Post Number: 470
|Posted on Wednesday, 10 September, 2014 - 04:09 am: |
The common wisdom is you can never recover your costs in restoring a car; it is always cheaper to buy a fully restored one than to do it yourself. This is obviously true of lower priced cars, but is it true of a Silver Cloud? Of course, if you factor in labour charges then any restoration is always going to be very expensive. But what about a determined enthusiast using his own spare time. What are the actual costs?
Here in the US, the NADA price guide lists a Silver Cloud in need of restoraton at 20k and a fully restored one at 70k. If I suggested the ball-park figures of 20k for the original car, 10k for mechanicals, 5k for respray and re-chroming, 5k for the interior, 40k total, would I be laughed out of the forum by any restorers who know the true costs, or is this figure about right?
Post Number: 149
|Posted on Wednesday, 10 September, 2014 - 07:55 am: |
We are within a few months of finishing our restoration on a 1958 Cloud 1 standard steel saloon. Apart from your suggested price for a car in need of full restoration, I would suggest that all your other figures would be at least double what you have suggested if done to a high standard and depending on the original condition of the car, of course. We have done a ground up restoration, literally down to the last nut and bolt and I have kept meticulous records over the three and a half years and counting of the project. With very, very few exceptions, we have done the entire restoration ourselves as a hobby and we have just passed the 5,000 man hour mark. It doesn't take a genius to work out that you would never get your money back having the job done professionally and paying for the labour. As an example, we have taken all the bright work to be re-chromed or re-polished in the case of the stainless parts and, believe it or not, there are 125 pieces. Bearing in mind how labour intensive chrome plating is, it is easy to see how the costs can soon mount up. My fellow restorer and I are both retired so it has been a labour of love for us as our labour costs are zero. We would have needed to be very wealthy indeed to pay someone else to do what we have done so as a financial investment, a restoration such as ours is not viable.
Post Number: 45
|Posted on Wednesday, 10 September, 2014 - 06:39 pm: |
Chris and Geoff.
Just for information.
The Concours overall winner at the 2014 Australian National Rally was a beautifully restored Silver Cloud 111.
This car was imported from Canada and had been restored in Canada at a reported cost of $190000 US.
I make no judgement about the value of such an undertaking, however it was a beautiful car, and gives an idea of what a full restoration may cost.
richard george yeaman
Post Number: 199
|Posted on Wednesday, 10 September, 2014 - 08:06 pm: |
Hi I had a look on e bay and came across a 1962 Silver Cloud 11 convertible chassis no LSAE 281 restored in 1997 the car is left hand drive and has 59000 miles the car is in Marlow Berkshire England and the price is £395000.00. wonder what the History is on that.
Posted From: 220.127.116.11
|Posted on Sunday, 21 September, 2014 - 07:59 am: |
It is possible to with luck to do it for $40k. If the car is all there and the mechanics are just worn out and not broken and the interior is recoverable to say not new but pleasant then maybe.
Both the V8 and the six can gobble up money. Things like cracked castings and it gets expensive fast throw in a something like a steering box and joints and the budget is completely blown. Gearbox is not to bad. The brake parts are expensive.
A body off nut and bolt restoration to as new will cost loads. And even diy the parts Bill is big. Then the time factor.
Every restoration I have been involved in something expensive has come up surrounded by small problems that add up to expensive.
At best to keep it down to 40k you will have to compromise hear and there reusing not perfect chrome. The finished car will be worth what it cost to do if a good acceptable job is done, but it's all to easy to end up with a average diy restoration.
If a restoration project is 20k what does 30 k buy.
I would look at the range of prices and work out the cheapest route which may be to buy a tidy straight old car for 50k and just maintain it and drive it.
Cheapest way to get a show winner is to buy one.
However that's not the be all and end all because if you want to restore a cloud then go for it.
Buy the best one you can that drives. Check the chassis everywhere because it's made from 16 swg and is differcult to repair to show standards but not toI bad to repair to a lesser workman like standard. Some areas will require extensive dismantling to gain proper access. Beware of cars that drive but are masquerading as better than they really are encouraged by the vendor.
I would like to do a dawn but I just can't afford the dosh.
The last restoration I did was a 1973 MG Midget 1275 cc. I took all the bits off the shell and cleaned and pianted them welded all the rust up resprayed the shell in blaze and reassembled with new stuff like exhaust tyres battery and brake bits. New hood New carpets New seat springs etc. The mechanics were ok when I brought the car. It still took 500 hours and £800 in bits. It made a profit of £1800. It came out as a nice tidy shinny solid sports car for a small person. But am not an amateur I am a qualified historic vehicle restoration and conservation engineer with 50 years experience of clapped out old cars and Midgets are simple cars.
On the other side a MGB soft top
When we took the front wing off the leg inner wing and half the bulk head was from another car and was bodge welded. On a car with no roof it requires a lot extra work to repair properly because the shell will move if we just cut it out and because it's been bodged we had no reliable datum points so the owner brought a new body shell which trebbled the cost.
