| Author | Message | ||
     Theo Whitmont Experienced User Username: old_mate Post Number: 51 Registered: 04-2020 |
Good Morning Gents, Looking for advice on the correct timber to use when restoring (replacing) the framing timber on the 20/25. Originally built by Martin & King, (Australia) the timberwork has all but gone the way of all flesh. Very confronting to reveal the internal destruction of the old girl - I could not have predicted the poor condition and I suspect the attendant restoration cost.  I had assumed she was built with English Ash but that turns out to be incorrect. Now I'm told its 'coachwood'. Can anyone assist with a view if this might be correct? Any other suggestions on the type of wood that might have been used? Also any thoughts on the best timber to use for the new work? I'd would prefer to match the existing timber - am open to the concept of using a different timber if there is a benefit that would outweigh such a deviation. Thanks to all who continue to provide guidance and the benefit of their experience. Please note I am in Sydney Australia. And some gruesome photos for your lockdown viewing pleasure.   Can't fault the use of Steel Wool and the ancient art of Bog. Sigh. Thanks again in advance. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3977 Registered: 04-2003 |
Theo, My grandfather was a coach builder trained in the UK and came to Australia just before WW1 and then worked in Australia and New Zealand building horse drawn then motor ambulance bodies for WW1. He then relocated to Lismore NSW and set up a very successful motor body building business specialising in truck and bus bodies. Unfortunately he died aged 35 and my Uncle took over the business until he retired in the 1980's. He would have been the ideal person to advise on which timber to use. You might find the link below useful - it seems Tasmanian Oak and Mountain Ash are commonly used by restoration coachbuilders. The use of marine ply is an interesting alternative. In either case, I would suggest consideration be given to the use of suitable timber preservatives on the replacement woodwork. https://www.hcvc.com.au/forum/restore/3207-timber-framed-cab https://ezinearticles.com/?Timber-and-Its-Use-in-Commercial-Truck-Construction&id=6316620 I will see if I can find a local timber specialist here on the Mid-North Coast as there is still a local timber industry functioning here and I expect there are local businesses making use of this timber. This area was renowned a century and longer ago for its Cedar and furniture timbers. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3978 Registered: 04-2003 |
Some more links that might be of interest: https://the-shed.nz/home/2019/3/5/the-art-of-coachbuilding http://www.svcr.com.au/timber-frame-repair-and-manufacturing http://morganrebuild.co.uk/AshFrame.html Note the reference to Cuprisol preservative in the Morgan link; Morgan would, by far and away, be fully up-to-date on wood bodywork. I think this is a typographical error and they are referring to Cuprinol which I have used with good results on outdoor H3 treated pine when I couldn't get H4 for use in wet locations. https://www.cuprinol.co.uk/faq/index.jsp . | ||
| Jim Walters Frequent User Username: jim_walters Post Number: 343 Registered: 01-2014 |
Having built many bodies myself over the past forty years or so mostly on Morgans but also for 30's Aston and Lagonda white ash is the wood to use. Oak is too brittle. Coat with Cuprinol or any copper naphthenate preservative then paint with a couple coats of black enamel paint to seal it from moisture. SRH8505 SRC18015 SRE22493 NAC-05370 www.bristolmotors.com | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3979 Registered: 04-2003 |
Thanks Jim - if anyone can make a wooden body in modern times, it would have to be Morgan as I presume they still employ traditional coach builders and maintain the skills of the past. I remember watching my Uncle build bus and truck bodies by hand and his skills had to be seen to be believed using traditional hand tools. He always said power tools were too brutal and there was no comparison to using hand tools and feeling the timber respond to his touch. He also said he could never match his father's skill in fine coachwork which he gained from working as a coach builder at Humber in Coventry from the late 1890's to 1912/1913 when he left to emigrate to Australia. | ||
| carnley3rtbtinternet.com Unregistered guest Posted From: 159.242.227.98 |
"Coachwood" Ceratopetulm Apetulum, Satin Wood Tar wood. English, Firewood. It has the lowest durability of all the Australian timbers. True Ash,beech and elm along with a lot of hard woods and the spruces (Piceas) have no natural antibiotics and are non-durable, they are also, apart from white spruce, impermeable to preservatives. The Eucalypt family contains many variations, and are called "Ash" and "Oak" and "Mahogany". (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Theo Whitmont Experienced User Username: old_mate Post Number: 52 Registered: 04-2020 |
Thanks Gents - always appreciate the brilliant knowledge amongst this group. Have a great weekend. | ||
