| Author | Message | ||
     Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 311 Registered: 2-2013 |
I have just joined a Jaguar forum and searched Jaguar 420G and found a whole lot of very good photos of a 420G is spectacular condition and what's more is the foul Englishman who owns it took a photo of it showing his 1962 E-type convertible in the garage. Rotter! And on top of that he bought the 420G in New Zealand. So here they come the northern barbarians down under and in NZ too pillaging the dwindling stocks. In a fairer would they should be stopped at customs. | ||
| ChristopherCarnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 5.80.18.25 |
Foul Englishmen indeed, think about the convoys of tanks, aircraft, and arms that saved Soviet Russia, and PQ17! (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 713 Registered: 5-2015 |
It was us foul English men who made your Rolls-Royce and the Jags. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 314 Registered: 2-2013 |
The fact that the English made these Rolls Royces and Jaguars makes them even more foul and the fact they now longer make them makes them triple foul. That's three chickens buk buk begerk fowl. What could redeem them is if they could make brand new etypes, especially the 6 cyl convertibles for a price I could afford like instantly. Look if Hitler would not have been so stupid to attack the Soviet Union England would be under the sea because you would not have given up until the last man. But always remember Soviet Union was the greatest because it was bigger and better than Texas and twice the size of USA and it had a lot of vodka factories and water...ok snow and ice. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 714 Registered: 5-2015 |
Disagree. Hitler tried to invade us with a daft idea of bombing us. He couldn't have invaded because of the Royal Navy. The Royal navy would have sunk the invasion fleet. The air battle was a non starter because if damaged German aircraft crash into the British main land so if the pilot survives he's a POW. Hitler didn't understand military stuff. He was nicking money from other countries to pay for it all and pocketing a large amount money for himself. Hitler also awarded himself jobs which had government salaries. Russia was a big mistake, Napoleon made the same mistake. Declaring war on the USA was even more stupid. The Kaiser made the same mistake in WW1. He sent a telegram via Lands End in England telegraph cables to Mexico suggesting that Mexico could invade Texas and New Mexico. And of course we read it and sent it to the USA to read. The even more daft thing was thinking that the Mexican Army would succeed against the USA army. Same with Pearl Harbour. The Japanese didn't stop Pearl Habour working as a naval base and started a war that they couldn't win. At present we have these nut jobs running around Europe shooting people. We have seen it all before and we are still here. They will all end up dead or in prison, and we will bury our dead and carry on as before. Until the next lot of nutters. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 315 Registered: 2-2013 |
Are yes Bob nutters indeed. I mean really these lot are truly out there. I don't pray because I really am still Soviet Atheist but I almost did when I heard about that Russian jet. Then slowly after denials it came out about the bomb and Putin was very quiet for a while and I kind of knew he was going to snap and he has. Its a Russian thing "oh so my life is worth nothing to you -- okay then I will show you just how crazy I can be" I fear for the young conscripts. Naturally, I blame the Americans for everything but most of all because they never took these nutters out years ago. Now I fear we are on the dawn of a savage blood bath. But honestly Bob I enjoy stiring the British and once had a very lovely girlfriend from Surrey who was horrified at the way I teased her about the Royal Family. As you know the Royal Family in Russia came to a rather sticky end what what. But anyway, what excuse does Jaguar have for not making more etype convertibles? Interesting what you say about the Royal Navy. Any books on it you recommend? And Bob on a totally different angle - the Cloud convertible. Do you know of any way to get hold of the information and or drawings for the conversion from 4 door to 2 door convertible? In return I can send you some detail photos on how to build a Tsar nuke that we let off in Siberia just don't tell the Americans because they are still trying to work out where Siberia is. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1798 Registered: 4-2003 |
"Same with Pearl Harbour. The Japanese didn't stop Pearl Habour working as a naval base and started a war that they couldn't win." Bob, Maybe - but they came very close to invading Australia from New Guinea in 1942 and we were probably saved by two key elements: 1. Determined resistance by raw Australian militia defending the Kokoda Track in New Guinea - the advancing Japanese troops actually reached a position [Ioribaiwa on 16th September 1942] where they could see Port Moresby but attacks on their supply lines across the Owen Stanley mountains meant they could not proceed further as their attempts in late August to take Milne Bay to use as a supply facility had failed [one of my uncles saw active service at Milne Bay during these attacks and later elsewhere in the Pacific; another uncle was based in Darwin as an aircraft mechanic and was severely burnt rescuing a pilot from a plane shot up by a Japanese fighter whilst attempting to take off during the first bombing attack on Darwin in February 1942]. 