| Author | Message | ||
     Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 546 Registered: 5-2015 |
I got a sniff ( pun intended ) that all was not well with Diesel Emissions last year, but didn't realise that it was this bad. VW is too big to fail because it would seriously damage the German economy. But it does leave them open to take over. Tata is on the prowl. VW have ring fenced 5 billion euros to pay. Thats probably a 5th of the eventual bill. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1744 Registered: 4-2003 |
I am involved in this as my partner has a MY09 VW Eos TDI which has an Euro 5 specification 2L diesel engine. VW have not released any useful information so far regarding which models, engine types and countries are involved. My major concern is the possible adverse effects of any hardware/software modifications that may be involved especially those that may be installed without prior consent of the owner during routine servicing. I expect driveability, performance and fuel consumption could be adversely affected. I have some contingency plans in place involving back-up system mapping and even the purchase of a back-up engine management module from a wreck as we intend keeping the Eos long term as it is no longer being made and it will be a future classic car. However, I am watching future developments with great interest as I suspect VW may not be the only European manufacturer with diesel compliance problems if these manufacturers use similar emission control systems to VW. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 547 Registered: 5-2015 |
The technical problem is in general engines perform best when slightly rich. This also uses less fuel due to extra performance. Which why when gunnimg a petrol engine it goes from oxygen sensor authority to preset map authority. Which where the lads remap. When I was a civil servant I questioned the stated emissions because evidence from mates with new cars stated other wise. I got told to shut up and stop reading science fiction. How Volkswagen thought they could get away with this is anybodies guess. Someone was bound to read the ECU codes in detail. I know people who can unravel algorithms they think in hexadecimal. Aye aye whats this sub routine attached to the airbags. Bingo. I suspect that Peugeot and Leyland Daff fiddled the emissions on the Sherpa vans. Good engine but very old school diesel dirty. Before the police used them we would get them warm before they left due to the enormous amount of start up/ cold smoke. Once warm the smoke went. We often usef to get compliants from the general public that we weren't looking after the vans. We was but couldn't do anything about the starting. The rear doors would be covered in smuts. The UK government has been very quiet. They went on co2 not nox. Co2 isnt that harmful and at present is about 400 bits per million. Which is why my brambles and weeds grow so fast. I think mother nature is sorting co2 out. Maybe high co2 doesnt cause global warming but global warming causes high co2. The government skewed the money to make diesels attractive. Now petrol cars are returning. Nox is really bad and carcinogenic. Nitrogen Oxides. When oil is mentioned most think petrol and diesel. But oil is much much more than that and petrol is only a byproduct of refining oil. Petrol has little use apart from petrol engines. Before petrol engines. Lamp oil would have too much light vapours which killed many people. Standard Oil introduced a standard lamp oil which was just right. Kerosene. Esso later did the same which was called esso regulation kerosene or ERK. Before the petrol engine petrol was a liability to oil companies. So its our duty as gas guzzling Rolls Royce owners to assist the oil companies in getting rid of this dangerous stuff. UK pre tax price of petrol is 30p a litre. Which as Jeremy Clarkson said is remarkable because of the logistics of getting it to a pump near you and check out the size of the ship. It costs 1 gallon of ship fuel to deliver a car from Toyota Japan to the UK. Economy of scale. The government could easily sort this out by making petrol cheaper. The whole thing about diesel versus petrol for cars is really about fuel tax. Take 30p off a litre of petrol and diesels will be gone in a few years. Maybe even trucks. A car produces emission when being made used and finally scrapped. So further duty is not to scrap Rolls Royces. Its ok to scrap the hyphen. I should think a Shadow made a lot of emissions when being made. However we have to live and do things unfortunately most lead to emissions of some sort. The Greens in the UK want further co2 teductions. The UK contributes 2% to global co2. So even a massive massive cut of 20% would have little effect on global co2 levels. Nox is a different animal that effects air quality more locally than co2. At ground level its a killer. Nox forms into ozone. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1746 Registered: 4-2003 |
