| Author | Message | ||
     Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 551 Registered: 2-2013 |
Hello jet setters and future world dictators.I am fast approaching the time when I shall be in a position to recommission the Camargue so apart from getting tools from my Utah connection and thrashing the Mad Scot's head about with one of his empty whisky bottles I need to come up with an engine stand. One thing that concerns me is having such a weight upon the engine to bell housing threads. All suggestions invited. The second thing is I wanted to do was remove all the cylinder liners and thoroughly evict all scale in the coolant passages. Also, has anybody had nasty dramas removing the screw in welsh / core plugs ? | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 312 Registered: 4-2015 |
Vladimir... You might consider using a second engine stand or other device at the front suitably arranged and connected to the front motor mounts in order to create a sort of "rotisserie" support like they use for "body off" chassis restorations? The premise of the idea is to allow support at both ends of the engine. Allowing for rotation and yet keeping front and rear aligned horizontally is what will require a bit of creativity, but nothing you cannot handle, I am sure. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Prolific User Username: patrick_r Post Number: 296 Registered: 4-2016 |
Vlad, Have you read the post regarding heating up your entire block to about 60 degC in a tank of water to ensure all scale is soft thus no damage to the block when extracting the liners? | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1302 Registered: 5-2012 |
Patrick Have you a link to the post you mentioned. I have used the search facility but cannot find it. Sounds like an interesting idea. Geoff | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1022 Registered: 5-2015 |
The bell housing bolts are strong enough to hold 220 BHP to a gearbox moving a 2300 kg car from 0 to 60 mph in 10 seconds. I should think peak torque is close to 300 ft Ibs. So a normal one ended engine stand will be fine. The bolts must be nipped up to say 20 fibs. No finger tight ones that can scuff the mating surfaces. Boiling the crankcase to soften scale. A couple of kettle de -scaler tablets would also help. Orange juice? An engine stand is not necessary to build engines. Some are useasier with out. Scary stuff these liners. Some wet liners are hand fit and the cylinder head bolts clamp the head and liners down , the bolts going down to the main area . ( Renault for instance) RR 410 is same plus they have a small interference fit. This means when fitting old liners back in, a good polish on a lathe with emery clothe, a 1/4 of a thou won't hurt. The head clamping is the main holding force. When hot the crankcase will expand more than the liners thus lowering the interference fit. Thus the clamping force from the head is what really holds the liner. New piston rings and bust the glaze at 45 degrees. Lathe can used or a proper one. Hopefully the liners come out clean and bores and piston are ok. I like to see the original machining marks over a large area on piston skirts and the bores. I once knurled a piston diamond pattern that was 10 thou to small for motorbike. It worked and ran fine a little bit of exhaust blue though. Note when polishing the outer of a liner it is still necessary to measure as you polish. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Prolific User Username: patrick_r Post Number: 297 Registered: 4-2016 |
Geoff, Sorry no I can't relocate this either. I read it years ago and it stuck as I found it unusual but of course it worked. The author had devised this process after a number of issues of cracking blocks etc and other dramas. It seems his issues were mainly from blocks supplied to him that had been sitting out of the car and all scale had became super hard. Of course the scale appeared to be so much worse on engines that had not been maintained properly while in service and the scale build up through the lack of a well maintained coolant concentration. I seem to remember the best "pot" he used was an old large school yard round garbage bin. This seemed to have the right diameter for the V8 block. What he did say, was that after heating of course as Robert correctly said the block expanded sufficiently, and the scale softened sufficiently for the safe extraction of the liners, and not a single damaged block after this. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Prolific User Username: patrick_r Post Number: 298 Registered: 4-2016 |
Sorry guys, I forgot to add that I have rebuilt many engines on benches and on engine stands, and Robert is correct in saying that all that is needed to ensure the bock is ok on the stand is tight bolts securing it. However I would usually tighten the bolts to the required tension for securing the transmission mounting bolts to the engine. The only engine I found easier to rebuild on a bench was a Subaru boxer engine. | ||
| Kelly Opfar Frequent User Username: kelly_opfar Post Number: 98 Registered: 7-2004 |
Geoff, the subject brought up by Patrick might be a topic started by Vladimir himself discussing pulling the liners: http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/19388.html?1457599232 Vladimir, the screw-in sockets come out easily with pin sockets. It is easiest to use an impact wrench because you can hold it straight on. Using a ratchet or wrench on them is to invite the pins coming out of the holes and making a mess.  You can see that a couple of the sockets are double drilled to be able to be used on a couple of different size core plugs. I could probably even do three on one socket. I bought a 2000 lb. engine stand from Harbor Freight for $140 and it is more than up to the task. The engine is perfectly capable of being supported by the bell-housing holes. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 301 Registered: 4-2016 |
