| Author | Message | ||||||||||
     Chris Miller Grand Master Username: cjm51213 Post Number: 372 Registered: 5-2013 |
Hi Folks, I find these everywhere! I think there are probably about twenty on the '72. Many of mine are apparently new, but some are not...  The fittings are what my local Napa Auto Parts calls "bubble flare". I would think that this is something that would be generally available, but apparently not. I can get close:  ... but you will notice that one end is male "bubble flare" and the other end requires a gasket, which is fine in the case of the ride leveling control valves, because there is a flat surface to seal, but generally this won't work because the flexible bit of line is the junction between two hard lines, and there is no flat gasket surface. I can get these made at the ridiculous price of $40 each, which angers me considering that the above line is only $10 at Napa, and I think the lines that have already been replaced were probably some commodity source -- just guessing by appearance. So, has anybody found a common source for these lines, as opposed to my several custom sources? Chris. | ||||||||||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1562 Registered: 6-2009 |
Chris, I have documented every single hydraulic hose in the Shadow system and an inexpensive US source for same (except the high pressure hoses, which you can get made by a number of sources). There is nothing unusual about the brake hoses on our cars and the fittings are standard. One of the actual hoses has the flat bulkhead fitting like yours does, but the rest do not. These hoses are commonly available from many sources and are commodities and very inexpensive. Download the RR & Bentley Parts, Repair, Restoration & Other Resources Compilation and look for the SY hose chart that's on its own dedicated page. Brian, who sometimes wonders why I bothered to put this information together and publish it | ||||||||||
| Chris Miller Grand Master Username: cjm51213 Post Number: 373 Registered: 5-2013 |
Hi Brian, O.K., I think I found the table you describe. It's on page 58. I see your comment: "The late Shadow & Shadow II will have six (6) GHP13 or GHP26, four (4) GHP93, & four (4) GHP3 plus the 6 at chart bottom, for 20 total." Are "GHP3", "GHP13", "GHP26", and "GHP93" parts that Napa will recognize? If not how do I translate these specifications to Napa part numbers? I assume I have a late shadow, so I will have:
You mention "plus the 6 at chart bottom", by which I think you mean:
How'd I do? Chris. | ||||||||||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 884 Registered: 5-2012 |
Chris Re: How'd I do? Terrible. That noise you can hear is Brian tearing his hair out. Geoff | ||||||||||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1563 Registered: 6-2009 |
And I have a tooth to be drilled in about an hour.
Page 58? Try page 12, and clearly labeled. It's now extracted as a single page in the attachment. You can lead a horse to water . . . It's up to you to do the web searches for alternate vendors if you don't want to use British Parts Northwest. These hose numbers come up in pages and pages of results. I could not possibly present this information more clearly. I can't know whether a given car has the extra height control hose unless I'm staring at it, since I don't know the chassis number where the one was eliminated. Look at your car and count 'em! Brian | ||||||||||
| Chris Miller Grand Master Username: cjm51213 Post Number: 374 Registered: 5-2013 |
Hi Brian, Well, that's the chart I found, but I found it on page 58...  I wasn't asking about the specifics of my car (20 vs 21 hoses), I was asking if I was reading the chart correctly... I'll just assume I am. Thanks for the help, Chris. | ||||||||||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1565 Registered: 6-2009 |
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| Chris Miller Grand Master Username: cjm51213 Post Number: 377 Registered: 5-2013 |
Hi Brian, I just downloaded your compendium this morning on your advice, last updated 2015.07.26, which is yesterday. So there is a mystery, but regardless, if getting the page wrong is an affront, then please accept my apology for whatever insult I have inflicted on you. It is always a question in my mind what constitutes "early" vs "late". Seems like this distinction varies depending on the feature under discussion, and even so, a serial number would clear any ambiguity. I was assuming the '72 is a late model, but I don't know since "early" and "late" are not very well defined terms. Thanks for the help, Chris. | ||||||||||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 336 Registered: 5-2015 |
2 hoses from rat trap to front subframe. 4 hoses from front subframe to front calipers. 4 hoses from car rear body to trailing arms. 10 brake hoses total. 2 hoses from ride valves to rams. 2 hoses from body to rear cross member. 4 hoses for ride height total. Total 14 hoses. For cars without front rams. They are all 3/8 UNF. The hoses with short screw ends must have a copper washer for sealing. Do not fit short screw ones where the long screw go. The port or hole you are screwing into may or may not have a face that is dead square to the hole. To get the right hose go to brake hoses application catalogues. In the catalogue is pictures with measurements. These hoses are generic general purpose car brake hoses. Nothing special. | ||||||||||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 885 Registered: 5-2012 |
