| Author | Message | |||
     Peter Talbot Experienced User Username: squerryes Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2010 |
It is proposed to produce a definitive Guide, in plain language, for the final finishing of body defects and joins by Lead Loading. To make this effective, I'm going to need input, support, comments, criticisms, from all of you. To be of any value it's got to be done right, going through multiple drafts and revisions. I would hope to get out a preliminary textual draft in a few days, compiling and inserting photos will take a bit longer, a video with voice over is very much a future stage. Peter | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 964 Registered: 4-2003 |
Peter, I am willing to help in any way with your project - just let me know what you need. David | |||
| Dave Puttock New User Username: ariel Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2010 |
Peter I see that like me you are in the UK , but as this is an Australian forum, I think we ought to establish whether working with lead is permitted there. In the UK we can do pretty much what we like at home, even charge our aircon with refrigerant. But the personal hazards of working with lead are considerably greater which is one of the reasons plumbing solder is lead free, but you couldn't lead load with it as the liquidus and solidus are too close together. I think you will also need to include some serious warnings about the acids and fluxes required. Having said all that David Cameron says he wants to get rid of the nanny state, so lets go for it. | |||
| Peter Talbot Experienced User Username: squerryes Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2010 |
David - thanks your kind interest/offer. Dave - your concerns are both welcome and noted. This is just the kind of response I hoped to get from Members of this Forum - please keep them coming. Having worked for many years with lethal chemicals and biological agents, I'm only too aware of Health and Safety issues and the need to detail, explain, and document, the hazards associated with their use. As regards lead usage in Australia, I've already been in contact with the Australian Government, Department of the Environment,Water,Heritage snd the Arts and am awaiting their reply. Similar contacts have been made with the UK Goverment, Department of the Environment, and the European Union, Department of Regulatory Affairs. Update: I've been in email and phone contact with several Suppliers of the requisite materials for Lead Loading - there could be an option not to re-invent the wheel but for them to donate their already existing Instructions. Early days on this one - will keep you updated as to progress (if any). Peter | |||
| Peter Talbot Experienced User Username: squerryes Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2010 |
Regulations re Lead Use. Whilst I'm still awaiting formal responses from various Regulatory Authorities, I've spent many a happy hour (aided by the odd G&T)exploring UK/EU/USA/Australian sources. As far as I can determine, in each of these geographic areas, the use of lead in an individual/home location for "Hobby Purposes" is exempt from control. The situation is quite different in a Work/Industrial Use facility, where there is extensive legistlation/regulation. In both the USA and Australia, things get a bit more complex as State law and regulations present another tier of legistlation subservient to Federal law and regulations. This is a real minefield so am meeting tomorow with an old friend, a very senior QC, for advice in this matter. Peter | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 965 Registered: 4-2003 |
Peter - thank you for your diligence in checking the OHSA implications. Lead solder alloys are still available here for electronic applications and I suspect this is the major market for lead-based alloys. As far as I am aware, we have not emulated the European banning of lead soldering alloys so far. I must admit to stocking up on these when I became aware of the European ban just in case we followed suit. The principal OHSA concern is the breathing of the fumes given off during the soldering operation by the user - this is relatively easy to minimise by appropriate ventilation and/or the use of a face mask with a supply of breathing air. Lead pickup from handling the solder sticks is minimised by using gloves and thorough hand washing before eating/drinking. The probability of a DIY car repairer ingesting sufficient lead to cause health problems would be very low unless they do something completely stupid. | |||
| David Fairbrother New User Username: davidf Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2010 |
Body solder sticks and the appropriate tinning compound is readily available here in Brisbane although I don’t think they sell a lot of it as the technique required in it's use it does not get taught any more. There are however, some of the restoration type Panel shops around that are still using it. Apart from the Health and safety aspect I think the lack of use is mainly because the modern cars with their thinner, high tensile body panels are not conducive to heat and particularly in the smash repair business, it is much quicker and cheaper to use filler. David | |||
| Peter Talbot Experienced User Username: squerryes Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2010 |
Lunch today with a very senior QC - a retired Lord Justice of Appeal - threw up some interesting points for consideration. It would appear that inclusion of a prominent and suitable Disclaimer would be prudent. I'm not really up on all this legal stuff but I know a man who is and he is drafting a relevant Disclaimer. Peter | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 966 Registered: 4-2003 |