Kelly, More magnificent work done by yourself. I just wonder how you find the time to do all the things you do. Do you have a secret you can share with us?  | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 554 Registered: 2-2013 |
Kelly can you supply also a pin drive socket for my core plugs ? Thanks also to all contributers on this thread. I think perhaps my initial question needs to be revamped. What I need to know is whether if all the liners are removed does one run a risk of cracking the block and why ? I thought from memory that Bob had stated this in an earlier thread. My concern is that I want to spent considerable time removing all corrosion scale from the block as eventually the engine will have to operate in a very hot and humid climate. My environment entails two type of weathers - hot and extremely bloody hot. It is still quite hot now right in "winter". Vomiting from heat exhaustion is common as here the sun is totally merciless, cruel and nasty. I have decided to abandon buying a Spur for now as the idea of having another classic car sitting around and not driving like a wet shrieking wildly flapping pelican attached to ones neck while a thriving bank drives you to bank genocide is appearing not a good move. However, I can't but marvel at the 1917 Russian concept of rewarding the bankers with total annihilation. Seems to me that the banks have entirely forgotten that one as I revel in being totally out of debt. Their new trick is to refuse lending to residents who reside in postcodes where the mines have croaked and anybody who has had any time off work in the past six months regardless of whether one has worked for the past 45 years. So just like " All power to the Soviet!" its a matter now of all cash to the Camargue. The black rat is sparkling its gold tooth in the morning sun and the toad is reaching for another substance whilst PussNasty tears the head off another endanger lizard having consumed all the local rabbits with wild abandon and I still ponder over what personal number plate to order. Egad! Thanks again chaps for your input. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2007 Registered: 6-2009 |
I thought it had been discussed here, but perhaps not, but I know that there was (or were) lengthy conversation about using a weak citric acid bath in the cooling system to chemically decalcify the system. Sometimes it's necessary to run a couple of cycles through, but it amounts to adding just water and citric acid (and the proportions are what I don't have at hand) as your coolant, taking the car out for a drive to get everything heated up (including turning on the defroster to get circulation through the heater core and leaving it on), then draining the mix out once things have had enough time to cool such that you won't scald yourself as part of the process. There are also commercial products, two I've seen mentioned are Evaporust and Safest Rust Remover, that are formulated for the same purpose and so that one need not disassemble the engine to do this. If you've ever descaled a tea kettle or the like with vinegar or similar you'll see that mechanical action is really not necessary to do a very thorough job of getting rid of some really, really heavy scale. I would only take things apart as a last resort. If you've already got something apart in pieces that's rusted or calcified I know that there's been discussion here about the multi-week molasses bath, which has some almost unbelievable results if speed is not of the essence and you have a big enough vat for said pieces. Brian | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 555 Registered: 2-2013 |
Thanks Brian. The molasses may be the way to go as one of the large cattle ranches near my residence has a molasses tanker truck for the cattle. I wonder what one would use to get rid of the molasses afterwards? I can buy one of the urea pods from work for the block to sit in during this process. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1574 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi. Pull out and refit again or pull alternate ones out so there is a little extra support for the block. Once the seals are free and removed I would be happy to remove them all together | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 304 Registered: 4-2016 |
Gents, A close friend of mine in Victoria with a 1928 Chev uses a mollassis tank very successfully, the results are simply stunning. http://my28chev.blogspot.com.au Take a look back at the Chev ute he is currently restoring he has set up a huge IBC mollassis tank for big items. Block and heads would be amazing, but I will ask him how aluminium goes in this process. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2115 Registered: 4-2003 |
Patrick, I don't think molasses will work on aluminium as my understanding is that it is only suitable for removing rust [Iron Oxide] from iron and steel items. I would be interested in knowing if it will remove calcification from ferrous components also Aluminium items. I do not know the chemistry of the process as it is most likely an electrochemical reaction between the rust and the parent metal involving one of more of the chemical compounds present in the molasses. Vladimir, the used molasses would probably still be suitable for cattle however I would check with district rep for the Qld Dept of Agriculture beforehand as they may have more specific information. If it is not suitable for cattle, no doubt the local ants will be your best friends for life [this will not work if the ants feed on protein rather than sugars]. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1027 Registered: 5-2015 |
Instead of molasses, how about mashed up citrious fruits. If a very close up high definition photo is taken of a corroded aluminium part before treatment then maybe after only 2 days any de corroding properties of the gumption you have mixed can be checked. Its frustrating waiting 2 weeks or more only to find it hasn't worked. Experiment. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 306 Registered: 4-2016 |
