| Author | Message | ||
     Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1193 Registered: 9-2004 |
The latest on the Ismay Titanic events sinking if true is not so good. Setting sail with the fire out of control in one of the storage bunkers. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2500 Registered: 4-2003 |
Patrick L, I have read this claim in the past - the presumed cause would have been spontaneous combustion before or after the coal was loaded into the bunkers. As I understand, this was not unusual in the coal-fired era and the procedures for controlling fires of this type would have common knowledge in the stoke holds and boiler rooms. I am not aware of visible signs of an on-board fire being seen in the submersible video footage of the actual wreck. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1313 Registered: 4-2016 |
David is spot on. These types of fires during and after bunkering were common place. In the sealed coal bunker, it was'nt a fire as such, it was more like smouldering coal much like heat beads, as there was no draft to induce a raging fire like a fire place or the Scotch boilers as fitted to the Olympic class ships of which the Titanic was the middle of 3 sisters. It just made it difficult for the Trimmers (trimming the ballast which coal was in as ship) as of course they wanted to empty the effected bunker first. As there was a coal strike at the time, White Star Line paid labourers to hand shovel over 12,000 tons of coal from other WSL ships laid up in Southampton due to the strike to ensure the "biggest ship in the world" didn't miss it's departure time. The Titanic had coal loaded from at least four other ships ready for her departure. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1196 Registered: 9-2004 |
Patrick David. The recent find of photos of the departure of the ship have shown the darkened hull above the water line in a position of one of the bunkers now also a weak part of the hull due to heat. Story goes that it was so serious that the ship would have to keep a fast speed at say 25 knots knowing they were in the position of icebergs as the slowing down would cause a shortage of coal for the ship to complete it's journey. There is also now the question of a telegram sent by Ismay but signed in reverse as Yamsi! The plot thickens. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1316 Registered: 4-2016 |
Patrick. YAMSI was the common telegraph, telegram, wireless signature J Bruce Ismay always used, and had done so since his early years of communication and his position at the top of WSL. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1317 Registered: 4-2016 |
Maybe David can start a whole new thread in Idler Chatter and transfer the Titanic chat over to that if people would like to discuss this further? Your wish is my command........done! | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2503 Registered: 4-2003 |
Patrick L, Do you have the links for the new photos and the Ismay telegram? Very interested in this new information as the hot/warm hull plates would not have been susceptible to brittle fracture during iceberg impact. This brittle fracture is considered to be the reason the ship sank as too many of the "water proof" compartments were compromised by the hull plates cracking during the "scrape" of the iceberg along the side of the ship compounded by the fact all of the compartments were not fitted with sealable tops. Some years ago, there was TV documentary covering metallurgical testing of plate samples from plates identical to those used in the building of the "Titanic" and these confirmed the ductile/brittle transition temperature was considerably higher than the actual temperature of the ship hull plates immersed in ice-cold seawater and this explained why the hull was breached so easily during what otherwise was a relatively mild impact. This brittle fracture behaviour was later experienced in WW2 with hull cracking of the American Liberty ships operating in cold water especially the Arctic convoys to Russia. This was a direct result of inappropriate material selection for the hull plates as the real reason the "Titanic" sank had not been discovered at the time the Liberty ships were designed. The real reason for the "Titanic" sinking only came about as a consequence of the later Liberty ship investigations which revealed the ductile/brittle transition temperature being the problem. This finding became a compulsory inclusion in Metallurgy courses and this subsequently provoked a researcher to obtain and test the type of metal used in Titanic's hull plates to see if this behaviour would explain why the damage resulted in the sinking which we now know proved to be the case. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1321 Registered: 4-2016 |
Thanks David, You're the MAN! | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1201 Registered: 9-2004 |
