer to that is yes. The starter relay is on the bulkhead, close to the accelerator linkage. If you have dislodged a wire running to it you will get the symptoms you describe. Of course there are many other possibilities, but this is a good place to start. Total silence is an indicator of a starter relay problem. If you could get an assistant to turn the key you could try listening very closely from under the hood to see if you can hear the relay click. Geoff | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 745 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thanks, Geoff, there is no relay click for certain. And there is a wire with a spade connector that is standing alone. | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 746 Registered: 5-2009 |
Upon further review, the detached wire I found is not long enough to begin to reach the one terminal I found on what I think are the start and choke relays. These are a pair mounted on a bracket through which the throttle rod passes vertically to its attachment at the angle arm. The rearmost has a white wire with a red tracer; the foremost has one plug with two white wires with red tracers; and at least two brown wires. There is one spade on the foremost relay which does not appear to have ever had anything attached. I tried tapping on the dash top roll with the key held to "start"; moving the gear selector lever whilst holding the key to "start", and tapping the relays. Nothing. Additionally I tested the white w/red wire in the rear relay with the ignition switch in the "start" position. No voltage registered. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2393 Registered: 6-2009 |
Randy, I don't know if the following will be any help, but:  I can check against either SRH33576 or LRK37110 if there are specific relays that you want to know how the wiring is connected if you can post or send photos of the ones in question so that I have "the lay of the land" where they're located. Brian | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 747 Registered: 5-2009 |
Pic of the two I have ID as the start and choke relays.  Top of the pic is toward the Car's rear. | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 518 Registered: 11-2015 |
Randy, Based on the pictures it is obvious that your car is upside down. | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 519 Registered: 11-2015 |
Randy, Seriously though, are your relays on the same side of the car as the steering wheel? (can you try starting it while touching the relays) | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 520 Registered: 11-2015 |
Randy, looks like the lucas relays are marked. w1 w2 c1 c2 c3  W1 and W1 are the coil c2 is the common lead c1 is the normally open contact (closed to c2 when the coil is energized) optionally c3 is the normally closed contact (opened to c2 when the coil is energized.)  | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 521 Registered: 11-2015 |
So, If you could get a test light to pin w1 or w1 you should be able to tell if the coil is receiving power with the key in the crank position. That would tell you if it is the relay / starter solenoid wire or in the chassis harness. You could also (with the car in neutral) unplug pins w1 and w2 and put power and ground to those pins which should crank the motor (if indeed the relay is working) | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 748 Registered: 5-2009 |
The forward relay ( the lower in my photo) is the one Brian's photo indicates is the starter relay. It has 6 spade connectors: two at the top, white with yellow tracer on the left spade and brown with a blue tracer on the right spade. A horizontal spade in the center, with a solid brown wire, somewhat heavier gauge; below it, a vertical spade with no connecting wire; below it two horizontal, the left having twin white wires with red tracer, and the right spade having a solid black wire. I connected a meter to each female spade connector (i.e. the wire) and only the solid brown wire showed any Voltage and it was hot all the time, key off, on or crank position. Interestingly, when I held the key in Crank, the voltage on this wire dropped about 1/10 Volt, from 12.24 V. Bad relay? | ||
| Martin Taylor Frequent User Username: martin_taylor Post Number: 81 Registered: 7-2013 |
Are you sure you haven't knocked the gear selector since you started? Simple circuit, fuse, ign switch, isolating contacts on steering column switches and gear change actuators then relay, follow from point to point and test. | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 749 Registered: 5-2009 |
wiggled the gear selector whilst holding the key in "Start", several times. I will begin a more systematic testing procedure tomorrow afternoon and report any results. | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 522 Registered: 11-2015 |
Randy, The center brown pin being +12v all the time is correct, so that's good. I'm taking a look at the wiring diagram right now, I'll get back in a few. | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 523 Registered: 11-2015 |
Randy, What year was your car? | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 750 Registered: 5-2009 |
1977 WraithII USA delivered | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 524 Registered: 11-2015 |
Randy, I just saw your car in your profile, 1970 SRH 9xxx+ car. Looks like the w/r and the black are the relay's coil connections. The brown in the middle is the common The w/y and br/bl go to the starter and the coil though I don't know which is which. ============================================= For diagnosing, unplug the w/r wire from the relay. Clip your test light to a good ground (check it against the middle br wire to be sure) and put the probe onto the w/r lead. Try and crank the engine. It should light. No light at the starter relay coil input on crank = problem under the dash (wire to the coil, bulkhead connector, ignition switch, neutral safety switch or a fuse) | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 751 Registered: 5-2009 |
Please look at the thread title again. Car at issue is the 1977 Wraith II LRF30305 not the 1970 Shadow SRH9391. Sorry to be unclear. | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 752 Registered: 5-2009 |
Already checked the w/r double wire: no voltage on start command from the key switch. Going to look at the neutral safety switch when I can get underneath. | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 753 Registered: 5-2009 |
