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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 986
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 27 June, 2018 - 09:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My Ford Falcon Panel Van has a reconditioned alternator fitted but its not charging the battery.

An auto electrician has informed me that the alternator dash light has to be wired up because its the bulb that excites the alternator diodes and if the diodes are not excited then the alternator will not charge the battery.

So my question is should the bulb be wired up between the "D+" terminal on the back of the alternator and the live wire on the ignition switch?
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2946
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 27 June, 2018 - 09:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir,

What model year is your Falcon van? The wiring depends on what alternator was originally fitted and what model alternator you are using as a replacement.

I have heard of this wiring configuration but not certain which alternators and vehicle model years it applies to.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2948
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 27 June, 2018 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir,

This is the best I can do for you - be careful with the connections, if you get them wrong, you will destroy the inbuilt voltage regulator. The field excitation initially comes through the warning light from the battery and the warning light goes off when the current reverses once the alternator begins charging.

This is how it is supposed to work but I cannot find a reference to a D+ terminal in the available diagrams so be very careful.................

diagram

P.S. My apologies as I accidentally deleted your reply when posting this diagram.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 989
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 27 June, 2018 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for you diagrams David. The model is 1990 XF Ford Falcon Panel Van running 250 cross flow 6 in line engine.
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 825
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Thursday, 28 June, 2018 - 01:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir,

There are sold so called one wire or self exciting alternators. You rev the motor and after a certain RPM she starts charging

The secret.

They are all basically self exciting. My lotus I removed the charge light, blip it to 1500 and it charges. 81 rabbit, start car no charging, blip it to 1500 and it charges away. Grey mini, same thinh, etc.

I often skip that charging light for simplicity sake and I run ammeters on everything. ( except Royce and my wife's mazda 3)

Id start the car, rev it to 2k for a second and measure the voltage. If you get 12v or less at the battery. . , alternator time.
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 826
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Thursday, 28 June, 2018 - 01:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Also, the way those charge lights work is keyed 12v+ from the ignition through the light ( the socked is special with a dedicated ground wire) the light grounds to the alyernator.

When the alternator is producing less electricity than the battery ( it's dead for instance) the 12v goes from the switch to the alternator and the bulb lights just like it will when the engine isnt turning.

When the alternator is working, the wire is 12v+ and that being the same going to the bulb there is no current flow 12v+ to 12v+ = no light.

Writing this reminds me why I dislike charge indicators. You
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Mark Luft
Prolific User
Username: bentleyman1993

Post Number: 194
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Thursday, 28 June, 2018 - 02:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vlad, try taping a picture of a voluptuous naked woman to the underside of the Falcon's bonnet. close bonnet. THAT should excite your diodes.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 991
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Thursday, 28 June, 2018 - 08:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ross, tested the alternator at 2,000 rpm. It reads 12.46 Volts with lights off and 12.14 volts with lights on. According to a workshop manual I have on an earlier model Falcon that uses the same engine the charging rate should be 13.6 volts at 2,000 rpm so definitely I have a charging problem.

I am sceptical that this is a self charging alternator that can charge without the idiot light. The alternator was overhauled by an auto electrican not too long ago. I could be totally wrong of course but I am going to try to get that light working.

What I have been doing is swapping batteries. I always recharge the battery before my 250 kilometer grocery shopping run every fortnight. I carry a spare battery with me. But really I need to fix this charging circuit.

Mark nice idea about the voluptuous woman but there are two problems. First unless she was as big as my cat, she is not going to fit under the bonnet. Secondly, Australia has just removed a man's right to cross examine a women in court where the women raises allegations of domestic violence.

Ergo once the female raises an allegation of domestic violence, the court will issue a restraining order and you get kicked out of your own property. Australia is very fast becoming a very dangerous and undemocratic unjust society for men.

If you have a woman here you had better keep here bloody happy or you are going to homeless and pennyless very fast.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2950
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 28 June, 2018 - 09:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir,

Did your alternator overhaul include a new regulator?

If yes, the alternator may have been incorrectly wired on first installation and this WILL immediately destroy the regulator. No ifs and no buts .

If no, any charging problems should have been evident when the auto electrician tested the alternator after overhaul. I also assume ALL the diodes were replaced during the overhaul.

My past XF Falcon S Pack Manual charging voltages were in the range 13.9 to 14.2 Volts at idle.

Hope my fears of a regulator catastrophe are not confirmed.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 993
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Thursday, 28 June, 2018 - 09:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well David, anything is possible. What I have is a second overhauled alternator so I could put that on the car and test again.

Sparkys do make mistakes like us all. I will keep you posted - but remember the Pano cannot die. It now sports a Russian Lada Niva front indicator assembly made out of diecast and cable tied to the bullbar.

When I drove up to the policeman at the road block the other day he didn't even give it a second look!
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2952
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 28 June, 2018 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"When I drove up to the policeman at the road block the other day he didn't even give it a second look!"

Congratulations Vladimir, you have achieved what I always considered impossible; giving a Queensland copper common sense and possibly a sense of humour as well!!!!!!

.
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 830
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Thursday, 28 June, 2018 - 10:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

12.4 is weak sauce, sound like you lost a coil.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 994
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Thursday, 28 June, 2018 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well David I really think that up here the police are not worried too much about vehicle trivialities. They have much bigger worries as they have caused a large weed drought by invading many homes and snatching the weed.

The result of this is that we now have a thundering ice (methamphetamine) problem. Personally, I think you have to be quite crazy to use ice but there a lot of people up here who are doing it very hard after the coal industry died.

I feel sorry for the police who are being forced by the police force to go around by themselves (single cops in a patrol car) attempting to keep the peace. Tackling loons with a head full of ice in a psychotic episode is extremely dangerous work. Put simply I would not like to be a Queensland copper at the moment.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 996
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Friday, 29 June, 2018 - 03:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi All, well finally sorted the charging problem. The first reconditioned alternator is not working.

So I installed the second reconditioned alternator and found this on the internet which matched up to what I could observe:

Battery light circuit goes from D+ terminal on back of alternator to live wire coming from ignition switch when ignition is on. B+ terminal is wired to positive terminal on the battery and body of alternator is grounded.

Charging at 13.7 volts at idle and 14.2 volts at 2000 rpm.

Both the manual I have on the earlier model car running the same cross flow 250 6 cylinder and all wiring diagrams proved to be useless as none showed which wires should go where on the alternator.

Very rarely have I ever found wiring diagrams to be useful. I find them hopelessly frustrating and have to read them with a magnifying glass!

So now I have an idiot light working that goes out as soon as the engine starts.

The wiring on the car is in a hopeless mess - so much so that it is scary. Another thing that is scary is manufacturers that make wiring looms which have a heap of multipin plugs that don't plug into anything at all.

Something about electrical work drives me nuts and I feel like killing the cat until I finally nut out the problem.

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