2. General Macarthur deployed the "Red Arrow" 32nd Division US Army forces at Pongani and Buna in mid October 1942 with the 128th Infantry making the first offensive landing at Pongani on the 18th October [the future father-in-law of my US mate was seriously injured by a friendly fire incident from a US B25 bomber mistakenly bombing the landing party thinking they were Japanese troops - he was repatriated to Newcastle NSW for medical treatment where he met my mother and her girlfriend who had volunteered to visit hospitalised wounded personnel beginning a life-long friendship between our families that has continued to this day]. The raw US troops found the Japanese were formidable foes and suffered accordingly during the early stages of their involvement and quickly realised applying the advice given to them during their initial training in Australia was essential if they were to succeed in defeating the experienced battle-hardened Japanese troops. This was the beginning of the end of the Japanese invasion of New Guinea and combined with the Allied victory in the battle of the Coral Sea, the threat of invasion of Australia began to diminish from late 1942. Unfortunately for Britain, the reluctance of Churchill to commit British resources to the Far-East meant Australia had to turn to the US for help as we could not rely on the British and we withdrew our military units fighting in the Middle East to help defend Australia from the Japanese threat after the fall of Singapore in February 1942 resulted in the capture of a very large number of British and Commonwealth troops. This new reliance changed the British-Australian relationship forever as we increasingly recognised we are part of the Asia-Pacific region and not the traditional UK-Europe region. Hopefully, this very brief summary will help our overseas contributors understand the changes that have occurred in our relationship with other parts of the world post-WW2. I did a lot of research about 10 years ago on the Pongani landing for the families of my US mate and one of my most interesting discoveries was the fact that US President Franklin D Rooseveldt had secretly commissioned Adam Bruce Fahnestock later head of the US Army Small Ships Section to undertake a survey of the South Pacific not long before WW2 to chart anchorages and navigable shipping passages which later became indispensable when America entered the war. Fahnestock was on board the Australian trawler "King John" for the Pongani landing and was killed along with US war corespondent Byron Darnton during the B25 attack that injured my mate's future father-in-law. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 317 Registered: 2-2013 |
Stalin felt very stabbed in the back by Churchill when he opened his trap up in a Missouri university yapping on about the Iron Curtain decending. Ninety percent of the German Army was against the Russian Front in the Great Patriotic War and UK and USA certainly aided the Soviet Union but supplying a massive amount of weapons. Communism had to run its course. Had the west been not so paranoid about it {that is the rich who really always control a democracy and who were terrified that communism just might work} then just maybe the USA and the USSR would not have had to spend billions of dollars and billions of rubles and almost blow then entire world up a couple of times. The entire caper was about fear on both sides running amok. But what to do now with these nutters. I can't see them being anything but deranged suicidal lunatics needing immediate extermination for the good of all mankind. The question is do the politicians of today have the guts to pull it off. A war from the sky is not going to get rid of the mongrels that is for sure. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Frequent User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 81 Registered: 4-2015 |
Wishfull thinking, but Vladimir is onto something regarding a re-do of the E-Type. I had several in my college years and there has never been anything equal since. | ||
| ChristopherCarnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 5.80.53.124 |
The E Type Jaguar was the nastiest thing on 4 wheels. Noise, back jarring discomfort, rust, unpredictable road holding,difficult Moss gearbox, etc. The only redeeming feature was the phallic styling. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 875 Registered: 1-2008 |
You can have an 'old' E-Type brought, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century for a few £10s of K. It's only money. Engine and gearbox fully overhauled with turbo added for a bit more oomph, brakes replaced with some that work, suspension similarly treated, etc, etc. Top Gear did a bit on them a while back. It's called the Eagle E-Type and there are numerous clips of it on You Tube. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Frequent User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 82 Registered: 4-2015 |
Hmmm...Nasty Good! I owned my first from new in 1968. Coupe. Opalescent Blue with Black interior. Refined elegance. Smooth handling. Everything worked, naturally. Intoxicating 6cyl growl. Cruised smoothly at 100mph. In those days Nevada had no posted speed limits outside of town limits. Could come off an expressway at 80mph, rest your foot on the brakes, and they would be like suction, gently pulling the cat to a stop. Only objection was the heat from the exhaust cans radiating thru the floorboards, but in the temperate climate of coastal northern California it was rarely an issue. I'll check the recommended link. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Frequent User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2015 |
Jan... I IMMEDIATELY went to their website. You got me cooking with the allusion to "few 10s K" pounds, but you made a "typo". Sorry. It is actually "few 100s", as in about $300,000. Nice product yes, but that is what Vladimir and I were thinking of by astronomically priced. You can get a quality original for $100,000+ but even that is way too much for me. Glad I had pleasure of one in 1968 Dollars...$6,000, and 1968 gas at 21 cents/gallon! | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1014 Registered: 5-2012 |