David interesting, there was mention of sub standard range of materials that I thought was a factor with the heat effect! The photo's were found in the attic belonging to the Titanic's chief electrical engineer, John Kempster. They had been stored in an attic for over 100 years. The photos show the launch of the ship and hold clues to the impending disaster. I thought it was of interest, the programme was on the TV [but what channel] a few days ago, will find out more. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1202 Registered: 9-2004 |
David, found a link looks as though it is old news in January! Interesting: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/03/world/europe/titanic-coal-fire-iceberg.html?_r=0 | ||
| Alan Ford Prolific User Username: herne13 Post Number: 180 Registered: 8-2016 |
The one startling new discovery about the Titanic is that the swimming pool was discovered to be still full of water. ;) | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2505 Registered: 4-2003 |
Alan, Surely you mean the "Plunge Bath" which was located inside the ship and not outside in the open air. This designation IMHO was to convey the impression of a European spa rather than a swimming pool to potential future passengers. The "Titanic" was one of the first ships to be fitted with a public bathing facility on board. No doubt, class distinctions would have applied to who could use the facility. I doubt the Second and Third Class passengers used the facility..... | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2506 Registered: 4-2003 |
Patrick L, About the time the film "Titanic" was released, the "National Geographic" magazine published an article based on the images of the wreck taken by the remote control submersible and the later manned submersible which included a composite drawing based on these images which may or may not show the gash in the hull from the iceberg - my memory is vague as it has been sometime since I last viewed the article. I will try and find this article over the next few days as a copy should be in my archives here in Sydney. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2507 Registered: 4-2003 |
If anyone is interested in the Liberty Ship problem, the following link gives a non-technical description of the cracking causes and preventative measures subsequently implemented: https://metallurgyandmaterials.wordpress.com/2015/12/25/liberty-ship-failures/ | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1203 Registered: 9-2004 |
I am sure that a teapot was found still full up with some coke steam. The link to the TV doc that I must have seen: http://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwtv/article/Smithsonian-Channel-to-Premiere-Documentary-TITANIC-NEW-EVIDENCE-121-20170118 | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1365 Registered: 5-2015 |
The official account of the accident is probably correct and all the conspiracy theories are not true. Marine accidents are usually a series of insignificant events that come together to a "perfect storm" and an accident all in slow motion. Question: If another ship was sighted on the horizon ( 14-15 miles) then why didnt the Titanic sail towards the ship whilst the engines were still working If one is 6ft tall then when standing at the water line the horizon is 3 miles away. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1366 Registered: 5-2015 |
check out the film "A Night To Remember" Its an account of the Titanic accident starring Kenneth More playing Lightoller the first officer. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2508 Registered: 4-2003 |
Robert, The ship was the "Carpathia" which was stationary with all lights on and the entire crew including the wireless operator safely tucked in bed due to the presence of icebergs. The "Titanic" could not move closer as Captain Smith was probably aware of the extent of damage shortly afterwards and the fact any forward motion would increase the rate of water entry. As an aside, one of my grand-parent's neighbours in Newcastle was a young girl on the ship who was in one of the lifeboats with her mother and survived, her father drowned. She would not talk about her experience as the memories were still too traumatic 50 years later. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1324 Registered: 4-2016 |
Gents, I agree with Robert. The list of insignificant events for the Titanic to end up leaving when she did, is quite large. However the 2 most important events that resulted in the date & time she sailed from Southampton on April 10 was: (1) The collision of the RMS Olympic & the HMS Hawk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHHHGkGR0no This happened on September 20 1911. The original maiden voyage was March 20 1912. This was delayed due to the Titanic having her Starboard wing propeller & prop shaft robbed to replace the Olympics Damaged items due to the incident with the Hawk. (2) The 1912 Coal Strike I mentioned earlier. In the new deep ocaean dock specially constructed for the Olympic Class ships (Olympic, Titanic & Britannic) there were many laid up ships due to this strike. Some were double & even triple docked around the port of Southampton. Here is what the dock looked like on the day of the Titanic's sailing, and the events that unfolded on the day resulting in a spectator being killed by a snapped hawser.  