Re: To get the right hose go to brake hoses application catalogues. In the catalogue is pictures with measurements. No need. Brian has done the work for you. Why re-invent the wheel. All the information is in the resource file above. Geoff | ||||||||||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1566 Registered: 6-2009 |
Chris, It's not that you got the page number wrong. You really need to reconsider whatever PDF reader software or plugin you're using. It does not, in any way, match the physical layout of the file as far as page numbers in the original MS-Word file or the resulting generated PDF file go. When Word, Acrobat-DC, and PDF-Xchange all indicate page 12, and it is page 12, you're going to have trouble if someone sends you a PDF file and says, "See PDF page X." It does annoy me that, after having done all this ridiculously detailed work, including a summary for the whole car, that you asked questions already answered in writing. I couldn't spoon feed this information any better than I already have. The "early" versus "late" Shadow I designation has always been somewhat ambiguous to me as well. In this case, you have the car in hand and you've recently rebuilt one height control valve if memory serves. You simply need to look at how many hoses are involved at your height control valves to determine what you need to order since the rest of the car is precisely the same from the first to the last. Brian | ||||||||||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 339 Registered: 5-2015 |
Silly me Brian has indeed posted a list. I recognise the GHP numbers. GHP 3 also fits Beford CF Van. GHP Girling high pressure. Lucas also use GHP. | ||||||||||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1568 Registered: 6-2009 |
I could swear that I posted the photo documentation of these hoses when I first compiled the table. I probably did but am not finding anything from a search, so I'll do it again here. GHP3 Hose  GHP13 Hose  GHP26 Hose  GHP93 Hose with Crewe CD6242  Crewe UR14201 Hose  | ||||||||||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 346 Registered: 5-2015 |
Good photos. As can be seen 2 types long thread both ends and long thread one end and short thread with copper washer other end. The rest is length and protection spring. All prefectly straightforward. | ||||||||||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 497 Registered: 5-2009 |
I have hoses made at a local industrial supply company. They are a dealer for the Brakequip line and can make anything you want, plus they sell me Cunifer tubing by the foot. Very inexpensive. They ask how long and which fittings do you want; else just take the old hoses in a bundle sans brake fluid and pick them up this afternoon. The hoses on my 1970 Shadow were all original: they were marked Girling 70. None were leaking but all the fittings were rusty. | ||||||||||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1577 Registered: 6-2009 |
Randy, Just curious, but did you have all of yours made up from PTFE-core hosing? When the time comes to redo the hoses on LRK37110 that's what I intend to do. The place I used was also a Brakequip dealer but I need to see if there's another even closer to home. Since I live in an area where agriculture is big and so is the hydraulic equipment to make it happen it's almost certain that there is someone really local. I think that most (if not all) the hoses on SRH33576 were original when I changed them out in 2009. Even conventional brake hoses have very, very long functional service lives. PTFE-core ones are virtually perpetual. Brian | ||||||||||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 498 Registered: 5-2009 |
No, just standard brake hose, nothing fancy. The original stuff made it 40 years, and She certainly is living a more sheltered life than originally. Now I have the '77 Wraith to see after, but it seems in better condition overall, being a Southern USA-Texas-Missouri car, no salt, etc. Regards, RR | ||||||||||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 358 Registered: 5-2015 |
Not sure about this. GM in about 1993 tried to design a sealed hydraulic brake system using DOT type brake fluid. It didn't work. But one of the things they did was use Teflon liners inside rubber hoses to keep damp out. I was told this story last year by a Vauxhall tech guy. If this is correct, probably all newer rubber hoses have Teflon liners. The only way to find out is to cut a hose up. So if anybody has an old post 1995 hose then cut it open and have a look. I have a thread and pipe guy who makes hoses and pipes. Cheap and quick. Often while you wait. Nice coffee as well. | ||||||||||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1740 Registered: 5-2012 |
Re: Brian, who sometimes wonders why I bothered to put this information together and publish it Many thanks for bothering to put this information together and publishing it. It's very useful also for checking I have not missed any. I'm in the process of replacing all the flexible hoses along with the caliper overhaul. Geoff | ||||||||||
| Alan Dibley Frequent User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 67 Registered: 10-2009 |