I always preferred the handling of my XK150 to that of the E-type. The XK150 just seemed more solid on the road with easily controlled oversteer when cornering. The E-type seemed more temperamental in it's handling, skittish even. The XK was beautifully predictable, even though it had a live rear axle and leaf springs. Geoff | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Frequent User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 85 Registered: 4-2015 |
Geoff... Yes, you do have a point. I found that the XKE had an alarming tendency on cornering to lose its grip on the road and next thing you know the rear end comes around and is preceeding you down the road...a minor inconvenience that I learned to tolerate and simply didn't push corners. It was a matter of appreciating elegance over performance. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 320 Registered: 2-2013 |
This is very interesting info chaps. The only etype I have been in was a V12 manual coupe and then as a passenger. My then brother in law owned it. It was in pristine condition and he had imported it and lied like a hound to customs to avoid custom tax etc and later became a very successful but usual greedy hound of a businessman. Somebody you would immediately count your fingers if you shook his hand on a deal. The etype appeared to handle very well but screamed its front tyres off round corners. I fell in love with it but had not hope of buying it for the $11,000 he was asking in late 70s. Nobody knew then that the mongrel things would take off price wise like UFOs. I love the shape of the convertibles. But what is this about "phallic styling" Chris I just don't see cars as being anything like wedding tackle. I always thought this concept of cars being some type of sex symbol to be some type of deviate capitalistic revisionist feminazi plot for the fair sex to nail down a bigger grab of the disposable loot or at least an admission that the female had zero understanding why chaps would rather be driving or working on their cars than standing outside a dress shop while their partners drooled nonsensically through the windows at clothing items they lusted after. Do you fellow know that the female species has the ability not be content with even 800 pairs of shiny leather shoes? I like a car shape because I like a car shape not because I think that shape would impress a female. I couldn't care less what a woman thought. They make me angry when they put their posteriors even near the mudguards. I saw Prince Charles clearing one off his Aston Martin one day - the cheek of it and as for any that put their feet up on the dash board I can tell you I go from nice and polite to criminal nasty psychopathic instantaneously when that happens. It results in an instant emergency stop and believe me I have seen them tremble and they never do it again. No I want the etypes to be around $3000 AUD for the restorable ones. I could not afford a concours one now if I harvested cannabis with a tractor and as for $300,000 for an Eagle that's about $500,000 to get it here with taxes then its got to be ADR approved and the government will produce more red tape than the Kremlin could think about. But on a lighter note my SuperSoaker pump action rifle water pistol arrived the other day and I noticed that PussNasty was never on the Camargue until yesterday when she was and I ever so quietly reached into the back of the Panel Van retrieved the said weapon and shot her point blank in the face. Never seen a moggy take off so fast and I felt bloody good about it though a tad guilty through the giggles. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Frequent User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 86 Registered: 4-2015 |
Women's shoes. Reminds me of a joke. I forget names as time goes by, but many years ago when the Marcos regime ended in the Phillipines..apparently in the hastly exile, Emelda Marcos left behind an astronomically sized closet full of shoes. What was the name of the lady who took over as president? In photos she was always smiling and the joke was "Why is Madamme 'what's her name' always smiling?" to which the answer was "...because she has the same shoe size as Emelda Marcos." Hmmm...anyway, I thought it funny... | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 321 Registered: 2-2013 |
Her name was Cory Aquino. I have been to the Philippines twice and they all reckon things now are much worse than what they were under Marcos. I actually saw Imelda Marcos in New York in 1980 hoping into a large black limo. Ah the Marcos family - now they really knew how to cook the books!! | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Frequent User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 87 Registered: 4-2015 |
10-4, Vlad...yes, Corizon Aquino. Now I remember. Thanks. | ||
| ChristopherCarnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 213.122.123.201 |
The original Ford Edsel didn't appeal because the front end was the opposite of phallic, ie penis like. Most people can see the connection between that and the E Type, and the Ford Capri coupe,etc etc. Has anyone read a curious little book called "The Sex Life of the Foot and Shoe", most thought provoking. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 720 Registered: 5-2015 |
The Edsel had a bog seat for a rad grill. Old oil paintings sometimes have a violin in an open case with the bow casually laying across the violin. It was considered very risqué at the time. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 322 Registered: 2-2013 |