AHA! In studying the Service Manual, I ran across the fact that the appropriate fuse also powers the weakener circuit and choke. As I had these items unplugged from the harness (and apparently forgot to disconnect the battery before so doing) this was the obvious place to start. Well, #2 Fuse was indeed blown. Now for an automobile trip in search of a short fuse rated 10 Ampere. There is another possibility: if I have somehow reconnected something wrong and the fuse blew when I reconnected the battery. Thanks so much for everyone's input: it is so supportive and motivating! | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 754 Registered: 5-2009 |
Update: replacing #2 fuse did it: engine started right up and idled well enough. I checked underneath the bonnet with a lamp, no signs of trouble, so I backed the Model t out of the way and went back for the Wraith: EGAD! A pool of gasoline formed on the driver's side front corner and was growing! Stopped the engine, disconnected the battery, and turned off power to the garage. I tried to roll the car out but it seems the handbrake or service brakes are stuck on (it is in neutral). Fortunate I did not burn the entire Car barn and its 5 residents to the ground. As we have said before on this Forum, what now? | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1770 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Randy When you have made your car barn safe, a pic of it and the five residents would be really interesting. Geoff | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 755 Registered: 5-2009 |
Update #2: released the brakes by opening the upper bleed port on each rear caliper. There was no pressure on the lower ports. | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 529 Registered: 11-2015 |
Randy, Was the fuel coming out of a float bowl? I'm going to guess on the cars, shadow, wraith, model-T, Hindustan Ambasador, and Renault Dauphine RS. Now if you don't take a picture people will be left with that image. Although, if that were true, you would be the only person alive who could stage a Ambassador vs Dauphine drag race. A race where irrespective of which car crossed the line first, there would be no winners. | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 756 Registered: 5-2009 |
Got the Wraith out of the barn and on the drive: gas was pouring from front bottom of the engine atea. I found a rubber hose from the weakener system up top B side of engine, and it seemed to have become detached from device which appeared to be some sort of valve with a drain. Put the hose on and no more gas flow. Brakes reapplied themselves while this was happening, so there She sits for now. Photos of Car Barn and residents: | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 757 Registered: 5-2009 |
Do not want a Dauphin, but would like a Panhard Dyna Z and a Traction Avant. And maybe a Facel Vega... Pics are on my Iphone and I will have to resize them in order to post. | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 758 Registered: 5-2009 |
1927 Pierce-Arrow; 1970 Shadow; 1926 Model T; 1951 Buick | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 530 Registered: 11-2015 |
Randy, Much better list of autos! Get one of these for the T ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNijql5V7s4 | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 759 Registered: 5-2009 |
Now to see why the brakes are locking... | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2395 Registered: 6-2009 |
Randy, If the hose you had fuel pouring from is the one I've highlighted, and it was disconnected from the valve at the base, you still have issues with a carb or both carbs you need to address.  If the float bowls overflow this is where the fuel goes and, once there's enough of it, the valve opens to allow it to dump. Lather, rinse, repeat. Brian | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2396 Registered: 6-2009 |
By the way, the following may be helpful with regard to the starter relay:  Brian | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 760 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thanks, Brian. I got the starter working: Fuse #2, a 10 Ampere shorty, was blown, probably because I began to remove the carb assembly before I disconnected the battery. As for the gasoline flowing: you are right, that is exactly the hose and valve in question. I found the lower end of the hose pulled off the valve and gushing gas. I tapped on each carb and it seems that there was no further flow during about 5 minutes of idling, so maybe a float was stuck, allowing one carb to overflow. The only work I did was replace the float bowl (bottom) covers and associated square-section O-rings. Now for the brakes... | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 534 Registered: 11-2015 |
Randy, II or HK500? For me it would be the HK500. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1495 Registered: 9-2004 |
Brain V lets not forget the two primary fuel units with "o" rings etc.  The float chamber gaskets also dry out over time causing incorrect depression that in itself cause the weakening unit to go into a fuel spilling mode! This the SU Hif7 carb set up. Can you give give more specifics on this. | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 764 Registered: 5-2009 |
HK500 | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2401 Registered: 6-2009 |
Patrick, Not that one couldn't get fuel leaks from the covers on the carb fuel filters, but it would not be spilling out of the indicated pipe. They're entirely upstream of that particular area and nothing coming from them would end up spilling out there. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1498 Registered: 9-2004 |
Brian the ETC was because both the filter units had petrol coming below them on the carb delivery pipes running down both sides of the rear of the engine. Next day looking for the leak there was none. So IMO the "o" ring gasket in the float on both carbs was upsetting the depression. left over night all was ok with a good run. Maybe something simple as float needles sticking but both at the same time takes some believing. | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 536 Registered: 11-2015 |
Randy, My father had an HK 500 and of all the various hoopties he owned I wish that car was still around. They are getting pretty tough to find and good ones are very pricey. | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 543 Registered: 11-2015 |
Randy, Was watching the 1960 Monaco rally on youtube and saw a Dyna-Z https://youtu.be/3Ov5brH94H4?t=802. Wonder how it did? |
