| Author | Message | ||
     felipe heuser Frequent User Username: felipe Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2017 |
Hello...recent coolant leak when stationary in garage over several days, however not sure if leaking whilst running...most likely the water pump...is there a seal kit available and would it be DIY job? And on another note just replaced boot seal and now lid won't lock in...! | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2695 Registered: 6-2009 |
There is a water pump seal kit available, but the general consensus over a very long period of time is that this job is a grand PITA for a DIY mechanic at home, and that ordering a rebuilt exchange unit, or sending your own unit to be rebuilt by someone who does this all the time, is the better option. A search of these forums should turn up multiple instances of that advice being offered. I'd definitely try my darndest to determine the actual source of the leak before doing anything else. Brian | ||
| Trevor Pickering Frequent User Username: commander1 Post Number: 87 Registered: 6-2012 |
Hi Felipe If it does turn out to be the waterpump do as Brian suggests and just get an exchange unit then it is an easy DIY job to change. Also order a new pump gasket at the same time Trevor | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2111 Registered: 6-2006 |
Argh... I remember how frustrating this board is for losing posts I typed!. Precis: Is it leaving a puddle below water pump? Check with mirror or phone camera. There should be a trail left below water pump. Water pump pulley to bottom pulley. Make sure it's not a heater matrix or similar. Exchange pump. Be very gentle getting it off the housing is brittle and expensive. There are dowels as well as bolts. Diy possible. | ||
| felipe heuser Frequent User Username: felipe Post Number: 59 Registered: 7-2017 |
Many thanks to all advice...I made an attempt to search water pump but only SS forums appeared...and adding SC nothing came up... Yes a relatively large puddle seems to be under the pump after a couple weeks...still pending to take a drive to see if leaking is visible…many times I understand they don’t, but only when stationary… Will take another closer look to see if I can see a trail, and or matrix issue… However need to wait a bit as I can’t close the boot lid after new seal replacement plus a couple of other upgrades… Didn’t realise I’ll be opening a can of worms by exchanging several seals… Regards | ||
| Trevor Pickering Frequent User Username: commander1 Post Number: 88 Registered: 6-2012 |
Felipe Have you tried adjusting the boot lid catches to allow for the thicker new seal? I had this problem as well. If the leak turns out to be the pump cut out some thick cardboard and place this on the radiator matrix to protect it while you work. | ||
| felipe heuser Frequent User Username: felipe Post Number: 60 Registered: 7-2017 |
Trevor How does one adjust lid catches? I’ve repositioned lock rods on boot floor but to no avail…the lid also is not flush with the body…don’t believe there’s a viable solution for this other than to remove it… The supplier suggested I purchase the newer version seal which has been redesigned…hmmmmm Frankly from the diagram they look more suitable... Unfortunately have had the older seal(s) too long for exchange plus purchased three lots thinking they were shorter! I’m wondering if coolant used over the years has possibly damaged something in the pump or elsewhere, although always careful to choose IAT…in any case will undertake a well overdue flush this week | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2017 Registered: 9-2004 |
How are the weep holes looking, have you checked them to see for any adverse colour leaks? | ||
| Trevor Pickering Frequent User Username: commander1 Post Number: 89 Registered: 6-2012 |
It was the lock rods on the floor that I adjusted and this worked. Where did you get your new seal from? I did not use the seal available from the usual suppliers but bought some "D" section hollow rubber with a self adhesive backing and this has proved to be good. Size was 14mm X 13mm This is similar to the door seals that the two main suppliers of parts are selling. If you have been flushing your cooling system and using IAT coolant it is unlikley to have caused any damage. Patrick is right to suggest checking the 4 weep holes on either side of the block. If you have a leak here it means that the cylinder liner "O" rings are failing. Lets hope its just a hose leak or the gland on the water pump. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 1045 Registered: 4-2015 |
FWIW... The boot lid on Cloud I does not appear to have any provision for adjustment either at the vertical posts at bottom (inside boot) or at latches (on the boot lid). Perhaps design changed on later Clouds? The lid does fit flush with the surrounding body and that yours no longer does perhaps indicates that the seal is too thick/tall. Similar to Trevor's note, the profile of the seal seems "D" shaped, feels hollow, is soft and yields to gentle finger pressure, and stands proud (above) the metal channel into which it fits only slightly (no more than 1/4"). If you would like photos, request and I will oblige. If it was installed properly, the cause of the problem leans towards an improper profile of the seal. . | ||
| felipe heuser Frequent User Username: felipe Post Number: 61 Registered: 7-2017 |
