Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Post Number: 590
|Posted on Wednesday, 21 September, 2016 - 01:49 pm: |
Jetsetters,Soviet Proletariat, and Bentley Riff Raff. Having armed myself with a brutal cylinder liner puller from Utah Kelly I am about to buy a micrometer set 0 to 6 inches.
Camargues were designed using metric but apart from the Solex 4BBL the engines were Shadows (scandal and shame) plus somebody had ground the engine number from the block. Yes could be stolen of more likely a hideous attempt to deck the block. No way to tell if its really an original Camargue block so as it left the factory in 1976 I figure just measure it up as a Shadow Imperial Block with Imperial micrometer.
Hmm should I go crazy and just melt the block to cylinder studs out with alum? Quite difficult to blue the top of the block with studs in looking like a deranged porcupine. Kelly can knock up some stainless studs but are not the studs held in by helicoils?
Robert Noel Reddington
Post Number: 1131
|Posted on Thursday, 22 September, 2016 - 07:48 am: |
It doesn't really mater whether one has imperial or metric 25.39mm = 1" My brain flips from metric to imperial at the drop of a hat.
Stainless steel head studs would probably stretch.
hellicoils are fitted. If the helicoils are SS then SS studs will gall the threads not nice being galled.
the engine no should be 5 numbers and match the VIN no. My car Is SRH 17768 and the injun no is 17768.
Re stamp engine number.
Post Number: 115
|Posted on Thursday, 22 September, 2016 - 08:04 am: |
Vladimir, the head studs are not heli-coiled, they are threaded directly into the aluminum. That is why I had no reservations in making new studs with cut threads. Every commercial fastener from the lowest ungraded hardware store offering to the highest end Formula One main studs have rolled threads. Rolled threads are stronger because the grain of the base metal is compressed and follows the lengthwise flow of the fastener. Lathe cut threads interrupt this flow.
Since the Rolls head studs are threaded directly into the aluminum block, I knew that the aluminum would give way long before the cut threads on the studs would.
I made my head studs from heat treated 17-4ph stainless aka grade 630.
Many of the other threaded holes in the block are heli-coiled. I believe the Rolls philosophy was that items that have bolts are heli-coiled and items that have studs are not.
You can check the flatness of the deck with a professional straightedge (not a hardware store ruler) and a set of feeler gages without pulling the studs. If you deck the block (again?), the liners will have to be machined to match. The liners are designed to sit proud of the deck by .002" to .003".
Speaking of micrometers, I have a million dollar Starrett set at work that I use every day and are a joy to hold and have a fantastic feel. They are dead-on accurate and were a very good investment.
I also have a super cheap Chinese set at home that are just as accurate but provide no joy. They are simply a tool.
For occasional home use, I would buy a Chinese set as long as they come with accurate standards to check against.
Post Number: 2216
|Posted on Thursday, 22 September, 2016 - 08:26 am: |
"Re stamp engine number."
Good suggestion however could cause serious problems if discovered when the car is re-registered for road use. Historic car registration might not have this problem.
Main hindrance would be finding stamps to match the original R-R number style.
My suspicion is the engine had been stolen and purchased by a previous owner to replace a terminally damaged engine. I doubt if the numbers would have been removed by a "decking" as I can envisage too many problems arising with the liners and engine block resulting in compression and oil leaks plus the amount of metal needed to be removed to eliminate the original number would create an obvious indication that all is not as it seems.
Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Post Number: 593
|Posted on Thursday, 22 September, 2016 - 01:11 pm: |
"If discovered" are yes David. The Camargue was purchased through a "reputable" New York dealer. I think that for there lawyers fees start around $800 an hour, then in Oz put another $400 an hour on top of that and I would guess that since that dealer bought the car from a bank that had security over it, opps more lawyers different state so figure another $500 an hour. And then there is me with the ability and qualifications with a decade of court work representing the really nasty gangsters with guns to societies top thieves the banks.
If the motor I have is stolen there appears to be no evidence as somebody somewhere tig welded right over the area where the engine number was making even xrays of the block pointless.
Having said that I have the build documents which were compiled by Crewe who hired the best illegible scribblers then scribing.