The below image shows how close the New York came to colliding with the Titanic before the tugs could get a line to her.  Below is the result of the Titanic after being put astern so the New York could be pulled around the corner & tied up.  These images were taken by Father Brown who boarded at Southampton & disembarked at Queenstown Ireland. Her last port & the last time she was photographed. His book is very good, and a great source of reference for anyone interested in the Titanic. His images are the only images of the maiden voyage to survive. This then put back the sailing by 1 whole hour. In effect, the Titanic would have been 1 hour ahead, thus 1 hour past the collision with the iceberg. Not to mention the 20 or so days the Hawk incident incurred. David: The ship on the Horizon (but this is still in dispute till this day) was the Leyland Liner SS Californian, not the Cunard liner RMS Carpathia. The Marconi operator was Cyril Evans. He was asleep as at the time most ships did not have a 24 hour wireless operation. The Carpathia was over 58 nautical miles away. These are but 2 events that resulted in the collision of the RMS Titanic and the Iceberg at 11:40pm April 14 1912. There are also many more contributing factors. David: The steel quality is another myth that has also not been proven. At the time Harland & Wolff was still experimenting with making ships from steel instead of iron. The science that went into this new alloy was more alchemy than chemistry. The "Big piece" of the Titanic that was recovered and tested showed inconsistency of the dispersion of molecules in the steel, but not to the extent where it would be affected due to cold temperatures. http://shipwrecking.tumblr.com/post/8124976454/magnificenttitanic-the-big-piece-is-a-15-ton I always show this image to people when they say the Titanic was made from inferior or brittle steel.  Both the Titanic & her sister being built side by side using the same steel. The Olympic lived a full life from 1911 to 1935 (would have been longer if not for the depression) after WWI (where she served famously) she was even found with 15 inch round dents in her hull plates, which were from un detonated German torpedos. It seemed she was AS lucky as the Titanic was UN lucky. Lastly, The actual collision with the iceberg would have damaged ANY ship. Some not mortally due to naval design requirements (ask me about this if you would like to know more), but significantly yes.  The Titanic was in effect 66,000 tons (displacement) the iceberg was millions of tons the so called immoveable object. Buckling hull plates, sheering rivet heads off as it hopped along the vertical ribs of the hull beneath the 3/4 inch hull plates that were fitted in the lower half of the ship. It is as simple as that. No conspiracy, no poor quality construction. Why the ship was traveling so fast at the time is for another discussion. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1368 Registered: 5-2015 |
another factor was that the Titanic's rudder was a bit to small and the ship turned slowly as a result. The other day I was reading about a performance car that hit a tree. The comments theorized that the car must have been doing more than the 50mph speed limit because of the amount of damage. If a car hits a tree at even 10mph the damage would be bad. A bit like the titanic hitting an immovable object. Damage was bound to be serious. Bulks of wood like railway sleepers in habours can do a surprising amount of damage to a hull and can sink smaller craft. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2509 Registered: 4-2003 |
Patrick R, You are right - it was the "Californian" and not the "Carpathia", I wrote this in great haste as I had to leave home earlier than usual this morning and switched the names. I will try and find the original technical report on the testing of the "Titanic" hull plates - it is more detailed and goes further into the testing than the chemical analysis/metallographic tests referred to in your link. The testing for ductile/brittle transition temperature involves a large number of Izod/Charpy test pieces cooled and stabilised over a wide temperature range before subjecting them to impact from a finely calibrated swing hammer recording the energy absorbtion by the position of "tell-tale" needle pushed by the hammer on a calibrated scale following impact with the test piece. I would disagree the iron and steel making practice was "more alchemy than chemistry" at the time the Titanic was built. The main deficiency was the lack of knowledge about the existence of a "ductile/brittle fracture transition temperature" which derived from the method of manufacture, alloy content and heat treatment which was not discovered until the Liberty Ship cracking problem in WW2 and subsequently