PS: If any of your hoses have a dimpled surface like the first picture in this list replace them NOW. In my experience this means that they were original (or very nearly) fitment, and long overdue to be retired. The holes close up and cause some really weird problems as well as the obvious ones. Regards to you all from a new OBE, Alan D. | ||||||||||
| richard george yeaman Grand Master Username: richyrich Post Number: 772 Registered: 4-2012 |
Congratulations Alan for being Over Bloody Eighty Hope it wont stop you joining us in September. Richard. | ||||||||||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1253 Registered: 4-2009 |
Congratulations Alan. You must be very proud. | ||||||||||
| Alan Dibley Frequent User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 68 Registered: 10-2009 |
Thanks for the kind thoughts, but I'm not proud, I'm knackered. Just finished dismantling and reassembling most of the rear hydraulic system - it started with a simple seepage from a shaft seal on one of the height correction valves and grew into a major operation, mostly because of my own stupidity which I am too embarrassed to describe. I even built a platform bridging the engine compartment so I could work on the rear pump from above - which makes one feel sick after an hour. But it all works now and is full of nice clean blue fluid. (That should start a new topic!). Alan D. PS. My wife has failing sight so I might only come to a close-to-home bit of The Event. | ||||||||||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1606 Registered: 4-2016 |
Congratulations Alan, an OBE is a rare thing. Your a special person, and I'm betting it was for a life long effort. Well done mate | ||||||||||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1254 Registered: 4-2009 |
Sorry about your wife's eyesight mate. Of course you are proud of the OBE. Certainly as your mates we are proud on your behalf. Now tell us about the blue blood in your car......very intriguing indeed. | ||||||||||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1416 Registered: 9-2004 |
Alan well done with OBE and still working on the car. At a guess there is the Harley-Davison colour clue. Did a wrong fluid refill after the use of DOT 5 without problems cause the leak. How were the hose internals after the DOT5 use? How were the self levelling ram seals? | ||||||||||
| Alan Dibley Frequent User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 69 Registered: 10-2009 |
"Now tell us about the blue blood in your car......very intriguing indeed." When I got SBH10630 it was sick, especially in the hydraulic department. After fixing lots of leaky seals caused by rust I decided to try silicone fluid. I found a website which talked about modern rubber formulations, and tested some Orings and seals in a sample. No contra-indications so I lashed up a suction system to remove most of the DOT4+ and refilled with DOT5 (NOT DOT5.1 which is completely different - who gave them those designations?!). After a few miles I repeated the suck/refill bit (the fluids are totally non-mixable and I reused the separated DOT5). That was in January 2005. No regrets. The fluid can be recycled if there are repairs needed. An example was a leak via a shaft seal in a HCV. The low-pressure return hose was an antique and nearly completely blocked. When two passengers exited the rear seats the fluid took the easy way out via the weakest seal. It took two HCV strip-downs till the penny dropped. An accumulator diaphragm failed recently (45 years old?) and filled the rear system with a mist of tiny bits of rubber. The drained fluid can be filtered (very slowly) through newspaper (the Guardian works well) held in a kitchen strainer. It comes out bright blue again. DOT5 does not need to be drained and replaced as routine maintenance. It does not spoil the paint - it seems to protect it(???). The lubricating properties seem to suit the pumps. It does not absorb water and promote rust in the system - important in damp SW England. And it is a lovely shade of sky-blue. I will accept constructive criticism from folk who have used it for as long as I have. I read the terrible tales of disaster but also considered the info about rubber types - it worked for me. I use 'Automec' or 'Oke' sources. Well, you asked. Here endeth the sermon. Alan D. | ||||||||||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1255 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Alan OBE, I love your free spirit. If the blue stuff works then great. How long have you been using it now? Do you hear any squeals or groans from the rear of the car? Are there any other issues that you think may be related? Thanks Omar | ||||||||||
| Alan Dibley Frequent User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 70 Registered: 10-2009 |
"How long have you been using it now?" Since January 2005 - so far so good. There has been the occasional groan from the rear end, but it started after I fitted two new dampers a year or so back. Since I haven't the enthusiasm to take them out and find a way to confirm or disprove the origin of the noise..... I've found no other problems, so far, after 12 years. Just read the log book looking for hydraulic bugs - none. Alan D. | ||||||||||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1418 Registered: 9-2004 |