Weep holes seem to be dry... INTROCAR seal is very thick and not very soft... Photo been sent of the newer version (£56.73) which looks much better and FS also has one (£29.80) that seems correct...see attachments of all three…    | ||
| Trevor Pickering Frequent User Username: commander1 Post Number: 90 Registered: 6-2012 |
The FS one is the one I tried first and it proved to be a problem so I dumped it and fitted the D section as my previous post. | ||
| felipe heuser Frequent User Username: felipe Post Number: 62 Registered: 7-2017 |
Removed inadequate seal and waiting patiently for D section to arrive, hoping it will fit to close and lock the lid... | ||
| felipe heuser Frequent User Username: felipe Post Number: 63 Registered: 7-2017 |
Reference coolant topic, is a proper complete flush with a professional machine from a maintenance garage recommendable if never preformed before...any danger of too much pressure in the system to an older engine or better with a garden hose ? | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 1046 Registered: 4-2015 |
Do not make the mistake of thinking that it is safe to use a garden hose. Depending on your water source the pressure can vary widely. Here in the US, some municipal systems create sufficient pressure to blow out the heater matrix or a connection which can be costly to repair. Been there. Did that on a GMC pickup truck matrix. On the Silver Shadow, removing the inner box for such a repair at a service shop can cost upwards of $10,000. BE CAREFUL!! Just saying. . | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2112 Registered: 6-2006 |
If the car is ok, just gently flush and back flush. Fill and drain the car a number of times. Heater taps open. Run it each time when full and drain and flush again. Repeat as needed. It the thermostat will come out easily, do flushing with that out as well. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 1047 Registered: 4-2015 |
P.S. Just to be clear, I was NOT referring to simply opening block drains and radiator bottom drain and inserting a garden hose into the radiator fill cap. That procedure simply gravity flushes the system and does not create internal pressure. I was instead referring to pressure back flowing the coolant system using the "flush&fill" kits where you cut a heater hose running from block to heater and insert a "T" connector to which you then connect a garden hose, remove the radiator fill cap and back flush the system with the water exiting from the top of the radiator thru the cap, or alternately thru open block drains. You do not remove the thermostat with this method. While this method is effective with back flushing, it has the inherent danger of being able to great excessive system pressure in the case that the input volume from the hose exceeds the exit capacity from whatever route the coolant exits under pressure. As noted and depending on the input pressure based on the municipal supply pressure, it is possible to create a rupture in a weak point in the system. If that weak point happens to be somewhere behind the dash, you have the trouble referenced. While this is a valid back flush technique, just be careful with the input pressure!! . | ||
| felipe heuser Frequent User Username: felipe Post Number: 64 Registered: 7-2017 |
This SCIII has never had a flush in the 20+ years of ownership, only last year emptied radiator and block to replace rocker cover seals...have read if never done could be good to flush out particles and sludge…afterwards annually is sufficient draining and replace with new coolant…have also read that the normal engine pressure is about 20psi and a hose with 90psi could damage something…same I would think with the flush machines…I went to see a garage about this and was told they would rather not take the risk…all a bit confusing so maybe only do the simple flush Paul suggests… | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2114 Registered: 6-2006 |
Keep below about 8 psi | ||
| Trevor Pickering Frequent User Username: commander1 Post Number: 91 Registered: 6-2012 |
It is a very good time to flush out your cooling system with low pressure water. Back flush the radiator. Most IAT coolants have a life of only 2 or 3 years and after that become ineffective. So change every two years and flush your system when doing this to keep your engine healthy. | ||
| David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 137 Registered: 2-2009 |
I can't remember how I first found an American product called Evap-O-Rust. A member of the Brisbane RROCA was talking to me one day about his Spirit/Spur overheating, even with the thermostat removed. He said the previous owner had not looked after the car and he had tried various remedies and nothing had really worked, and he didn't want to use something caustic for fear of damaging the wet liner O rings. I told him about the aforementioned product after reading the literature about the owner of a Model T Ford who had overheating problems. He emptied his car's cooling system and filled it with the cooling system version of the Evap-O-Rust product. After the first day the car ran a little cooler. Second day cooler, third day cooler still, and by the forth day he said it was running at normal temp for the first time since he had owned it. When he drained the cooling system, what looked like black mud came out. The black of course being the carbon that was liberated from the rusted steel when the iron from the iron oxide went into solution. A good flushing and refill with