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Amir Jetha
New User
Username: amirjetha

Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 08 December, 2004 - 12:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I own a 1935 P-II Continental (Chassis No. UK-62) in Bombay, India. The car had developed a steering shake/shudder at speeds above 55 MPH, it is smooth until that speed after which the slightest irregularity in the road surface gets the front end to shake severely making it impossible to keep the car in a straight line. I have balanced all the wheels but this has not helped. The other minor problem (which may or may or may not be related)is that the steering action is very hard as I turn the wheel towards either of the two extremes and the resistance is coupled with a loud squeak from the steering collumn (especially at very low speeds while parking). Any suggestions on dealing with either/both of these peoblems before I open things up will be appreciated. Thanks.. Amir
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 140
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 08 December, 2004 - 05:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Amir.
What a splendid car you have,and7,668cc under the bonnet if i am correct.
First Question does the steering self centre after a turn or do you have turn it back.
Have all the checks with regard to castor and king pin inclination been carried out.
Are the spring shackles ok,no wear.
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Amir Jetha
New User
Username: amirjetha

Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 08 December, 2004 - 03:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Patrick - thanks, it is a wonderful car. To answer your question - the steering does self correct as long as I do not veer too far from the centre but as I get closer to the extremes it does not self centre - even at normal city driving speeds (30 kmph or so). So far I have not conducted any checks and was looking for advice on what to look for before jumping in. My primary hesitation is the lack of availablility of spares so I want to do as little as possible to ensure that the car is not laid up for months on end while I source spares to put everything back together. This is perhaps the only P-II in India and there are but a handful of people that have little experience, if any, on these cars - so any details on how to go about these checks will be highly appreciated. I do not have a detailed workshop manual so any ideas on where I can get my hands on a copy will also be great. I have attached a current picture of the car. Thanks..1935 Phantom II Continental (Gurney Nutting)
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 142
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 09 December, 2004 - 07:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Amir,wow that is a motor car!
Anyway to your problem.
I would suggest getting axle stands under the front main chassis members,letting the axle beam hang.
Because of the shudder i would check all the front shackles,king pins,swivels,wheel bearings etc for any excess movement or wear,or seizure.
How have you had the wheels balanced,if carried out on the car.
Ie just staticaly.
As you have confirmed the steering self centres on most of the travel this confirms that nothing is bent,castor and king pin inclination.
However the stiff steering may point to some part of the cause as it should effortless.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 144
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 09 December, 2004 - 10:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Amir,
forgot,the shackles are tested under load,car standing on its own wieght.
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John D
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 144.138.194.81
Posted on Thursday, 09 December, 2004 - 03:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Amir; What a wonderful looking car that you have!. If my memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall a reference,perhaps on this forum (R.T; can you recall?) which linked to a site showing the "step by step" restoration of a Phantom, either the whole car, or maybe just the engine; as if that isnt enough!. You may already know of that particular website or some other member here might be able to direct you. In any event, the "web" is such a convenient tool for auto.students from amatuers to first, or even second year apprentices. I have a variety of cars and often call up the web to check technical data/issues or even basic background information. Whether you have an English Phantom ("R-R") or an American "Cord", you would be suprised how one can develop what might be described as a "pocketbook" authority (on almost any make/model)in a matter of minutes, if not seconds. Good luck with your fabulous motor car which I hope you keep forever!

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Amir Jetha
New User
Username: amirjetha

Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, 09 December, 2004 - 07:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John, I have not come across the article you refer to - if anyone out there has any information about this it will be a great help. Patrick, the wheel balancing was done just statically - I plan on checking all of the parts you mentioned for wear or seizure and taking it from there. Also, the steering self centres only on a small portion of the travel but as I get beyond a minor turn the resistance is progressive as I approach the extremes - any thoughts on what I ought to look for first?? Thanks
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 480
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 09 December, 2004 - 08:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Have a good look at Stephe's site:

http://www.boddice.co.uk/index0.htm

Your steering behaviour sounds like a case of rather excessive castor. That means that whenever you turn the steering wheel you are lifting the car upwards. That can be quite hard work !!

RT.
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Amir Jetha
New User
Username: amirjetha

Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, 09 December, 2004 - 09:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard, your theory is aligned with something a local mechanic mentioned - he had encountered a similar problem on a Derby Bentley where as the ride control was hardened, the problem reduced but was not eliminated. His solution was to insert wedge plates between the axle and springs to change the castor - I am sceptical about this solution - how do you recommend I go about adjusting the castor - are there specific settings on this car for the same. thanks
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 481
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 09 December, 2004 - 11:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi again,

As the PIII and onwards have IFS, their data is not relevant, but they use shims to set the castor.

I'll pose thze question to the RREC experts today.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 482
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 10 December, 2004 - 01:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have posted the request withg the RREC.

