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felipe heuser
New User
Username: felipe

Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2017
Posted on Friday, 03 November, 2017 - 08:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello...since only last year having problems with distributor tuning which runs fine for a while but shortly after returns to miss and backfiring. Starts fine cold and runs well at moderate speeds but with more throttle will miss and at full totally sputter and lose power. Changed twin points and condenser but still not right. I'm old school and prefer to retain original factory equipment, but is it time for an electronic 2 point v8 distributor conversion? Or would I have to go for the whole assembly?
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Carl Heydon
Prolific User
Username: car

Post Number: 149
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Friday, 03 November, 2017 - 09:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Did the change of points and condensor change it significantly or is it just smoother until the miss returns? If so the coil may be breaking down when hot.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1939
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 03 November, 2017 - 09:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Check the coil and also make sure the bob weights are free and that the springs are intact.

Also check the fuel filter mesh and lines for a blockage.
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David Balfour
Frequent User
Username: sidchrome

Post Number: 78
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Friday, 03 November, 2017 - 02:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Felipe, I consider myself an enthusiast, but I'm not parochial when it comes to improving my car. One of the first things I did, was replace the twin points in the distributor with a Pertronix breaker-less ignition. I was only keen to try it because I didn't have to permanently modify any part of the car, and once installed, nobody knows it's there. The breaker points, base plate and screws are all in a zip lock bag if I ever feel the need to go back to points. The advantage in doing away with them is reduced timing scatter, and not having to worry about points cleaning or adjustment ever again - hooray. Because there is no physical contact, there is no physical wear.

Now to your problem - you may have a breakdown in insulation somewhere that the high tension that is tracking across. Location #1 the internals of the ignition coil. These things don't maintain their insulating properties forever. Pertronix recommend using one of their matching coils with their breaker-less ignition, so mine was changed then. I couldn't agree more, but if you are just wanting it to run and keep your existing points setup, buy a new high quality coil. Not a Rolls sourced NOS one, or any NOS one for that matter. I'm sorry to say that age does weary them. The coil should be of new manufacture, using modern insulation - not every thing old is better.

#2 location is the distributor, where sometimes the button is to blame buy allowing the HT to track to the distributor shaft. Another interesting issue that plagues some V8 clouds, is the rotor button moving on the shaft. Mine had the habit of slipping up the shaft just enough to disengage from the key. A thin piece of paper inserted into the the rotor in the right location helps it to stay tight on the shaft and stay put. When it did move, it did exactly as you have described above. Of course when you disassemble everything to check, you put the button back on in the right position and the fault goes away! So it can lead to a false, if but temporary, sense of security. It wasn't until I realised that the button was coming off at a different angle to which I was re-fitting that I discovered what was going on.

The final location, apart from bad leads are the plugs themselves. I fitted iridium plugs to my car, and it was as though someone had waved a magic wand. The engine had never run so smoothly. Someone told me that its best to run the iridium plugs with a new coil and breakerless ignition. I don't know that it is necessary, but in the interest of smoothness, especially at idle, there is no comparison. To be fair, it wasn't just the iridium plugs, as the reason my old plugs were no good was that many were sooted up from the engine running too rich. I eventually traced the cause to a holed SU carburettor brass float, which was half full of petrol.
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felipe heuser
New User
Username: felipe

Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2017
Posted on Saturday, 04 November, 2017 - 04:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Firstly truly grateful for all the invaluable advice...

Coil has only recently been exchanged but they can and will go earlier than expected...good tip.
Last time one went the car just stopped and not a clue what had gone wrong and not after towing back home was this successfully diagnosed!

Now that I remember, it does seem to worsen and always on the return drive home.
Yes, there was a considerable improvement when points were changed especially after the first evening when it failed to proceed and had to be towed.
The old plugs (not terribly sooted) were also exchanged along with distribution parts ordered from FS.
The fuel filter as well recently cleaned and new SU fuel pump.

I do agree, and sometimes better to be practical and replace with advanced modern equipment…
Recently gave up with the slow original heavy starter motor and replaced it with an upgraded electric motor which almost looks and fits as OE part, and indeed what a wonderful difference… old one is stored in case if sold, prefers the original !

Whilst on that subject, after replacing the motor noticed one flywheel tooth is broken off and we all know what exchanging this wheel will confront… so, is there any chance of soldering the missing bit back in place?
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Trevor pickering
Experienced User
Username: commander1

Post Number: 23
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Sunday, 05 November, 2017 - 01:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Felipe
A word of caution regarding your new starter motor!!
I purchased one for my Cloud 3 but did not fit it because there is a problem with them.
You will find if you measure that even when the Bendix is fully extended the gear will only contact half the width of the ring gear causing uneven wear and eventually problems.
You will be unable to repair the tooth on your ring gear and it will require replacement which means removing the gearbox

Regards

Trevor Pickering
1964 SC3
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felipe heuser
New User
Username: felipe

Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2017
Posted on Monday, 06 November, 2017 - 02:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Trevor...hmmm...not very good news...
can one actually verify to see that contact is adequate with new starterrmotor?
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Trevor pickering
Experienced User
Username: commander1

Post Number: 24
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Monday, 06 November, 2017 - 02:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes you can Felipe

remove the starter motor and measure the distance from the face of the starter housing to the far side of the ring gear and then measure the distance from the face of the flange on your new starter to the outside edge of the gear on the Bendix when it is fully extended.

If you do this you will be able to tell if the distance is correct or not.