Add lots of zeros for a cloud. Except take them away when if the car is sold.
(Message approved by david_gore)
Post Number: 157
|Posted on Sunday, 21 September, 2014 - 06:45 pm: |
On a Shadow, the cheapest way is to buy two cars and use the second one for spares. You can pick up a non-runner for round £3000 and you can get over £20,000 worth of parts from it, more if you're lucky. What you don't use, you can then sell on.
Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Post Number: 135
|Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2015 - 07:48 pm: |
SORRY ABOUT THE CAPITAL LETTERS BUT MY LAPTOP KEYBOARD HAS GONE FERAL ON ME AGAIN NO DOUBT BECAUSE ITS MADE IN CHINA AND IS ONLY 2 YEARS OLD. GEOFF, I THINK SOME OF YOUR FIGURES ARE TOO LOW. RECHROMING CAN REALLY EAT THE WALLET. I THINK IF YOU ARE A MECHANIC OR HAVE MECHANICAL ABILITY YOU CAN ADAPT THAT AND LEARN HOW TO PAINT AND HOW TO UPOLSTER AND HOW TO REFURBISH THE WOOD. BUYING ANOTHER CAR TO ROB PARTS OFF IS A SAD SAD THING TO DO BUT IT DEFINATELY WORKS. I ALWAYS HAVE A GIGGLE WHEN I SEE WOOD DUCK HUNTERS ADVERTISE
SOMETHING LIKE A CADILLAC OR LINCOLN AND STATE "EASY RESTORATION". SOME PEOPLE ARE EITHER PROFOUNDLY DISHONEST AND THINK EVERYBODY ELSE IS A MUG OR BOTH. OBVIOUSLY RESTORING A FORD ESCORT IS EASIER THAN RESTORING A LINCOLN MARK 2 OR 3. AND THEN IT DEPENDS WHAT CONDITION THE CAR IS IN. HOW DOES ONE KNOW WHAT IS REALLY UNDER THE GLOSSY PAINT. IT COULD BE STEEL OR IT COULD BE 2 INCHES OF BOG. A MAGNET IS ESSENTIAL HERE BUT USELESS ON A SHADOW IN RELATION TO THE TRUNK, HOOD AND DOORS THAT ARE ALL ALUMINUM. SOME RESTORERS ARE OVERPRICED AND SOME ARE FULL BLOWN CROOKS AND THIEVES. SOME DO AN EXCELLENT JOB FOR MEGABUCKS. I SEE RESTORING A CAR AS AN ACT OF LOVE BETWEEN A MAN AND HIS MACHINE. WHEN I RESTORE A CAR I DONT LIKE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT I AM SPENDING. BUYING A RESTORED CAR CAN BE BUYING A CAR THAT HAS BEEN RESTORED PROPERLY OR IT CAN BE BUYING A CAR THAT IS NOT ALL THAT IT SEEMS. SOMETIMES WHEN I BUY OVER THE INTERNET I ASK FOR PICTURES UNDERNEATH THE CAR AND WHEN SOMEBODY IS ANNOUCING THAT THE CAR IS
"FULLY RESTORED" BUT THEN SAYS THEY HAVE NO WAY OF RAISING THE CAR TO TAKE PHOTOS, I QUICKLY HIT THE DELETE BUTTON. CARS WHERE THE PRICE IS NOT ON THE AD SIMPLY CAUSE ME TO MOVE ON. YOU CAN LOOK AT A CAR AND SEE IT IS COVERED IN SURFACE RUST AND THE PAINT WORK, THAT IS WHAT IS LEFT OF IT, LOOKS REALLY AWFUL BUT SUCH A CAR CAN BE BETTER TO RESTORE THAN A CAR THAT IS NICE AND SHINY BUT IS REALLY JUST A BOGGED UP PIECE OF JUNK. NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE COST OF NEW DOOR AND WINDOW RUBBERS AND ALL THE OTHER PIECES OF RUBBER THAT GO UNDER THE HEADLIGHT HOLDERS ETC. IT ALL ADDS UP AS THAT IS PART OF A TRUE RESTORATION. ALSO MECHANICS CAN GET UP TO SCALLYWAG BEHAVIOUR. I WORKED FOR A CITROEN DEALERSHIP ONCE AND THE OWNER WAS TELLING US ABOUT WHEN HE ASKED THE MECHANIC TO JUST PACK UP THE CONROD BEARINGS WITH PAPER. WORKED MARVELLESSLY BUT IT BECAME A RIGHT EMBARASSMENT WHEN 6 MONTHS DOWN THE TRACK THE ENGINE STARTED TO KNOCK. ANOTHER GARAGE PULLED IT APART TO FIND THE PAPER USED TO PACK UP THE BEARINGS AND ON THE PAPER WAS THE NAME OF THE COMPANY "DEPENDABLE MOTORS" - YES THE NAME OF THE CITROEN DEALERSHIP!! "RESTORED" TO ME IS JUST A WORD THAT CAN MEAN MANY THINGS.