Gents, After checking with my Chev mate, he informs me that the molasses is not suitable for aluminium, or cast iron. | ||
| ross kowalski Experienced User Username: cdfpw Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2015 |
Vladimir, here is a guy with an engine on a cheap engine stand. https://youtu.be/RUUnzDmD3Kg?t=95 Also, for getting rid of scale there is a product called CLR clear. There is a clone product at the dollar store which works well for removing calcium scale. I never descaled the inside of a block with it, so a test on AL would be in order. Good Luck. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 307 Registered: 4-2016 |
OMG, interesting video | ||
| ross kowalski Experienced User Username: cdfpw Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2015 |
Oh, before watching the rest of that video or any of the videos on that channel, remember you cannot unsee things. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 308 Registered: 4-2016 |
LOL Correct I was told once "Patrick, you can not un ring that bell" | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 557 Registered: 2-2013 |
I have seen those engine stands here. They are cheap and nasty and fundamentally useless being definitely produced in some Chinese sweathole for perhaps one starved demented chicken and a small bag of out of date rice. I would not hang my RR block off one after having my Falcon's 4 litre engine block on one the Mad Scot bought for $70. See the tiny wheels on it and the narrow distance between the wheels ? It's got death trap written all over it. But it is up to Chinese standard because when it snaps the sump is saved by the crushing of your foot. I like to closely inspect the welds Chinese make. Some are works of art especially on buses like BCI buses. Art for grasshoppers that is because a lot of the welds look like they have been made by grasshoppers. Fascinating stuff. | ||
| ross kowalski Experienced User Username: cdfpw Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2015 |
You have a 4.0l falcon? Mine is a 3.2l Here's a pic in front of the RR as it appeared when I first got it.  | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 312 Registered: 4-2016 |
Vlad, In my previous role with Eaton Truck Components, I had many chances to inspect the BCI (Bus Coach Industries) offering that was brought into OZ in large numbers due to the cheap cost. One could buy 2.5 BCI coaches for the cost of 1 Volvo coach. But as they say you get what you pay for. One time while inspecting WHY an Eaton automated transmission failed in a BCI coach at Hartwigs Wagga Wagga, the toilet just dumped (which was pretty full) for no reason and without warning or in fact hitting the dump button. This crap water went streaming through the whole workshop, and 80% ended up in the pit where a number of apprentii was working or possibly hiding to avoid said work. The moral is, the electrical system just did things of its own accord without warning. The toilet dump was one, and of course transmissions that simply would not select nor change ratio. While under many of these buses, I have witnessed many of the welds (if you can actually call them welds) and what appeared to be remnants of house doors the frames were laid upon to ensure a flat surface before frame alignment & welding began. There was zero penetration, and yes I have seen far more attractive bird droppings than these Chinese welds. Nice Falcon Ross. Not a Ford guy, but I do admire older falcons. Thanks for sharing the image with us. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 560 Registered: 2-2013 |
Ross a beaut Falcon however I must transfer all chat about such a vehicle to Idle Chatter before the Moderator takes a swish at us with an editorial ice pick. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 563 Registered: 2-2013 |
Ross photo is unclear even when enlarged. Is the right hand fender crumpled or is that a reflection. I like this model for the chrome bumper. Any corrosion underneath from Mass. salt in winter? | ||
| ross kowalski Experienced User Username: cdfpw Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2015 |
Vladimir, Yeah, about that.... I might have had the brakes completely removed from the car,... then I might have backed out of the barn,.... then I might have realized that the car wasn't going to stop,... then I might have realised that I didn't really know how to turn the lights on anyway,... then I might have chosen a glancing blow off of a tree rather then burying the car in a cranberry bog,... then when the trees I was shearing off at the ground didn't actually stop the car,... I might have caught the transmission oil cooler on a rock that finally stopped the car. The key word of course there is "might" I might have eventually pulled the fender liner and mostly pounded out the dent. The RR part of the story of course is the transmission cooler hit a rock and stopped the car without destroying it's self. There is no other transmission cooler on any car ever made that could do what that one did. There isn't any corrosion to speak of underneath the car apart from the brake lines (why they didn't spec cunifer ???). | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 318 Registered: 4-2015 |
That sounds like a "No". ? ! | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 317 Registered: 4-2016 |
Ross I was inhaling a deep breath with every line of that drama as I read. I nearly passed out!! It must have felt like slow motion. How does one make a decision like that in a spilt second? Full marks for the oil cooler though. | ||
| Ben Curtis New User Username: burgundyben Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2015 |
I've had a RR410 on an engine stand, was just fine, had it bolted to two threads at the top, one by the starter and one t'other side. It sat there several months with no apparent bother. |