Bob you are just too cruel with that "bog seat" comment. You should have been on TV doing a Clive James or at least a Derek and Clive (fantastic stuff - just hate to accept those chaps have moved on) But please explain the violin case because now I am totally puzzled and any notion that I have an Irish or English genetic connection has been permanently removed. In payment I send you famous Russian Joke which few in the west get but when I was told it by a Ukranian as we fished in a Sydney river I fell on the ground in hysterical laughter. Three chaps, English, German and Russian are walking along a dirt dusty road all broke when they come upon a lamp and rub it and out comes the Genie. Right you lot, I'm the Genie and each of you has one wish only, no stuffy around. German pushes the English Man to one side and says me first " I want a Mercedes Grosser 600 with a million deutchmark in the boot Zap it appear and German drives off. English man goes next and demands a Rolls Royce convertible with a million pound it boot. Zap it appears and Englishman drives off. Genie looks at the Russian and says what do you want. Russian: " I want to see my neighbours apartment on fire!" | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1017 Registered: 5-2012 |
Vladimir I have to say that joke is completely lost on me. I've tried to figure it out, but no. A blank. Maybe you could explain it. I find cultural differences fascinating. I'm surprised Bob mentioned the violin and case. What an affront to English sensitivities. Geoff | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Frequent User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 88 Registered: 4-2015 |
Confronted with such a situation, why does no one ever ask for three wishes instead of just one? | ||
| richard george yeaman Grand Master Username: richyrich Post Number: 397 Registered: 4-2012 |
Geoff there are people in the world who could identify themselves with being like that Russian. The violin case is lost on me. Richard. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 723 Registered: 5-2015 |
The voila and violin were considered to be a feminine shape. The open voilin case was sort of come and get me and the bow was phallic. It was like a code in the painting as to the true thoughts of the artist. A cupboard in the back ground with the door open showing stuff might be code for something. The guitar allthough a similar shape is considered a male instrument with transgender overtones. The neck is obviously so phallic. The most obviously transgender guitar is the Fender Stratocaster. Jeff Beck and Eric Clapton plays a Strat in femail mode. Keith Richards plays a Strat in male mode. Cultural differences are over estimated. A lot of differences are because of geography and local conditions. I have met many foreigners and dig down and you find they want the same as you. They may appear to be different but everyone poos. Except the Queen. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1742 Registered: 6-2009 |
Bob UK wrote: . . . but everyone poos. Except the Queen. Shades of Carol Burnett, who I recall as having said, in reference to using the bathroom, "There are goers and non-goers. The Queen is not a goer! | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 324 Registered: 2-2013 |
Honestly Bob that info on the violin etc -- I need time to get my head around that one. As for my Russian joke, Russian humor contains much absurdity, surprise and most of all tragedy. Tragedy to Russians is very funny unless its something like a child getting hurt. But adult tragedy is something laughed about. However, the joke probably has a political root going back to Stalin's purge times in the 1930 where if you didn't like your neighbour and many Russians don't like their neighbours if you wanted to get rid of your neighbour you just rang the KGB hotline and said some like "Bobich says USA is good and democracy is better than communism" and that was the end of your neighbour - off to Siberia or maybe worse. Unfortunately, that type of thing happened so here is another joke, definitely a Soviet one and I should point out that Lenin had a Rolls Royce too. The genie in the previous joke was obviously a Russian Genie that why only one wish not three. Pravda used to be the main newspaper and the word means "Truth" And so three men are in prison. One says to the other "Why are you here?" "Well I wrote a letter to Pravda saying Zukovich was right but please tell me since you asked me this question why are you here yourself?" "Well", he replied "I wrote a letter to Pravda saying Zukovich was wrong" The two men then turned to the third man and asked what his story was: "I Zukovich !" | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1743 Registered: 6-2009 |
Vladimir, The art of messaging through indirection, and particularly seduction through indirection, is completely lost. It's quite interesting to read etiquette books, particularly contemporary ones by authors such as Judith Martin, who take the time to explain the unbelievably heavy meanings that could be carried by, for instance, turning a particular corner of one's calling card when visiting a home and you were not able to be seen at the time for whatever reason. The hidden language of flower choices was equally fraught. When repression of any kind is the social norm then "polite society" always finds ways to express its "less polite" instincts and sentiments in some very interesting ways. Brian | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 725 Registered: 5-2015 |
There's is an element of humour in others misfortune. A guy cutting his lawn chopped his big toe off which flew up and blinded him in one eye. Tragic but somehow funny. | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 564 Registered: 5-2009 |