Interesting twist contained in the following Australian news item: http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/v...01-gjz4gp.html "Conversely, Audi, which on Monday said 2.1 million of its vehicles shared the same "defeat device" as Volkswagen, clarified its Australian position within 48 hours by confirming the software is fitted to local vehicles but is in an "inactive" state." This has a long way to go ....... | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1747 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bob, Further to your comments on kerosene, diesel and petrol and the relative uses of both products which result from breaking down and refining crude oil, the modern motor passenger vehicle and aircraft largely owe their development to the need of oil companies to find applications which would use the originally unwanted by-products of oil refining for lamp kerosene. Petrol was ideal for aircraft piston engines and better than kerosene for automotive engines as it did not need preheating of the engine to fully vapourise the kerosene before it could be used in the engine. The later development of the jet engine saw kerosene replace petrol for commercial aviation use and petrol confined to light aircraft. As a teenager, I used to drive a lot of pre-WW2 farm machinery fitted with petrol/kerosene engines and have never forgotten the starting rigmarole - switch the fuel to petrol, drain the carburettor fuel bowl, prime the carburettor with petrol and start the engine, let it idle until the temperature gauge reached normal operating temperature, switch to kerosene before waiting a minute or two to start working. No wonder petrol/kerosine engines never became popular for passenger cars....... | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 855 Registered: 1-2008 |
Forget all your diesel, petrol, kerosene/petrol hybrids, electric hybrids. In the UK LPG is the way to go. Currently at 50p/litre or less I run both my Shadow and US spec Dodge Ram on it. I is quids in, innit? | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 549 Registered: 5-2015 |
I too use lpg. I am 1 mile from lpg pump 24 hours as well. I is quids in innit. As well. TVO tractor vapourising oil. This was for Bolinder type hot tube semi diesels like the Field Marshal tractor. Started with a shotgun special blank cartridge. The Bolinder is favoured in canal narrow boats. It ran slow enough to be direct drive to the prop. Because its a 2 stoke it will run backwards so no gearbox. A good engine man can as the engine stops and bounces on compression restart the engine in reverse. To start from cold a blow lamp heats this closed tube which goes into the pre combustion chamber. Fuel is squirted in which catches fire and shoots a flame out of the pre combustion chamber throat to main combustion chamber and it runs. The fuel is squirted into the space above the piston the piston then compresses the mixture which forces some if the mixture into the pre combustion chamber. The system doesn't have a wide rpm range. Injection timing is fixed. To slow and the hot tube loses heat too fast and the engine pinks bad. About 8 to 1 compression. Normal indirect diesels are 20 to 1 or more, and only require heater plugs for starting. Where as the Bolinder having low compression needs the hot tube to hot all the time. They run on anything that go through the injector and burn. Lard paint any oils mineral or veggie alcohol. Bolinder is part of Volvo and still make semi diesels and in Poole harbour is a boat with a 4 cylinder 2 stoke Bolinder with starter motor and auto pre heating. This is used as a generator and makes a wierd exhaust noise. Chuffer chuff chuff. 50 kw. Also there are single cylinder ones from the 1930s still chugging around Poole harbour. These older engines had a kick start to turn the engine. Get it wrong and it breaks yer leg. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 262 Registered: 10-2008 |
Bob, TVO is used on the very popular Ferguson TE20 (Grey Fergie) Start on petrol, then switch to TVO, performs best under load.There are many articles in the vintage tractor press for TVO formulation today ( nearly as many as for RR363 !). Still a popular little workhorse particularly with cattle, show tractor and vintage ploughing competitor Mark | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3233 Registered: 4-2003 |
Not the first time such antics have occurred. When the Jaguar XJS first reached Australia in the early-mid 1970s it had to pass the emissions test, probably ADR27a, before it could be sold to the public. That involved a test at 80km/h on the rolling road. It failed and failed and failed. There was nothing they could do. They tried one last time before starting a new design of the emissions controls and miraculously it passed with a fair margin. It is now no secret why. They guy who did the test told me himself in about 1980 and it was just vaguely secret and funny back then. On the successful test they left the gear selector in second gear by mistake. That Jag V12 could either be economical or be low on pollution (mainly CO but also NOx) but not both at the same time. Back then passing the air quality test allowed the car to be sold. Fuel consumption was the Customer's problem. Today's VAG issue is probably never to be resolved as, this time, the obligation is to meet NOx pollution levels at the same time as CO2 (fuel consumption) obligations. There may be financial solutions, but I am interested in any persuasions that a technical solution can be found before these VAG cars exceed their useful life of around 5 years. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 556 Registered: 5-2015 |