Oh the mysteries of this car - endless. And of course there are as we speak certain professionals in Russian Federation who for cash make these sort of little problems er vanish. Ho Ho.
Christian S. Hansen
Post Number: 380
|Posted on Thursday, 22 September, 2016 - 05:47 pm: |
Vladimir...This is not intended to be legal advice, but if indeed the area where the number would otherwise appear has been welded, presumably to obliterate that number, that act is prima facie evidence of some nefarious intent. It would be preferable if the area were simply "absent a number" and if you are ever in the position to discretely surface away the telltale welding, my guess is that such a result would be preferable to that which screams deliberate defacement. However, adding a spurious number, unless it can be done properly in such a way as to deceive a trained eye, would be compounding the fraud and make you more of a co-conspiritor than simply cleaning up the weld evidence. It is a lot easier to innocently claim that there is no visible number, than to admit that you made the unauthorized addition of your choice of numbers. Of course OZ is different, but here in California when an engine has been changed or the number does not reflect the documents, it is a simple task to file an informational form whereby the Highway Patrol examines the condition and certifies the actual number to be the relevant number in lieu of the prior number and I suppose that in the case of the absence of a number, they might authorize a particular number to be added, and then recorded as the properly accepted number. Just a thought.
P.S. I needn't point out that the term "reputable dealer" is an oxymoron that should always be followed with "LOL" !!
Post Number: 2067
|Posted on Friday, 23 September, 2016 - 04:46 am: |
Knowing who you purchased from I can state that the dealer is indeed reputable. Based just on what you've offered now and in prior posts, as well as other data points I'm in possession of, the nature of that reputation is left as an easy exercise to the reader.
Post Number: 153
|Posted on Friday, 23 September, 2016 - 08:32 am: |
Vlad, are you 100% you are looking in the right spot for the number? ie on an angle underneath the alternator area. I only ask because I look after numbers etc. for the club and it is quite common for the casting number on the top of the block (near the water outlets) to be quoted.
Christian S. Hansen
Post Number: 381
|Posted on Friday, 23 September, 2016 - 10:32 am: |
Wouldn't it be just too ironic if the welding over of the casting number, thinking that it was the "intended to be obscured" engine number, left the actual engine number located elsewhere still visible and thus available to check to determine its legal status. If thereby cleared of dubious origin, it is no doubt a simple matter of adjusting the registration records by a procedure similar to the protocol here in California to legitimize that as the accepted engine number for that chassis and thus eliminating that discrepancy by making it offical.
Post Number: 2219
|Posted on Friday, 23 September, 2016 - 08:41 pm: |
Our registration authorities in each State are rigorous in verifying engine number changes including checking the status of the donor vehicle to ensure it has legitimately been written off.
This is to minimise "rebirthing" of stolen and/or illegally imported cars.
Post Number: 131
|Posted on Friday, 23 September, 2016 - 09:51 pm: |
It's funny in the USA it is just the opposite. We are stupid with cars and a lot of the stolen ones end up in containers and sent overseas.
I once titled a car that had an engine from something else insalled. I had no idea what the provenance of the engine was. I owned and drove it for five years and when I finally sold it I found out that the VIN number (which of course didn't match the engine) was also different than what was on the title! Ooops.
Post Number: 2068
|Posted on Saturday, 24 September, 2016 - 12:40 am: |
I'm glad that someone else made mention of this, though I would not really say "we are stupid with cars."
One has to look at probability, not remote possibility, and the probability of any given car being pieced together from stolen parts from other cars is incredibly remote.
It is only since I've owned a RR and been participating on forums such as these, where differences in legal custom often come to the fore, that I ever even gave a thought to engine number. My first reaction (and my still primary reaction) is, "Who in the hell checks that?!!" Once you get into "cars of a certain age" it is not completely unheard of to have had an engine transplant at one point or another in the vehicle's history. It seems to me that it's a huge waste of time and resources to do this sort of verification since finding instances of theft for components is going to be rare.