whatever you put in a Model T and it was like new. The chap with the Spur I think said an engine teardown was on the cards so was worth trying anything. He just bought the regular stuff, left it in for 2 days only, because he said it was running at normal temperature by then for the first time since he had owned the car. I asked was the flushed out muck jet black, and he said no it was like very wet brown mud, and there was a ton of it, even though the cooling system had been flushed many times before. Now this product has competitors of similar ilk (google youtube videos) and is apparently neutral pH, low toxicity, contains nothing that will hurt rubber, aluminium (aluminum for you North Americans), or steel. It is chelating compound whose ions can bond to iron in iron oxide, but are not strong enough to break the bonds of iron to iron. So in effect rust is turned to liquid, and it will keep working until the solution is saturated. It is also an endothermic reaction, so running the engine helps. Will likely unclog heater matrices, possibly valves etc, so long as the fluid can reach the rust. Someone else has told me repeatedly that another that he knew drained his cooling system once a year and filled it with fresh water an and amount of dish washing detergent (not dishwasher detergent). He said he ran his car until hot and then drained it, and the amount of muck that came out was surprising. Later he just drained it, flushed it out and refilled with fresh water and inhibitor. This fellow said his radiator was like new inside. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 588 Registered: 10-2008 |
David, I have run a MG Midget with dishwasher powder in the coolant, cleaned the radiator , block and heater a treat ! Not sure I would risk a Rolls though. Mark | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2018 Registered: 9-2004 |
With rust in the cooling system IMO it sounds like the use of snake products to do a short term fix. Cripes rust in a cooling system!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would do a electrolysis test first. | ||
| Trevor Pickering Frequent User Username: commander1 Post Number: 92 Registered: 6-2012 |
I think there will be a small amount of rust from the cylinder liners present but not much. I found that citric acid works very well to dissolve and loosen the scale in the block and rad. | ||
| David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 138 Registered: 2-2009 |
I would say that the Evap-O-Rust is anything but a snake product. The U.S. military use it for a variety of tasks including de-rusting tools and weapons after field exercises. It can remove rust generated from the outside of the wet-liners without hurting the sealing rings. The same company does a product for aluminium that I think may also have been neutral pH and harmless to rubber. I've certainly used citric acid in my dishwasher to clean it in days gone by, and phosphoric acid to clean aluminium in general, but I suppose the big risk with our V8s is using anything that can attack the wet liner sealing O rings. Most other rubber items are easily accessible, but those O rings are just not worth hurting. I recall reading that corrosion, and possibly aluminium as well as iron, can build up between steel wet liner and aluminium block where the gaps are fine, and put sufficient pressure on the liner to knock it out of round. This can eventually leads to broken rings and scored bores, so I have read. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2696 Registered: 6-2009 |
Trevor Pickering wrote, in part, and 100% accurately: "Most IAT coolants have a life of only 2 or 3 years and after that become ineffective." And this is the primary reason that they are passing from this earth except for a very small niche market, and most clinging to them are doing so for no good reason. I'm now 10 years in to using a non-Dexcool (in other words, a 2-EHA free) extended life coolant in SRH33576 with no negative effects and 6 years in to using Peak Global Lifetime coolant in LRK37110 with not a single hitch or leak. I also hasten to add that I am not alone, but given the abuse that seems to get heaped on when anyone makes the revelation I'm not going to "out" the others I know that do. I avoid Dexcool or any formulation that includes 2-EHA, which can be problematic with certain older seal elastomers, in my older vehicles. I would no sooner use IAT coolants in any car anymore than I would use candles as my light source at night. I've also seen light through pretty awful rust in many a cooling system, most of which used way more water than they should have. Conversely, I've observed very little in many systems that let IAT coolant in 50/50 go way longer than 2 years. My current daily driver was purchased with a lot of evidence of rust, but after a power flush and a couple of full changes more frequently than necessary to get the rest out all is well. The new and correct coolant effectively arrests the process and it takes a long time for rusting to compromise an engine block. I would, however, prefer to avoid it in the first place, and do on cars I've controlled from day one or that arrived with a clean system to begin with. Trevor, your note about citric acid was something I had thought about adding until I saw you had. I know of quite a few people who've done a citric acid cleaning by running water and citric acid for a few days then doing a flush and fill. I could swear that the actual mixing strength, duration, etc., had been discussed at length on these very forums, but it might have been the US forums or rollsroyceforums.com. Food grade citric acid is easy to come by and plenty effective. Brian | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 1049 Registered: 4-2015 |