| Theo Whitmont Experienced User Username: old_mate Post Number: 54 Registered: 04-2020 |
UPDATE: The Coachwood has been sourced and delivered and work has begun. Photos of the decimated frame are too sad to post. The job stretches out before me and like covid, seems both unending & insurmountable. Never mind, we will prevail.....albeit a little lighter in the wallet. Please dont say 'told you so' - Its redundant!  | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 275 Registered: 07-2018 |
So what kind of wood did you go with ? I went through the thread and I didn't see where you may have mentioned it. Moderator Comment: Jeff, he did mention the timber; it is "Coachwood", an Australian timber named after its main use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceratopetalum_apetalum  | ||
| ChristopherCarnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 159.242.227.135 |
Theo, You should have the wooden frame painted with several coats of oil paint to stop the wet getting in, after all the joints have been cut. Use Gorilla Glue to fix the joints and steel cover plates. Hide (animal) glue and PVA are not suitable. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3998 Registered: 04-2003 |
Moderator Information: Christopher Carnley sent me the following comment and photograph to post on his behalf: We would like to see the frame in its deteriorated state. A friend of mine in Herefordshire is building a Vanden Plas style dhc body on a Derby Bentley Chassis, for a guy who is local to me. He started with the American white ash, band sawed it, sanded it, and is now stitching the hood with double duck. Will send a compilation of pictures.  | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 102 Registered: 02-2015 |
My 1938 Rolls-Royce Wraith WXA68 was restored by Geoff Smedley in Launceston in 1984. In his autobiography, Geoff mentioned that he replaced 70% of the timber (ie in the frame) with huon pine. It is a pity that he didn't have to replace all the timber, as huon pine does not rot. The parts of the huon pine frame that are visible when the carpet is lifted are in immaculate condition, and will be like that forever. Perhaps the next custodian of WXA68 will replace the remaining 30% of the frame with huon pine. Maybe if people are looking for the ultimate framing material, the rare and expensive huon pine could be an option. | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 278 Registered: 07-2018 |
This is interesting. I wonder if it's similar to Teak, but Teak does rot, but not in the normal way, it just keeps turning grey and then you sand that off, and a new grey layer appears. Pretty soon there's nothing left. The longer the grey is left, the deeper the grey is and more is removed. This is my experience from doing wood on a Yacht once that was severely neglected. https://www.australianwoodwork.com.au/blogs/news/what-is-so-special-about-huon-pine . | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3196 Registered: 06-2009 |
Purists, avert your eyes. I'm just curious if any niche industry may exist for something like carbon fiber replacement of wood frames? There has got to be something other than wood, any wood, that can be engineered to have similar characteristics, be able to be made into the necessary shapes, and not rot. Brian | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 280 Registered: 07-2018 |
Carbon fibre would be incredibly expensive and very labour intensive. With todays modern glues and sealing technology, is it even an issue anymore ? I would also like to think that a car with a wood frame would be looked after with more care then they were. In the 50's to the 70's most of these coach built cars were not treated with much respect and kept in places where the moisture got to them and even worse, driven in rain and snow on a routine bases and then not allowed to dry out. I would think the occasional wet drive on a club meet isn't going to hurt things, as long as they are kept in a heated garage. Neglect is the enemy here, not the wooded frame under the coach work. Anyone who can't properly look after one of these cars, shouldn't be allowed to own one, they are not modern cars that can be parked out on the street year round. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3197 Registered: 06-2009 |
Jeff, I would think that with modern pressure treatments, anti-rot treatments, glues and sealing technologies the issues with wood would be far less common than they were in the past. But I also believe that wood for car frames is an anachronism that deserves to become a thing of the past. There have simply got to be better options that still retain "the flex character" of wood (if one actually is seeking that). But even using wood now is not the same as using wood then. And, as an aside, I have yet to see a vehicle that can't, somehow, somewhere manage to "lock water in" once it seeps into certain places as water for far longer than it took to get in in the first place. That's why I'm not a fan of the idea of using wood now just because it was the material of choice in earlier eras. If the ultimate goal is to keep these cars going for literally as long as possible, then certain updates are not, to me, verboten. But, as I have already stated, I have never been a purist, either. Brian | ||