Hope this helps

Trevor Pickering
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1602
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Monday, 06 November, 2017 - 05:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Felipe many years ago had a car that was a flood victim, the owner tried to crank the engine, water does not compress, the result was two broken flywheel teeth.
The owner wanted the car to complete his business trips ASAP.
Plugs etc removed and a good dry out!

So the teeth were recovered and original
positions marked.
Drilled two holes in each of the teeth and ring gear 2ba thread or thereabouts.
Screwed the teeth back in place with bearing fix and filed down for clearance.
It worked, the owner call in after many months to say that [IMO the bodge] was still working and he will leave as is.
Can't remember but the car was maybe a Armstrong or Jaguar.
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David Balfour
Frequent User
Username: sidchrome

Post Number: 79
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Monday, 06 November, 2017 - 04:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Trevor (and Philipe), I too have a geared starter I bought from British starters. Mine has been in for a few years without issue. I was concerned when I saw your comments, so I emailed them about your experience, and got the following response.

Hi David,

Thank you for your message, and i'm happy to hear our starter is working well for you. I have never received word from any of my customers regarding fitment, or improper engagement on the flywheel. On average, we sell 75-100 Rolls Royce / Bentley starters yearly around the globe.. We also sell our starters through major RR parts companies both here in the U.S. , and in England, and over the past 9 years of selling to those entities, none have come back with any concerns or complaints either.

I know competitors have come and gone due to complaints that they sold Chinese knockoff starters, promoting them as proper japanese Nippondenso units like we sell. One would have to wonder if the person referenced in your email has one of those starters?

Best Regards,

Dave Austin - owner

Happy Motoring! Dave

Classic Car Performance, Inc. <= link to website
142 Wagmans Ridge Rd
Saratoga Springs, NY 12866
518-290-0390 Forwards to Cell (call anytime)
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Trevor pickering
Experienced User
Username: commander1

Post Number: 25
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Monday, 06 November, 2017 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you David
It is a fact that these starters will and indeed do work and turn the engine over well.
The problem with them was brought to my attention by a friend who purchased one for his Silver Shadow and measured distances prior to fitting it.

I purchased mine direct from British Starters and paid "top dollar" for it but found it had the same problem.
If you use your car infrequently they will probably give many years service but are causing uneven wear on the ring gear.
I do not believe these two cases are an isolated incident but stand to be corrected!!!
My new starter is sitting on the shelf in the garage and the original one is still giving good service.

best regards

Trevor Pickering
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felipe heuser
New User
Username: felipe

Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2017
Posted on Wednesday, 08 November, 2017 - 07:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello...interesting solution to fixing broken teeth to the wheel, but unfortunately mine was missing and lost when replacing the starter.

I purchased my upgraded starter from Everthingrollsroyce - Paul York, who I believe contributes to this forum. I've only experienced on few occasions and solely from cold starting when the starter motor tries to crank with a thug but doesn’t move the flywheel, until I've learned and patiently attempt several times until it moves and finally turns over. Could this be that by chance the missing tooth happens to be in the start position? Unusual that this shouldn’t happen in the course of the day when starting several times during a drive out but never once locked, as when it sporadically sticks from cold after weeks in the garage.
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Trevor Pickering
Experienced User
Username: commander1

Post Number: 26
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Thursday, 09 November, 2017 - 05:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Felipe
This sounds like it may be a problem with incorrect meshing of the depth of the teeth on the starter and ring gear.
There is an adjustment on your new starter to change this depth as there is a cam arrangement on the spigot flange.
This must be set to give the same mesh depth as the original starter or there will be problems.
You can check this by measuring the depth on the original and adjusting the new one to this reading.
Also check the wiring connections on the new motor are clean and tight.
If you already have missing teeth on your ring gear this will not help the situation as there is probably other damage and wear that is not so noticeable.
Hope this help

best regards

Trevor
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1610
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 10 November, 2017 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Felipe If you need timing curve check ETC I have data from 1955 S1-2-3 onwards.
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Philip Sproston
Experienced User
Username: phil2025

Post Number: 28
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, 13 November, 2017 - 09:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Here in Australia we have locally made starter for S2,3 not the same as SS due to the hand brake pulley being too close so we rolled the starter closer to the block. Also have full distributor replacement with Bosch internals that bolts straight in with or without vacuum units
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David Balfour
Frequent User
Username: sidchrome

Post Number: 80
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Monday, 13 November, 2017 - 01:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Philip, Yes the Nippondenso starter too needs to be rolled slightly on its mount for RHD cars which is easy enough to do as there is plenty of adjustment.

One question,
Why would you want to change the whole distributor when you can just add breaker-less parts to the inside of the existing one without altering the factory appearance, and presumably at a significantly lower cost? Just wondering!
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felipe heuser
New User
Username: felipe

Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2017
Posted on Tuesday, 14 November, 2017 - 08:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello David,
My initial query reference distributor upgrade, now understand and reviewed options and yes would go for the lower cost internal parts.
So is that what my starter is a Nipponndenso...no markings on mine, and BTW my SCIII in question is LHD.
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David Balfour
Frequent User
Username: sidchrome

Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 14 November, 2017 - 01:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Felipe,
It may well be. The one I bought looks like the one in the image below. Nippon Denso Starter
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Trevor Pickering
Experienced User
Username: commander1

Post Number: 27
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 14 November, 2017 - 06:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Felipe
Here is a picture of my starter that I decided not to fit.
The adjustment is made by removing the two cap head screws and turning the flange to the next hole.

regards

Trevor
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felipe heuser
New User
Username: felipe

Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2017
Posted on Friday, 17 November, 2017 - 03:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Are these adjustable...I understand one can with the older original starters ?

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