Brian... For the benefit of the sometimes "clueless" among us (why is everyone looking at me?) what is the IAT coolant? Is it the standard green stuff which according to its container is for use on older cars? . | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2697 Registered: 6-2009 |
IAT=Inorganic Acid Technology, and, yes, it's the good, old-fashioned stuff that's generally tinted that green with yellow overtones. It is also what was, at the time of its introduction, the latest and greatest new thing in coolant and antifreeze. OAT=Organic Acid Technology, which is what virtually every current formulation, whether Dexcool family or not, uses. I know I've posted on these forums at length on this topic but I haven't recorded the URL. I'll have to do a search. Brian | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2698 Registered: 6-2009 |
Christian, I did, and it was on the topic that started it all: A WARNING ABOUT COOLANTS This was another instance where I do not question the offering by Stephe Boddice in any way, but that this offering has been and still is taken as "the gospel truth" by gross overgeneralization. Patrick Lockyer has presented information that is in agreement with my personal "field trials" that OAT (in his case he preferred HOAT) formulations can be and have been used without issue. I personally think it is a disservice to our cars to avoid newer coolants that have far longer service lives with full corrosion protection. I've been switching all of my cars over to Peak Global Lifetime as change cycles come due. Since I've not been doing full flushes as recommended I don't take the first fill as the final "lifetime" one, but do one subsequent change 5 years later. After that I have no intention of ever changing it again. The issue was always with the anti-corrosion properties petering out, not the ability to cool, and the new chemistries make anti-corrosion protection last for longer than I'll remain alive at my age. Brian | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 1050 Registered: 4-2015 |
Brian... Thanks for the informative response. I'll consume the link later when I have time, but for now and not knowing if it is covered in the article or not, I ask what is the issue as to why you stay away from the Dexcool formulations? I have to admit to always using the standard green, but only because whenever I stand in front of the coolant shelf and look at all the options and the recommendations on the containers, I begin to get a headache and just buy the green stuff on the basis that it may not be the most modern but is at least not the wrong choice, and keeping in mind that most of my cars are the old to really old ones, and whether or not that makes a difference as to seals, gaskets, etc I do not know. . | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2699 Registered: 6-2009 |
Christian, I am told that RR/Bentley used silicone seals (or at least I think that's what I remember, it could have been another elastomer). 2-EHA is a substance in all Dexcool formulations (though it's percentage has been altered, and down, radically since Dexcool debuted) that can attack silicone and make it fail over time (and when the 2-EHA concentrations were high that period of time was much shorter). Since this is a known issue, GM itself does not recommend Dexcool be used in other than the vehicles they intended it for, and it's easy to find extended life and lifetime coolants without it, it only makes sense to avoid it for our specific cars. Dexcool, if you look the next time you're in front of those shelves, also does not claim to be "for all makes and models." When the manufacturer of a substance is telling you it has a very specific application or applications I will believe it, barring a lot of additional research. Brian | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 1051 Registered: 4-2015 |
Brian... Thanks again and you have provoked my curiosity to read the labels in more detail next time. I can only say that I have stayed with the Green since a cursory observation of the lables found none that specifically recommended "For use in Early Post War, Pre-War, and Earlier Rolls-Royce and Bentley". The closest was something along the line of "for older vehicles prior to" 1997 or whatever the relatively recent date was. . | ||
| Trevor Pickering Frequent User Username: commander1 Post Number: 93 Registered: 6-2012 |
David you are right about rust and scale building up on the liners and causing them to distort slightly. I had this problem in my engine which I discovered during a recent rebuild. There was "scuffing" on the skirt of two pistons with broken rings on one of them. Prior to pulling the liners out I measured the bores and found .003"-.005" ovality. The block was heated in a tank of water and the liners removed and then measured again and they had returned to being round again. On looking at the water passages of these two liners I found that they were more than 50% blocked with crud and near the bottom of the liner virtually no water was able to circulate and the build up of concretion had been pressing on the liner walls causing then to distort. 2kg of food grade citric acid powder was added to the water tank and the block boiled for two hours prior to pulling the liners. This did a great job at attacking the scale and made removing the liners very easy. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 589 Registered: 10-2008 |