The main advantage of lead over synthetic body filler is the fact that lead does not absorb water - synthetic body filler is hygroscopic and will absorb moisture from the atmosphere or if it comes in contact with water as it invariably does when being wet sanded prior to application of primer or spray putty. This moisture can cause later problems with paint film porosity/pinholes or poor adhesion if it is not removed by thorough warming and consequent drying of the filler to reduce its moisture content immediately prior to painting. I suspect a few DIY restorers who have experienced unexpected paint quality problems may now recognise the possible cause of their problems. The metal temperatures required for lead wiping are relatively low and would not have any significant affect on the metal other than some stress-relieving of residual stresses from the pressing of the panels. The metal temperature during lead loading is usually around 200/300deg C depending on the solder alloy content, whether the area to be loaded is vertical or horizontal and the ambient temperature in the workshop. With regard to the disclaimer, the Terms and Conditions for use of this Forum already include a disclaimer regarding use of information from forum posts however a further specific disclaimer will not be inappropriate. | |||
| Dave Puttock New User Username: ariel Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2010 |
It is true that water contamination is an issue, but I think the biggest problem with body filler is that you don't know how well it's bonded. Sometines when you are feathering an edge you find that it keeps breaking away, a sure sign of poor bond. With lead loading on the other hand you start with solder paste and tin the surface around the repair. You dont start applying lead until the tinning is complete, so you know the bond is there. Needless to say if there is any oxide left from welding it won't tin so you have to abrade until it will. Body filler you wack it on but don't really know. | |||
| Peter Talbot Experienced User Username: squerryes Post Number: 16 Registered: 7-2010 |
Quick Update: I've now got most of the info regarding "Use of Lead" Regulations" - pages and pages of it. Suprisingly,few apply to individual use. Some might think I'm going rather " over the top" on this area but in my opinion it needs to be covered. Peter | |||
| Peter Talbot Experienced User Username: squerryes Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2010 |
Lead Loading Guide I'm really getting down to things, as I've now got just about everything required to start on a first textual draft. I'd like some input from you all as to format - please look at attached MS Word doc - this is a standard layout format for the kind of scientific paper I generally write but ? is this the right format for this Forum ? Comments, please. Peter
First time I've tried to upload to this site so please let me know (a) if it worked or(b)if it didn't. PT | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 967 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Peter, Upload successful and downloads work fine. I like your proposed format but I am biased having been trained in an Applied Science discipline. If you want comment/help for your drafts before making them available on this thread - please PM me through this forum and I will reply with an email address for you. Regards David | |||
| Peter Talbot Experienced User Username: squerryes Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2010 |
David - Greetings Hey - it worked !! Always a matter of concern on a first try to upload an Attachment to a site. I really appreciate your kind offer to comment/help on the drafts before I post onto the Thread of this Forum - I'll PM you via this Forum. Regards Peter | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 968 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Peter, There should be a direct response as well as a response through this forum waiting for you. Regards David | |||
| Peter Talbot Experienced User Username: squerryes Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2010 |
My apologies for delay in 1st textual draft - I took a rather bad fall recently(only from about 3ft when replacing a garden fence panel)- back in action now. David has most kindly offered to look at the drafts before they are posted on this Forum. Peter | |||
| Peter Talbot Experienced User Username: squerryes Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2010 |
Update: David Gore and I have been in email contact,outside of this Forum,to discuss the proposed Guide to Lead Loading. To be definitive it's got to be both comprehensive and correct, so a note of thanks to David for his help. I've always been used to "Peer-to-Peer" review of any published Paper or Article and as Sections of this Guide come through, your comments would be both welcome and appreciated. Now a question: have any of you used beeswax as a substitute for tallow?? If so, please let me know how it worked out for you. Peter | |||
| Peter Talbot Experienced User Username: squerryes Post Number: 47 Registered: 7-2010 |
You might well think this topic has died - far from it!! David Gore has kindly edited / corrected / revised / the intial part of the first draft. Consideration of the substution of beeswax for tallow as a paddle lubricant has taken on a life all of its own - watch this space for updates. Peter | |||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2010 |
Latest Update - you lot may have thought you had gotten rid of me !! No such luck - I've been real sick and had to drop out of things all of a sudden. I'm back and on my feet again !!!!!!! David, Paul, and all the rest of you - watch this space. A definitive illustrated guide to the arcane art of lead loading is in preparation and will be forwarded tothe private email addresses David Gore and Paul Yorke for comment/correction before it is posted on this Technical Forum of RROC of Australia. Peter | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1034 Registered: 4-2003 |
Peter, Really looking forward to reading your test results and, even more, to your guide. | |||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 800 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Peter, Glad that you are feeling better.  I hope it wasn't lead poisoning! Hope to see the results soon. | |||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 91 Registered: 7-2010 |
Keith Kingham, Managing Director of Kinghams of Croydon, UK, who lives only some 500 yards away from Little Squerryes, tells me that they will be doing some lead work on an Alfa Bertone GTV in the New Year. This is good news as I shall be able to get the photos I need (I used to be able to do this kind of thing myself but these days my hands just don't work well enough to handle the tools). Peter |
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