The little grey fergy is in my imaginery museum man cave. Just the thing to pop down the shop on and if on the way a field needs ploughing one could just plough it. Not sports fields though. Ah yes Richard. Its often ignored that a car that is quoted at 40mpg and 120mph can't do both at the same time. I do about 3000 miles a year so petrol or lpg for me. This year so far only 200 miles due to illness. I cant be bothered with diesels. It has die in the word. DIEsel. As Jeremy Clarkson said when he was driving a 2.7 v6 S type DIEsel around the Nuringberg Ring. The engine suddenly runs out of puff. That's an extreme use though. Under normal conditions the jags fine. To get modern diesels to perform like petrol engines they have things dual mass flywheels which get slack. If removed the crankshaft is liable to snap. And the car will drive like a tractor. Then there's the very simple but very fine toleranced common rail injection. The way it works is simple but one wee bit of dirt and its 2000 quid to repair. All this came from the 1997 Koyto agreement on emissions. The Green brigade totally ignore the engineering technical side. Latest is convert a coal fired power station to bio mass. In other words wood. The wood comes from Canada. Much better dig up the coal from 2 miles away. Modern coal fired stuff is much cleaner. Coal was wood and has more energy. Everything engineering is dirty according to the Greens. Yet the Greens want cheap clothes etc etc. Its engineering that does that. Incidently. In the 1500s England Elizabeth the first. England ran out of wood to burn. Which is when the coal industry started. Now there are more trees in the UK than there was 500 years ago. A civil servant was discussing engineering with me. She didn't understand that the chairs and tables we were sitting at was an engineering product. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1748 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bob, Many drivers do not understand the need to change driving habits when switching from a petrol to diesel car. With petrol cars, you use increased engine revs to get performance and use the lower gears more often if you want maximum acceleration. The engine is more willing to accelerate when under load. With diesel cars, you use higher gears and use the inherent greater torque of the engine to provide acceleration. Naturally aspirated diesels like my 4WD hate hills because the engine drops revs to hit the peak of the torque curve thus losing speed. We are all aware of seeing trucks and older diesel cars slogging away when climbing hills for this reason. Turbo-diesels do not have this problem as they produce higher torque and can rev higher thus maintaining or increasing road speed when the engine comes under load. My partner's turbo-diesel VW Eos can accelerate and hold speed better than a petrol turbo equivalent with better fuel economy - this is why I am concerned with the effect of any changes to the vehicle arising from the probable recall. P.S. The Manning Valley is still a favourite repository of "little grey fergies" due to the historic presence of many small "mum, dad and the kids" dairy farms where the fergie was the ideal tractor with a wide range of 3 point linkage attachments for just about any task asked of it. As I write this, we are waiting for long-time friends to arrive for a visit and they still have the fergie 20HP they used on their farm before they retired sitting in their backyard shed for future restoration [there are a couple of Morris Minor 1000's to be finished first]. I am hoping to be able to drive it one day..... | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 559 Registered: 5-2015 |
Dave Exactly right. Using the low rev grunt of diesels is the way to go. Hence the dual mass flywheel other wise massive drive line shunting. I had a Citroën BX 19 diesel and it was fine around town but after 50mph its a waiting game. However 70 mph is 70 mph and how it gets there isnt an issue for me. I used to let it gather speed. I suspect when these VWs are sorted out that both mpg and power are going to be down. The 2 things that an owner will notice are mpg and power. Not emissions. This is going to mean refunds and cars being brought back. Also under UK law a class action is all inclusive and owners will automatically included unless they opt out. And the finance companies who supplied the money to buy the car are alsi liable. Already there is a lawyers for VW emissions class action phone line. A mate has a Fergie 20hp tractor with harrows ploughs and a gang mower. Very useful. Great fun. I line up with a tree or post to get the first run straight. Then drop the wheels in the furrow for the rest. Also he is making chain fail like a land mine digger for the front so he can rip bramble patches up. | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 525 Registered: 5-2009 |
TVO as I recall was a way to find the cheapest possible fuel for the farmer, because the economics of farming were (are) relatively poor. In the USA it was called kerosene or coal oil. I thought the dual-mass flywheels was a vibration cancelling feature; I have seen these on some of the GM and Ford pickup truck Diesels here in the USA. A German co. has set up here in north Louisiana to make wood pellets for heat, to be exported to Germany. I have a "Little Grey Fergie", a TO 20, that was basically headed to the scrap before I rescued it. A very historic tractor; our version was made in Detroit. I understand Firestone would not sell Harry Ferguson any tires because of the tiff with Henry Ford over their use of the 3-point hydraulics, and the Fords and Firestones being tied by marriage, etc., but Goodyear sold them all the tires they needed on credit. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3236 Registered: 4-2003 |
It’s a bit sad when a Rolls-Royce and Bentley forum attracts chats about tractors and ancient diesels. I have a nice sit-on lawnmower for that matter, I sorely admitb that I drive yearly about 40,000 in a diminutive direct-injection Citroën turbodiesel C6. The other 40,000km are in a Bentley. If, by necessity, you drive 1.000km weekly as I do, a tractor just will not do, Idler Chatter. Idle Chat. Valve Clatter. Piston slap. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 978 Registered: 5-2012 |
Richard You do realize you have just invited a new discussion on lawnmowers. Geoff | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 527 Registered: 5-2009 |