Have a look at this German site with all bells and whistles on a PII restoration.

http://www.rr-phantom-ii.de/
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 145
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 10 December, 2004 - 04:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Amir.
My advise is do the basics that i sugested first with the following additions.
As the w/balance has been carried out staticly do try having the balanced dynamicly and then see if there is any diference in the shake shudder speed range.
I myself are not happy to put wedges in to get more castor at this stage as it in most cases temperaraly getting over some other developing problem.
Ie do check the front springs for ride hight as they can do funny things to the castor angles,also it is a must to remove the gaitors and lubricate the springs with copious amounts of oil with axle hanging.
Regarding the stiff steering may i suggest removing the one end of the drag link from the drop arm, pitman arm, pendelum arm,or whatever and turn the steering box through out its turns unconected to make sure it is free first.
Hope this helps on the basics.
Keep us informed. Pat.

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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 483
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 10 December, 2004 - 07:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Howzzat !!!

I hope that you play cricket.

From Alan Padgett, RREC:

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv



Castor angle 2½°pos.

Camber 1°Pos.

King pin inclination 2½°

Toe in; Parallel to 3/16th" .

track rod dead straight and good ball ends. Worn balls are not acceptable as they wear oval.

Front axle must be straight and no twist, otherwise the above dimensions will not be correct.

The camber of the front springs effects the castor. Wedges/spring to axle pad, will effect castor. Adjustable by angle. Setting will alter with spring deflection under load.

Steering arms must not be bent as it will effect toe in or out.

Alan Padgett


vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


RT.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 148
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 10 December, 2004 - 07:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Howzzat!!!
No ride hieght.
Springs.
Basics first Please.
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John D
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 144.138.194.214
Posted on Friday, 10 December, 2004 - 06:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello again Amir. You might like to consider joining the UK based R.R.E.C and the US based R.R.O.C. both of which will be able to provide a wealth of information re your very fine motor car. Their respective bi-monthly magazines will reveal many parts sources which I feel may be of interest to you.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 151
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 10 December, 2004 - 03:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

J.G.Dare
No need while this excellent forum has experts like Richard T.and others.

(Message edited by david_gore on December 11, 2004)
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Amir Jetha
Experienced User
Username: amirjetha

Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, 10 December, 2004 - 05:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This is great info - And no - I am not a huge cricket fan except that I enjoy the occasional one dayer!! Thanks for the input - I plan on getting started on this in the coming week and will keep you all posted - in the meanwhile if anything else comes to mind please keep me posted...
Amir
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John D
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 144.138.194.11
Posted on Friday, 10 December, 2004 - 05:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you Patrick, for your offering of 10/12. As a member of BOTH, I suggested these other two prominent clubs/forums due to the large number of R-R "Phantom" cars surviving in both the U.K and U.S.A. I AGREE regarding your reference to OUR local forum with advice from engineers such as Richard T, and Robert Chapman. Kindly note that I ALSO alluded to the availability of SPARE PARTS (from UK or USA) either original (used) or reproduction etc. In view of Amirs somewhat remote location, I trust that you may appreciate his need not only for sound,reliable advice, but also for likely PARTS sources.

(Message edited by david_gore on December 11, 2004)

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 157
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Sunday, 12 December, 2004 - 09:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Amir,another point to address is the hydraulic shocks,make sure they have oil and disconnect arm to test for resistance.
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Mick Rust
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 203.59.174.45
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 06:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Amir. As the owner of P11 61WJ and having travelled many thousands of miles in the car I can relate to your problem. When the car was first on the road the slightest road hump would set of this violent shaking of the car. Before I started pulling the front end apart I was told by a fellow P11 owner that if you increased the front tire pressure to 50 Lbs the problem would go away. I thought that it was most unlikely that it would be the case but as it was only a few minutes work I had a go.Guess what? Many miles later and not once at any speed has the problem reared its head. So I know it all sounds all to simple but have a go.}

(Message approved by david_gore)
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TRACHSEL J.
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 213.221.255.237
Posted on Tuesday, 21 December, 2004 - 04:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi all

I am astonished that up to now nobody hinted to the steering gear box itself as a possible source for the problem described by Amir. At least for the 20/25 hp it is a well known weakness with hi-milers (obviously at over 70 years many of these cars have racked up a lot of miles). The worm-and-nut type of steering gear with their babbited surface are prone to wear around the center position and tend to bind towards steering lock, similar to what Amir describes as his second (minor) problem.

I am no expert on these steering gears, what I relate here is what I have been reading on this theme. Luckily, the steering gear on my 20/25 hp was sound, as this problem is said to be not easily corrected. There exists a special gear oil that is said to alleviate this problem, which is available from the RREC Club Shop at the Hunt House (and possibly from other sources as well).