I can only speak from experience with red coolant. This had been used in a Spirit I owned by a previous owner. I removed the heads due to a burnt valve,and there were definite pink creep marks in both head gaskets and they appeared to be de laminating . The same applied to all other coolant seals. This may have simply been old age and nothing to do with antifreeze, but given the cost of changing antifreeze 2 yearly, I only use genuine Bentley green coolant in all of my classic cars.Available easily in the UK approx. £35 per 5 litres. One pays ones money and takes ones chance ! Anecdotally, my MG runs cooler on Bentley antifreeze than other blue antifreeze to an extent that can be achieved using a water wetter in ordinary blue. anyone know a reason ? cost of Bentley green in this car is lees than Blue+ water wetter. Mark | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2116 Registered: 6-2006 |
My experience of Red antifreezes in V8 RR&B has been very bad. Turned them into tea bags. I have no idea what had been put in them but they weep badly especially from tell tale holes and also from places like the volute housing o'rings. Some of them have improved over the years since flushing and using correct antifreezes. Some the owners have opted to top up as needed. Oddly enough some now only leak through the tell tales whilst the engine is heating up or cooling down. If an unrecognised A/F is in a car, I ask the owner if they have put something special in it deliberately. Most often it is not and I flush and change to be on the safe side. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2700 Registered: 6-2009 |
Just to add on to Mr. Yorke's observation, at least in the USA, the red or red-orange coolants are all Dexcool formulations. It was one of the primary ways to identify them on these shores. I do not know if it applies worldwide, but I'd suspect it does. All of these colors are introduced colorants, none are inherent in the ingredients of the coolants themselves. I have heard that some sort of coolant is tinted pink, but have never encountered it myself. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 590 Registered: 10-2008 |
Brian, I have seen purple in a car ! No idea of its pedigree. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2117 Registered: 6-2006 |
The colours are not the same in every country or continent. Sometimes even the same county has brands with different colour coding. Purple will probably be G12 VW spec. GTs and late VWs. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2701 Registered: 6-2009 |
While I will not argue Mr. Yorke's point, which is 100% correct in fact, I will say that there is far more consistency than inconsistency. The reason I mention this is that I have yet to encounter a red/red-orange coolant that's not a Dexcool formulation, regardless of whether that's "official issue" or not. I have seen competing manufacturers in the US use different colors for coolants that are direct competitors with each other and share substantially similar chemistry. You absolutely cannot and should not use color and color alone to make an informed decision about the chemistry of a given coolant, but certain colors should raise immediate red flags (no pun intended). Always, always, always check the chemistry to ensure it is a 2-EHA free formulation. Virtually all of these will say "suitable for all makes and models" and "can be mixed with other coolants." But some non-Dexcool formulations do use 2-EHA and many will make one or the other of those two claims, if not both. The best way I've found of determining this is by going to the producer's websites and looking at the MSDS or similar. I've also e-mailed the customer technical support departments of several makers when this could not be determined by information online. It's a comfort of sorts to know that whatever the chemistry of a given brand and line, it tends to stay the same "virtually forever." If and when any change is made there tend to be "New and Improved" or "New Formula" banners on the packaging for some time after the change. Brian | ||
| felipe heuser Frequent User Username: felipe Post Number: 65 Registered: 7-2017 |
Lots of good information...been away and now catching up…however back to my initial post regarding SCIII water pump...still not certain if puddle a few weeks ago was from the pump, but after mopping the floor dry, no more coolant leaked out…all dry…hmmmmmm Today started engine for the first time in weeks and had a good look round the pump but nothing…will see when sitting again for a few days if the puddle reappears ! | ||
| felipe heuser Frequent User Username: felipe Post Number: 67 Registered: 7-2017 |
Hope all had a good Christmas ! No more coolant leakage SCIII whilst stationary so far… Regarding above photo of rubber boot seal, the middle 'D' hollow example...the flat end will be glued but which top end (long or short) should go round the outside rim? | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2125 Registered: 6-2006 |
Usually the longer side is up so it forms a gutter. Water pumps can give occasional puddles then be ok for a while.... But that is also true of other components. Merry Christmas and a great 2019. |