I'll also admit that I feel quite similarly when I hear about MOT inspections, which are as nit-picky as they can be based on what I've seen offered as reasons for failing, and for how auto insurance is able to "fine tooth comb" everything in other parts of the world. When I see people posting warnings about changing tires to ones that are fully suitable in load and speed ratings for a given car, but are not what were OEM [and OEM often being chosen for marketing, not safety, purposes], because the insurer might object my head spins. My now sold Jaguar had tires with a speed rating that was far in excess of what I needed for how the car was actually driven and that resulted in far faster wear. When I went for a lower speed rating, still far in excess of how the car was driven, I didn't give (or need to give) a second thought nor any notification to my insurance company. So long as the fitment meets the technical and safety needs, that's all that matters. You do not need to match OEM equipment.
These are examples of where I believe our relatively laid back approach is better simply because it looks at common probabilities and preventing what would be most commonly occurring issues and does not focus on remote improbabilities.
Omar M. Shams
Post Number: 819
|Posted on Saturday, 24 September, 2016 - 02:56 am: |
We seem to have a happy mix between the two extremes although we have our own little issue. We do not tolerate home made cars. That is to prevent idiots from putting a Rolls-Royce RB211 into a VW Beetle frame. People need to be controlled in some way or they will be out of control. This little issue makes building kit cars impossible. However you are free to import a kit car all assembled if you wish - How does that work? This is about our only issue - everything else works fine.
The story of engine numbers harks back to the pre 80s era in which cars were valuable assets that not everyone had. These days they are disposable items that everyone can buy. Nobody now steals engines from cars. Also computer boxes in cars can yield more money if they were stolen instead of engines.
We dont bother with engine numbers any more. We used to - but not any more.
Who remembers stereos with removable front panels? that was the same thing. A point in time where something of perceived value gets the attention of the motor trade. Every phase in time has its own little quirk that time itself eventually heals.
Post Number: 2069
|Posted on Saturday, 24 September, 2016 - 05:58 am: |
Interesting. There are scads of kit cars of various types in the United States that are entirely street legal and can be registered as such. But there is also some way that the system filters this, too, since you can't just put anything with an engine of your choosing, bodywork, and a drivetrain on the road. Never having tried to assemble a car from pieces or a kit I have no idea what that process is.
Your comment about "pre-80s era" and what it meant is also really place-constrained as well. While cars have always been high dollar assets (usually second only to a home in amount expended for a single example) they have been utterly ubiquitous and disposable in the United States for longer than the 54 years I've been alive. I never registered any of the family cars and my first was purchased in 1984, but engine numbers were never asked for then nor at any point that I'd ever heard of earlier. Your VIN was wanted and that was about it. I never had a DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) staff member step anywhere near to a car I was registering, I simply presented the required paperwork (including a title and/or bill of sale), paid my fees, and that was that.
Oh, I remember well the "No Stereo" signs in cars, followed by the ones that had removable front panels. I also remember when cell phones and GPS were both new, expensive, and highly "theft worthy." You couldn't entice most thieves these days to so much as open an unlocked car door to steal your common smartphone or GPS unit. I really don't know what is the current hot item of theft-worthiness these days, but there always is one.
Robert Noel Reddington
Post Number: 1132
|Posted on Sunday, 25 September, 2016 - 06:30 am: |
When I used to rebuild engines I used to add my own numbers. 6 meant 60 thou plus pistons and so on.
Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Post Number: 594
|Posted on Sunday, 25 September, 2016 - 12:01 pm: |
Thanks to all you rascals and scalliwags and doctors of all things Crewe for your input on this insidious subject a diabolical dimensions.
I have decided to shelve the engine I have possession of and purchase either a screwed Shadow of similar year and wreck it and kidnap the engine or to get for 10 grand a fully rebuilt engine from a business in Brisbane who could well do with the business in these economic strange and weird times.
Having gone though all the Hunt House documents sent to me by Barbara Westlake I have arrived at two conclusions.
The first is just about everybody who filled out those documents when the car was built really needed management to tell them to be ninety percent more accurate and not to scribble like the local doctor does on prescriptions and second is that the real engine number of the engine I have will never be known.
Once the engine goes back in the Camargue I don't want to ever have to remove it for any reason and far less for any officious bungling bureaucratic of our transport department who would like to see if he can outdo the Soviet Union for crazy redtape marathon wacky doo.