eliminated by appropriate changes to the specification, manufacture and processing/fabrication of both iron and steel components. It is my understanding the reason the ship was travelling at speed at night reportedly was the insistence of the owners that the ship establish a new record for crossing the Atlantic [the famous "Blue Riband"] on its maiden voyage for publicity purposes and this was under threat from an earlier course deviation following the initial ice warnings. I find the statement "the damage consisted of six narrow openings in the front of the hull covering only about 1.2 square metres in total" very difficult to believe as an opening of this area would have taken many hours or even days to admit enough water to bring the head of the ship sufficiently down for the water inside the hull to overtop the bulkheads causing the ship to founder. The speed the ship went down after the iceberg collision suggests a very large quantity of water entered the hull in a very short time after the collision. As the contemporary reports do not refer to substantial hull damage/distortion being evident after the collision [refer damage to HMAS Melbourne after the collision with HMAS Voyager as an example of how much visible damage results from a major collision at sea], the most plausible explanation IMHO for the rapid sinking of the Titanic is large area openings arising from extensive brittle cracking and subsequent separation of the hull plates. If the hull damage was caused by ductile fracture and the area of damage was as quoted, the ship would have remained afloat till long after daybreak allowing rescue ships to be summonsed by wireless. It is also probable enough boilers would have remained in service to provide steam to the bilge pumps to help keep the ship afloat. The speed with which the ship went down suggests quick catastrophic hull failure occurred and brittle fracture is now accepted to be a plausible reason for failures of this nature more so when service temperatures around freezing point are involved. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1334 Registered: 4-2016 |
David, I will leave the metallurgy discussion alone, as I do not have the knowledge you have to comment. In regards to speed: The Olympic class ships were never considered at any stage to be "greyhounds of the North Atlantic" Their design was based around size, comfort, opulence & economy. Their twin 4 cylinder, triple expansion reciprocating engines that were hooked to the wing screws (triple screws on this class of ship), that exhausted low pressure steam into a new type of steam turbine connected to the middle screw was revolutionary at the time. 15,000 shaft horse power for free, this steam would have been consigned to the condensers in any other type of steam system. WSL, dropped the race for the "Blue Riband" when their liner RMS Teutonic captured this accolade in 1891. WSL said for every 1 knot of speed extra required for this performance, it would add 100,000 British Pounds to the cost. Money they spent wisely elsewhere. Thus the Olympic class ships had an "emergency Speed" (Flank speed today) of only 23 knots, with a top cruising speed of 21 knots. These ships were never in the run to capture any speed records. However what J Bruce Ismay "wanted" to beat was the record set by the Titanic's older Sister RMS Olympic. Just an accolade that the biggest ship in the world, was also the companies fastest. The "suggestion" was passed onto Captain Smith which he diligently passed onto the First Officer to "light the remaining boilers" to get into New York by sunrise. Only one course deviation was done to head slightly further south before "turning the corner" for their final run to New York to avoid ice, noted in the ice warning delivered to Captain Smith by the Marconi operator. This ice warning was in the pocket of J Bruce Ismay, before being posted in the bridge later that night. All other ice warnings were consigned to the spike of the Marconi room as the operators were busy sending and receiving private messages for passengers. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1335 Registered: 4-2016 |
Alan, I have a tile from the floor of the Titanic's Sister the Olympic's swimming pool. These were octagonal porcelain tiles made by Villeroy & Boch. It is one of my prized possessions. Right again Robert. H&W were still using an un balanced type of rudder that was a carry over from the sailing ship days. Other ships that were designed with Admiralty specifications included. The steam ship companies allowed these design inclusions, as the admiralty then contributed to their building & running. In case of conflict, these ships could be commandeered by the Navy, and will have already had basic admiralty designs included. Olympic Class rudder.  Lusitania fully balanced rudder. Note the screws are in line with the main bulk of the rudder surface. The Olympic class is clearly not.  