I have it in one of my old cars and no problems with corroded wheel cylinders etc however they do become sluggish when not used for periods of time. with inspection found waxing. IMO after looking into the DOT 5 many years ago and almost going for the change for use in the Shadow, I decided against doing it. Did some tests with an old used diaphragm that had lost its nitrogen and allowed the diaphragm to rub a hole in it. After many months testing in DOT 5 the old diaphragm softened and swelled. The other original accumulator on the car was re-pressurised and is still going strong 43 years on. Another diaphragm test with LHM was a no go. Have not tested the newer LDS yet! | ||||||||||
| Alan Dibley Frequent User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2009 |
"Did a wrong fluid refill after the use of DOT 5 without problems cause the leak. How were the hose internals after the DOT5 use? How were the self levelling ram seals?" Patrick L, I've just re-read your post - here are the answers. The leak was caused by the HCV shaft being *BENT*, I cannot imagine how. It seemed to have hung on for a long time, but the MoT man spotted it as an 'Advisory' so I had to attend to it. Spent a tedious time straightening it with the aid of the lathe. Don't know about the hose internals - after 12 years there have been no symptoms like binding brakes.... I should check. In spite of my earlier post about no hydraulic bugs in the log your question reminds me that there was a ram seal failure a few years ago - it wasn't logged because it wasn't logged. Judging from the beating needed to get the ram out when the dampers were replaced it was another 45-year-old seal. Not enough faults to suggest a systematic problem??? The important bit of all this seems to be the type of rubber used for 'modern' seals. If it's wrong, it's wrong. If not, not. I'll keep posting here if there are any more issues, especially if there is a failure of a seal which I have replaced with - I suppose - a 'modern' seal. And after all, I could go back to boring old DOT4+. Alan D. | ||||||||||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1256 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Alan, I am now interested in trying the DOT 5 fluid. I will have to research availabilty in the UAE. Nothing wrong with my YAK363 but I worry that one day I may not be able to get castor oil and then I am back to square one. Buying a fluid off the shelf has to be the answer. Thanks for your contribution. | ||||||||||
| John Beech Grand Master Username: jbeech Post Number: 425 Registered: 10-2016 |
Omar, I suspect you and I will be long turned to dust before castor oil isn't available. -- John, who approaching 60 years of age is intrigued by Alan both for his tenacity to make it to 80 years and the fact he continues working on his car, and with almost 40 years of marriage under my belt, full of sympathy for a wife with failing eyesight. | ||||||||||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2379 Registered: 6-2009 |
Amen, John. Given that castor oil has so many uses it's almost impossible to count them including in cosmetics, as a purgative, as a lubricant for things like model airplane engines, and many more it is quite unlikely that castor oil will ever disappear. DOT 5 fluids never took off other than in the military. Silicone poses a number of problems in and of itself including rust if any water enters the system since that water sinks to the lowest point and stays there. | ||||||||||
| Alan Dibley Frequent User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 76 Registered: 10-2009 |
Brian, your point about water in DOT5 sinking is a good one - I didn't think of that. In a military vehicle used in 'trying' conditions that would be a real danger, I hope not in a cosseted Bentley T. I got the feeling from reading around that one of the problems in the military was that "It is a well-known fact that hydraulic fluid is DOT4 and DOT4 is hydraulic fluid." So the two fluids were treated as interchangeable and mixed, with undesirable results. Alan D. | ||||||||||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 81 Registered: 5-2016 |
My understanding is that DOT3, DOT4 & DOT5.1 are hydroscopic fluids that attract water but the water molecules become distributed fairly evenly throughout the fluid. DOT5 on the other hand attracts air so it is not to be used in ABS systems. By virtue of attracting air DOT5 inadvertently collects the moisture contained in that air but the moisture does not mix with the fluid and falls to the lowest points in the hydraulic system e.g., the brake callipers or the bottom of the fluid reservoir. I would imagine that callipers in vehicles using DOT5 would be more prone to rust as a result and that fluid flushes and changes would need to be even more frequent than with DOT3, DOT4 or DOT5.1. That's just my unqualified opinion based on what I've read rather than on practical experience. | ||||||||||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2634 Registered: 4-2003 |
As I understand, there is a major safety issue with DOT5 if the water collects in the brake calliper housing. If the calliper gets hot enough from sustained frequent brake applications, this water can turn to steam [which is compressible] leading to partial /complete loss of braking. The corrosion problems are also a good reason for not using DOT5 especially if steel tube brake lines are present. |
Silver Shadow Hydraulic Hose Chart