| Theo Whitmont Experienced User Username: old_mate Post Number: 55 Registered: 04-2020 |
At the request of those who wish to see Gore (not the Moderator!!)       Let me know if you want more..... They re unedning! | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3999 Registered: 04-2003 |
Theo, Have you any ideas on why the deterioration occurred to this extent? My grandfather would be "turning in his grave" if he had been the original coachbuilder. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3198 Registered: 06-2009 |
I'm guessing this car, at one point in its long life, was in "field storage." That is, parked in the middle of a field somewhere. That looks like the damage from a lot of water over a lot of time just sitting in the elements. Even the edges of the dash wood look like they waterlogged. Brian P.S. Thanks for the pictures. These always prove instructive, particularly for anyone else later faced with a similar undertaking. | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 281 Registered: 07-2018 |
Agree with Brian. I did some work on a Locomobile once on the rag top frame, same thing. It wasn't really rotted right through, so not bad enough to replace the whole lot, but it wouldn't take a screw. The ragtop frame on the Locomobile was made from ash, I replaced sections as needed and laminated strips where the bows were using epoxy. In your case, bad spots could be replaced in section using scarf joints, finger joints or butter-box. Places that are not so bad, I would drill out the rotted area and cut dowels with the grain running across the diameter, so it will hold a screw. People make the mistake of just using off-the-shelf dowel, but that is end grain and the screws won't hold. Deeper cracks that are still sound can be filled with a 24 hour two part epoxy resin with a syringe. Warm up the epoxy so it will be thin enough to flow. Don't use water based wood glue, it dries too fast and is susceptible to moisture. | ||
| ChristopherCarnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 109.156.245.254 |
"Coachwood" is non-durable and has a maximum life of 7 years before decay takes over. It should only be used for internal furnishings, like Court Rooms. Of course, it is light, plentiful, easily worked and at one time, inexpensive. All timber to a greater or less extent is hygroscopic, ie it absorbs moisture from the air, and along with the wet it draws in microbes and fungi. The best all round Australian timber for "durable" coachwork is Spotted Gum. "Huon" , not a "pine", is now protected, and only cut and lying timber remains for use. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Theo Whitmont Experienced User Username: old_mate Post Number: 57 Registered: 04-2020 |
Brian - sadly I have no idea how the car got to this sorry point. It was purchased by my grandfather in '72? I have no knowledge of where it was stored prior. It did spent about 20 years in a dank garage but not in the open air. It was occasionally driven during that time but neglect was the key operative for those years. I have some happy snaps to post of the progress but hasten to add that they are WIP. All work will be finished with rust guard (it turns out they have a product suitable for timber). Joins to be glued with sicaflex. | ||
| Theo Whitmont Experienced User Username: old_mate Post Number: 58 Registered: 04-2020 |
 I suspect she may have been a submarine in a former life!  The ravages of time.  Doing the Jig. A dance for old folk.  Joint joy  Getting there. | ||
| Randy Roberson Frequent User Username: wascator Post Number: 857 Registered: 05-2009 |
Great photos! Actually, we need to see the gore, enough to get over the initial shock and so get on to the task of repair and restoration. When we are too shocked to move forward, we walk away and the car is left to its fate. Imagine the trauma surgeon who must overcome shocking scenes to enable the patient to survive and be restored as closely to original health and function as possible. Chin up! Confidence! | ||
| Jason Watson Frequent User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 235 Registered: 07-2023 |
Hows the wood work and rebuild Theo? I am looking into a 39 Wraith and doing homework on what I'm looking at before looking at the car. This tread opens a can of worm on top of the other issues the car has. To anyone with a wooden frame, and an advancement on what Brian suggested for alternatives. I'm wondering if it be probable to remove a piece, or section and have them 3D scanned. Alternatively, pending access this may even be possible in car from what I have seen. From those scans it may be possible to get them 3D printed if a suitable base can be decided. Or those scans turned into billeted alloy or laser cut alloy or steel to substitute the wood. I have been told a story from Porsche circles of a guy who 3D prints some rare and exotic Porsche block in alloy. Of course it cost a bomb but the principals remain. Has anyone heard of a possible company venturing into the above practices to cater for coach work restoration? |