I find the fire story interesting, however it was no where near the bulk of the damage The damage was reported by the carpenter, when Captain Smith sent him down to "sound" the ship that it has just protruded into boiler room 5, (bulkhead E in the image below) which the coal bunker bulkheads for and aft of this. The reports do not say what bunker or boiler room was affected.  One of the main admiralty designs inclusions was a water tight, inner hull skin that extended to above the water line. The Olympic & Titanic did not have this. They only had the double bottom that was a design rule for any ship of the day. After the tragedy, the Olympic was taken back to Harland & Wolff and literally opened up and an inner watertight skin was put in place. The 3rd sister the Britannic, had this done while she was still on the building stocks at H&W. I will be very interested to see the fire images rescued from the attic, as I have never seen these before. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1336 Registered: 4-2016 |
I have spent most of the morning reading about the bunker fire. This is the dumbest thing I have read, and clearly indicates that these idiots, will jump onto anything they can for publicity. "He said his investigations suggest that workers in the boiler room may have been trying to clear the burning coal bunker -- and that the only place to put the coal was in the ship's furnaces, which would have made Titanic steam on at a higher speed" The boilers produced steam, NOTHING ELSE. The revolutions of the screws set by Chief Engineer is how the ships speed is attained. If an excess head of steam is produced, it is blown off through the vents at the top of the funnels as seen/heard in the movie. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2510 Registered: 4-2003 |
Patricks R and L, Here is the "National Geographic" article including the wreck images that I referred to in an earlier post: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2012/04/titanic-shipwreck-revealed-complete-mosaic-images/ I have the April 2012 edition in my digital set of 125 years of N.G.magazines from 1888 to December 2012 - my problem is insufficient free space on my laptop hard drive to extract and open the files. I will get an external hard drive over the weekend to solve this problem as I need all files downloaded to search the archives by key words. The N.G. website only allows you to browse one item before locking up and requiring a subscription for further access. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1217 Registered: 9-2004 |
David thanks for the link most interesting. The comment at the end is what I must have seen discussed on the TV program. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2513 Registered: 4-2003 |
For anyone in Sydney interested in seeing the props and sets used during filming of the movie "Titanic", an exhibition has just opened in the Byron Kennedy Hall at Fox Studios in Moore Park: http://www.titanictheexhibition.com.au/ * | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1362 Registered: 4-2016 |
Thanks for your 2 links David, Interesting stuff indeed. The wife & I will be going to that exhibition for sure. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1376 Registered: 5-2015 |
My friend who is ex seaman told me of a perfect storm type accident on a bulk carrier. The ship was not well maintained and the air starter for the engine was temperamental and the engineer couldn't be bothered to fix it properly. Coming into port an unusual combination of weather tide current and wind and excess speed caused the ship to hit the jetty at about 5mph which is a lot of energy. A ship moored on the other side of the jetty got damaged and the jetty collapsed no one got killed. The capt ordered astern but the airstarter went pear shaped and the ship got out of control with no engine. The capt and engineer got sacked. Big ships are not that manovarable and are easy to lose control of in confined areas. A bit like the accident at Southampton with the HMS ship. the Titanic accident was a watershed in the history of marine safety. Rogue waves my mate said these do exist and has seen them and they just appear from nowhere 80ft high wall of green water with a trough in front and behind. On You tube are ships with holes in them the size of double decker buses. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2525 Registered: 4-2003 |
Would you take the risk and put down a deposit on the following commercial venture? Also relevant would be the cost of travel insurance to cover the costs incurred if the venture did not proceed and the promoters go into liquidation. http://www.traveller.com.au/titanic-wreck-expedition-to-take-tourists-to-sunken-ship-for-first-time-gvm2aw The temptation might be irresistible to enough people for the money to be paid and the venture proceed. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1418 Registered: 4-2016 |
Yep, I would do it in a heartbeat. | ||
| Mark Luft Frequent User Username: bentleyman1993 Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2016 |
Yes David, I would too in a heartbeat. |