Its a long shot that even if the engine is as hot as Sophia Loren's camel toe that anybody in the UK, HK or USA is going to put their greasy hand up and say "Vladimir, that's my engine". First they have to prove that and then they have to come and get it.
The build documents give two different numbers for my Camargue JRH 23682. The first engine number SYL15925 is listed on the Engine Assembly Form right next to the Car Number (PreVin) JRH 23682.
Then as mysterious as Ali Baba the second engine number is 23682 Listed on the Irrevocable Documentary Credit advising Credit Suisse Switzerland the beneficiary Rolls Royce Motors Lausanne Switzerland, applicant MD Motors Ltd Hong Kong for 29682 sterling. This number is also listed on three separate invoices before the monster arrived in Hong Kong as well as the Delivery and Advice Note dated 3 December, 1976.
From what other contributors have stated the engine number is the numerical part of the car number.
I am 100 percent certain I have located the precise location on the engine block where the number should be located. It's not there because of a most amateurish attempt to deck flat the engine block or remove gasket material with some type of rotary sander on the left hand side of the block. Perhaps it could have been an attempt by thieves to chop off the number, however if that is so they must have been dumber than dumb not to install a new number or to select such a horrifically nasty engine to remove and install for criminal profit. I would have tried something 10 times easier like a Ford Mustang or Oldsmobile snatch and grab. So it would seem to me, a good guess but only a guess that the engine number was removed by a useless twit probably employed on low wages in a US garage of questionable ability.
The Crewe documents record the numbers of the crankcase, crankshaft, timing gear, gearbox, pinion, both cylinder heads, distributor, alternator, both brake pumps, both accumulators and the fridge unit.
I have inspected 80 percent of these items and have found no numbers that match the Crewe documents so I would venture to suggest the engine I presently have is not the engine that was originally in the car from new.
But if that isn't enough to get your mind twisted then the quality of the Crewe documents certain are. The paint code starts out being Crown, then there is vague mention of a decision to change to White, then there is a document "16 Third Paint Inspection " which lists the car colour as Garnet. The first and second paint inspection documents like many documents in this marvellously priced bungle of paper are not even filled out at all. They do however have a drawing of a Shadow on them displayed. Amazing at twice the price of a Shadow poor old Crewe could not afford or more like decided not to buy stationery that showed a drawing of a Camargue.
Now if that does not blow you away how about the mysterious document, New Car Order marked in pen
"Private and Confidential Covering Order Internal Use Only listing the colour as Richmond Blue !!!!
To get the giggles really cranked there are many documents in the file which are simply not filled out at all !! or are only filled out to about 10 percent !!! Perhaps Crewe ran out of usable biros.
Still I love the car even if those responsible for documenting its construction appear to have the writing skills of an eight year old bother boy who required a sound whipping on a daily basis to get him to fill out the forms !!!
Post Number: 59
|Posted on Sunday, 25 September, 2016 - 01:16 pm: |
After reading these stories and studying my own build sheets, one can only imagine the goings on at Crewe in the 70's. I can picture a bunch of possibly eccentric, probably idiosyncratic, stiff upper lip Elvish master-craftsmen going about at their own merry pace- out of sync with each other of course!. The words "speed", "efficiency" and "organisation" were probably not seriously part of the Crewe vernacular- and DEFINATELY not used in the British car industry in general!. My build sheets show up "Fit brake light switch" no less than 4 times- with 4 different signatures of course!. Thankfully the numbers and colours all turned out correctly and the car completed on time.
Eccentric Elves or not- the end results were always superb!.
Vlad, I'm going with the "ignoramus who innocently machined off your engine number" theory. It's very possible the deck was machined years ago previously, possibly several times, then dismantled and cleaned again?. It's also possible that engine suffered major cooling/gasket/warpage issues?.
Did you see Kelly Opfar's "How to ruin a block/life" thread?- his number is barely visible.
richard george yeaman
Post Number: 625
|Posted on Sunday, 25 September, 2016 - 06:21 pm: |
Hi Vladimir I think you are spot on going with an other engine with an engine number clearly stamped on its block you can register the change and have the documents amended, It would be great to have this beast on the road again you have a year to have it finished before the 2017 meeting of Friends in the UK.