Jonas (GZU7)


(Message approved by david_gore)
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 190
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 28 December, 2004 - 07:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Trachsel J.
The above 10th December posting: removing of the drag link from the drop arm was for the testing of any drag etc on the steering box through out it turns.
Regarding oil for the box,from my records there is nothing special about the oil S.A.E 80/90 PH11.
If it was a PH111 it would be S.A.E.30
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Amir Jetha
Experienced User
Username: amirjetha

Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 - 04:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi all - just wanted to give you an update..seem to have solved the steering shake problem with a combination of dynamic wheel balancing and higher tyre pressure. Am currently working on the hard steering. I have raised the car and tested all moving parts for wear/stickiness and have found nothing - everything seems to move quite freely. My next step is to grease the steering collumn bearings and if that fails it looks like the castor will need adjustment. Will keep you posted. Thanks for your help.. Amir
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John Dare
Prolific User
Username: jgdare

Post Number: 47
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 05 January, 2005 - 08:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you Amir. I am pleased to learn that you have solved your problem, but somewhat disappointed that so much speculation was invited simply to rectify a problem eventually found to be caused by such BASIC faults as wheel imbalance/incorrect tire pressures etc. These are issues which are usually (or should be) checked from the outset, prior to the enthusiastic advancement of any number of other possible "theories", being mindful that correct diagnosis serves to avoid or at least minimise, unwarranted repair/service costs. This is why, for example, it would be accepted, common practice (for even a local "general auto" workshop!) to check a leaking (continually) power steering rack in the FIRST instance, by elimimating the most obvious of commonly known "probable causes" such as wheel/tire imbalance etc. If they continue to leak (as many "R-R" ones inevitably do!) then one proceeds upon a journey of elimination to ultimately identify the actual causes, varied as they may be from one car to another. Ps. Are you aware of the P111(V12) engine "re-build" book; "The Forgotten Engine" by Stephen Boddice?. I can provide further details if this might be of any interest to you.
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Amir Jetha
Experienced User
Username: amirjetha

Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2005 - 02:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi John, Your point is well taken and appreciated however, I would like to point out that the final solution was arrived at from suggestions received from this forum (and I also learned a lot of other little things along the way). I have little to no experience working on this car as I recently inherited it from my father who has had it in storage for almost 20 years AND it is the only surviving P-II continental in India and one of only 2 known P-II's in India. There are no general auto workshops here that even work on cars of this genre on a regular basis, so it was up to me to figure out all of the possible issues and then begin to eliminate them in some logical manner. So, while you might consider an exercise like this to be a lot of speculation, It was a valuable learning experience for me and gave me a lot of confidence in knowing that there are people, like yourself, out there, with tremendous knowledge and a willingness to help that can be leveraged to help maintain these cars. Again, thanks for all the input I received and I will keep you posted on any further developments. About the book "The Forgotten Engine", it is about the P-III while my car is a P-II - so in case there are any parallels that can be applied to a P-II - I will be extremely interested in learning more about it and even getting my hands on one.
Amir
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John Dare
Prolific User
Username: jgdare

Post Number: 53
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2005 - 06:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you Amir. I was unaware that you did not have any professional assistance or generally experienced auto.person at hand. I now forsee even moreso, a need (long term) for you to join the U.K RREC and US RROC clubs as suggested earlier within this thread since those clubs will have several members with Phantom V12s. You have such a rare car that it deserves the best possible attention and advice. E' mail contact details for the book "The Forgotten Engine" are viz. Boddice@compuserve.com. I wish you good luck with your extraordinarily fine car. As an aside, I believe that at this current time, you have additional reason to be proud of your country, which suffered 10,000 (reported) loss of life in its S.E Tamil Nadu coastal region on December 26th. Despite the enormity of this epic and unimaginable disaster, it was reported that the massive strength of your military saw Indias presence in Sri Lanka within hours of the arrival of the tsunami which devasted the whole eastern coast of your smaller (but geographically exposed) neighbour with the loss of 30,000 lives and 1 million homeless. Thank you to the Government and people of India for such an instant and critically important response.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 210
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Saturday, 08 January, 2005 - 07:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Amir.
Pleased to hear that you have progress with the dynamic part of the w/balance and tyre pressures.
This now in my veiw points to the possible tyre run out being some of the cause,i would reccomend running the car for a while and re-checking the w/balance again before correcting the tyre pressures.
Are you useing the foot operated central lubricator for some of the important working points of the car?
As we all know the Phantom 11 engine is a six cylinder.
The Phantom 111 is a 60%v12,so the forgotten engine book is not a lot of help![far from forgotten engine with my dealings of one].
Of course yours being such a rare car as it is deserves to have the correct info!

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John Dare
Prolific User
Username: jgdare

Post Number: 56
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 12 January, 2005 - 06:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you Patrick. Please do accept my belated response as I have been preoccupied in fund raising activities following the recent catastrophe that you would be aware of. I know that Amir in India certainly would be, as am I, hence my continued assistance since 27/12. Regarding your reference to a 60%("percent")V12 and the book "The Forgotten Engine", I had assumed that Amir might find such a book to be of passing "Phantom" interest, even though you dare to presume(8/1) that he may not regard it so. If I refer an SC;S/1 enthusiast to a book referencing R-R/B "SC/S" series cars (incl.their 100 percent complete 6 or 8 cyl. engines) I do not expect, mumbled mutterings that the book included a substantial reference to the later 90 DEGREE, V8 variants. I suppose it all revolves around that which one regards on balance, as being important upon the challenging and sometimes wobbly highway of life.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 223
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 14 January, 2005 - 09:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dare i say i am so pleased that every one knows what i meant by the 60% meaning 60 degree i will find out in due course how to correctly show it.
Pix remember it well never forgot.
P111

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