Anyone ever own one of the Wankel-engine mowers?? There was a chain saw and a couple other air cooled small Wankel engines and I'm thinking about looking for a working example. if I recall correctly, Rolls-Royce did some experimental Wankel work. Ingersoll-Rand USA had a 550 HP single rotor and 1100 HP dual rotor unit and some were sold. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 957 Registered: 9-2004 |
No mowers however a DKW Hercules and a Suzuki RE5 m/cycle resting in the motor house. Emissions etc not good for size of engine! | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1757 Registered: 4-2003 |
The R-R Wankel diesel project has its own topic on our Forum: http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/30/9055.html | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 599 Registered: 5-2015 |
I have a Honda lawn mower its 30 years old and still going strong. I reckon Honda industrial engines are about the best there is. This engine is OHV push rod engine. It starts from hot or cold with a gentle pull on the cord. It mashes 2ft weeds and grass down quickly. 1 litre of petrol does the whole garden plus. Nothing wrong with tractors or talking about them. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1758 Registered: 4-2003 |
One useful hint from my years in the pump industry and petrol-engined firefighting pumps in particular - when putting a 4 stroke petrol engined machine into storage for more than a month or two, pull the engine over until it is on the compression stroke so both the intake and exhaust valves are closed. This minimises rusting of the valve stems and subsequent jamming/sticking of the valves next time an attempt is made to start the engine. Both Honda and Briggs and Stratton engines have their die-hard supporters, B&S egines rev higher than Hondas which is desirable for pump applications but were [I am assuming B&S have since addressed this problem with a gravity feed carburetor rather than continuing with their original suction feed unit] more difficult to start than the Honda equivalent with its gravity feed carburetor. We also fitted our pumps with a Suzuki engine which was a magnificent unit but did not have the market appeal of the B&S and Honda engines. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 289 Registered: 2-2013 |
People who worry about this greenhouse gas emission caper need to take a flight to Manila and observe. They will see the same thing in every third world city and especially in China.We are going to gas ourselves and all the enquiries and legislative measures taken will not matter one iota. Thats why I will drive a Camargue and Cadillac. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Frequent User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 67 Registered: 4-2015 |
10-4. "Life's too short to drive a boring car." | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 984 Registered: 5-2012 |
I have no ethical problems driving the Silver Shadow. After all, here in America, at 12 mpg, it is considered to be an economy car. Nice to see you back Vladimir. Geoff | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 290 Registered: 2-2013 |
I have placed car manufacturers into the same basket as politicans long ago. As for the car designers they sit comfortably with the certified insane. Some of the latest model cars are so breathtakingly ugly that its obvious to me that their sideline hobby must be the in depth study of Australian, Cambodian and South American Insects. Just what type of mind altering narcotics the design bureaus are consuming must be a governmental classified secret possibly cooked up by the fat boys in Langley's basement where light never reaches. And yet people continue to hurl large amounts of their heavily taxed earnings at these ferocious mobile eyesores. I put this down to the billions spent on advertised propaganda. When sane people can be persuaded that a new piece of asian garbage can be a better buy at the same price as a nicely kept Shadow by an animated leaping chicken then any lunacy is possible. Now for a laugh google cane toad Ford advertisement -its funny but has failed to convince me. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 988 Registered: 5-2012 |
That's one sick sense of humor you have there Vladimir. Not to mention the Ford advertising department. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 857 Registered: 1-2008 |
Vladimir: Your point about advertising is well put. It's a truism, but Coca Cola and Pepsi both spend more on advertising and sponsorship than on anything else. Some charities are the same. As for car manufacturers; the mind boggles at how much they spend on pushing their current piece of computerised crap. Many new cars can do a lot for you in extremis, but do you really need automatic 4 way flashers? an automatic call to your breakdown service? bluetooth warnings about tyre pressures? The more complex a system, the more there is to go wrong and so the more \b[will] go wrong! What happened to 'all you need is duct tape, bailing wire and a hammer. Anything they can't fix is electrical'? | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1706 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jan, Most people think of automobiles as transportation appliances first and foremost. They may "buy in" to the various marques as marks of status and prefer certain styling and features over others, but if the car doesn't get you where you want to go when you want to go there it's pretty useless. I've been alive long enough to hear the "all you need is duct tape" line in iteration after iteration, all the while the cars in question needed less and less and less of it, and numerous other things, and have run longer and better. Immature complex technologies are fraught with potential for errors. As they mature (and those errors have occurred and preventive measures or redesigns have been undertaken) they become far less so. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the thing I've had the least problems with on the post-ecu-introduction cars I've owned is with the computerized stuff. What's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget. Brian | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 609 Registered: 5-2015 |