The big artist of sexual overtones is Georgia O'Keefe: she painted flowers which all looked more or less like a woman's down under yonder, which is what the first Edsel grille looks like to me. I have always worked for gas pipeline companies: we used to have the corporate symbol on our hardhats which was supposed to be a blue gas flame; it was another example of resembling a woman's down under yonder causing much snikers and crude comments from a bunch of working men. as for the War WWII TheGreat Patriotic War Et al: I recall a lot of Sherman tanks and Studebaker and GMC trucks and some airplanes crossed the oceans to help our Russian friends. Two of my grandmother's sisters worked in a Douglas aircraft plant hastily erected in Tulsa Oklahoma at the onset of the War, making bombers of some sort. Aunt Nell worked in the engineering department(because she was smart and cute!) and she was in training to ferry bombers when the war ended, so she never got to fly one. She just died a couple years ago at age 93. My Mom still doesn't like anything German, because she was in first grade and my granddad almost got drafted but HL Hunt got him a deferment because oil was a war-critical job: she thought Hitler wanted to kill her daddy, etc. My other grandmother still had some ration stamps when she died in 2000. She hoarded butter because "we could not get it during the War" This granddaddy raised cotton which was also war-critical. Old people are dying fast and young people don't have a clue or care for that matter.Here we are today, all in it together. I saw a web site recently: it was a map of London with the site of almost all the bombs dropped by Germany in WWII: the place was really plastered. Dang. One of my favorite war stories: that Christmas Eve when allies and Germans stopped fighting,met out in no mans' land and sang Christmas songs. Saddest dam thing ever for people to have to suffer and die in war, but I don't have the answer. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1027 Registered: 5-2012 |
Old people are dying fast and young people don't have a clue or care I relate to that. My late father in law was part of the WWII war effort. Along with the Americans and other allies, he fought his way across Europe from the D-Day beaches right across to the Baltic States, meeting up with friendly Russian forces on the Eastern front. On the way he helped free Belsen as part of the British Liberation Army. In terms of personal achievement, it doesn't come finer than that. Geoff | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 343 Registered: 2-2013 |
Strange thing about wars just when you think there will never be another one, there always is. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1756 Registered: 6-2009 |
Randy Roberson wrote, and Geoff Wootton quoted: Old people are dying fast and young people don't have a clue or care for that matter. I say the following without even a trace of snark: 'Twas ever thus. Brian, who was probably an exception to the "doesn't have a clue nor care" rule, but recognizes this is how it's generally always been | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 748 Registered: 5-2015 |
My Dad was at El Alamein and Sidi Barrani. He used to talk to German POWs and found that they could be just like neighbours back in the UK. He only ever met one actual Nazi. He told him shut up causing aggro or get shot. My Mum was in the army and in charge of an anti aircraft battery on on of the Scottish Firths. The battery only ever shot one plane down. In spring 1945 a lone bomber flying down the firth. The plane crashed. The battery went to see the wreakage. The crew were walking wounded so they took them to a nearby pub for dinner and drinks. She said the crew once they knew they were safe were very polite and anxious to please. However another battery in the area shot a plane down and found body parts when they went to look. A TV programme was made about it. War can never be civilised. Trying to be tends to extend the war and leads to more dead. Dressing it up as a policing action is even worse. The UK used to have an empire. Now our Government apologises for the colonisation of distance lands. We apologise for building railways, roads, insitutions and good governance and stopping the silly buggers from killing each other. Old people are living longer and getting older. It may not seem that way but its true. As I have got older I have become more aware of old people. I think all young people are unaware. A 20 year old has in general no health problems and a year seems like a very long time. Now a year to me goes quick. | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 566 Registered: 5-2009 |
Get it over as quick as possible: I agree with you. Settle it. Break it then remake it. I agree with your comments about colonies. They sat in the dirt and had rocks. The west invented ways to make the rocks into useful things, which gave them value. Trillions worth of infrastructure built: drug them into a semblance of the modern world. Western civilization has done much for general well being. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 752 Registered: 5-2015 |
I get annoyed when despots blame us for the state of the country and the problems. The general compliant is that we stole their money. The money was made by us some of it was reinvested to build stuff and run the colony and rest we kept. Quite a normal capitalist way. With out us there wouldn't have been any money. One can't eat diamonds but one can sell them to us. So while they are moaning they should remember where the wealth really comes from. Africa could easily feed itself and by rights should be much richer than it is. They get money and spend on guns to kill the other tribe. I read somewhere that the natives ripped up railway tracks to make swords to kill each other with. They blame the UK but it didn't have to be like that. They could have stopped trying to kill each other and built a better society. Life can be so sweet. | ||
| ChristopherCarnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 109.148.48.198 |
"Beat your shields into plough shares and your spears into pruning hooks and don't speak of war anymore" (Message approved by david_gore) |