It depends on how electonic savvy you are. I know of a few 10 year old cars that have been scrapped because of electronics problems. It just costs too much to repair them. My neighbours seat memory started doing weird things like squashing him against the steering wheel. So he disconnected the motor and sparked it up to get the seat in the right position and left it. My Jeep has a delay on the headlights which I never use because of street lighting. And so on. Ford adverts are about a list of features which they plug one at a time. Trouble is that when a maker brings out a no frills model it doesn't sell well. Everybody starts adding options. Who cares about blue tooth you are meant to be driving a car not playing with the computer. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1707 Registered: 6-2009 |
Bob_UK wrote: Who cares about blue tooth you are meant to be driving a car not playing with the computer. Bob, clearly millions of people do. Bluetooth is most commonly used for making your smartphone work with the hands-free features in a car and to stream music on many more. I don't care about it one whit, but I've tired of seeing the, "Who cares about thing X?" rhetorical question when it is abundantly clear that the majority of the buying market does. I will freely admit that I am an outlier in regard to bells and whistles: I don't need or want most of them. My personal tastes are not the gold standard of what others may need and/or want. Brian, who thinks that arguing against what the market has clearly shown that it wants is pure folly | ||
| Bob Reynolds Grand Master Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 340 Registered: 8-2012 |
It's the marketing people's job to make people think they want all the latest compucrap, and they'll jolly well get it whether they want it or not.  I suspect a lot of it is never actually used. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1709 Registered: 6-2009 |
Bob, I can't, in any way, argue with you there. It is amazing how successful marketing (and peer pressure) is in creating demand. Every time I see a new iPhone launched, and people lining up around the block to toss away their 6-month-old model for the latest iteration, my jaw drops. I'm also amazed at how easy it is to "up sell" people for virtually any technology you can name. I see elderly clients buying computers that I'd never buy for myself because I have no need for ultra-fast processing (which is pretty much needed only for realtime gaming and/or heavy 3D graphics rendering in other applications) or with biometric security (fingerprint recognition). And they've done it because a sales person suggested it. I have yet to see anyone, including myself, come close to using all the available options on a single piece of technology. Of course, what's in the "I have no need for/use for this!!" category for myself is someone else's "I can't live with out that!!" feature. Computers (at least those sold in most retail venues) aren't really a "pick and choose your options" deal like most cars are. Of course, compared to how you could pick and choose virtually any combination of options you wanted on cars during my youth, these days optioning is more often done in packages, and it's pretty maddening when you want two single options that are only available only if you buy two packages to get them, with tons of stuff you couldn't care less about. Brian | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 617 Registered: 5-2015 |
Bobreynolds wrote I suspect lot is never used. You are absolutely right. I have a stereo amplifier which only has volume balance bass treble imput selector mute and power with a led to say its on. No equalising or any other frills. Cambridge audio ltd. My view is what else does an amp need? Anything else is not used and tuned off by most users. The amp sounds best if the tone controls are centred and left there. The tone and balance controls are very small the Volume knob is much bigger. Thats good design. Less is more. In this case the bare minimum but first class sound reproduction. But with cars this doesn't work. One could build a car that is solid first class engineering imagine a RR with no gadgets such as electric windows and seats. (Silver Dawn or R type) But the buyers want a luxury car that has more gadgets than ordinary cars. Due to the cheapnest of electronics this has become possible with lower priced cars. This makes luxury car makers seach for gadgets that we don't need like memory seats and mirrors. The next big thing will be cameras but a law change is required about cctv screens in view of the driver. My wifes mate horse box has a reverse camera but it must only work in reverse gear. These are good. My phone works in any car without blue tooth including internet. Built in sat nav keeps the car tidy but I in main know exactly where I am going but I keep the sat nav in the glove box just in case. When I do use sat nav I am usually within a mile or destination so use is very minimal. Do gadgets make a luxury car. The Daily Mail described a Hummer as a luxury car!! |
