| Author | Message | ||
     Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2473 Registered: 09-2004 |
All looks good even the styling at last IMO. All gas cars to finish in 2030. The new dawn has arrived. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-10040911/First-teaser-images-revealed-electric-Rolls-Royce-Spectre-2023.html . | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3222 Registered: 06-2009 |
It's an electric Wraith, for all practical intents and purposes, at least if the photo is accurately representative of the body style. We'll have to disagree on the body style. While not ugly, I've found the entire line of RRs after the Goodwood Phantom quite generic and uninspiring while the Phantom is, to quote a late friend who was a RR and Bentley enthusiast, "vulgar." The interiors are marvelous, the sheet metal, not so much. The last RRs I really liked were the Seraph era cars. And I'm not one of those, "Well the last real Rolls-Royce was . . .," people. But every person to their own taste. Brian | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 295 Registered: 07-2018 |
If they would just get rid of that ugly deep air-scoop in the front, it would stop looking like a truck or SUV. The front end IMO, should be refined, elegant and regal, it's just to aggressive and utilitarian looking. It looks like everything else out there. It wouldn't take much to hide it. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3223 Registered: 06-2009 |
Jeff Martin wrote, in part: It looks like everything else out there. That, overall, has been my primary complaint about the newest generation styling idiom at Rolls-Royce as far as sheet metal goes: There's no there there. It's bland, uninspiring, and really not much to look at. And I don't think that "everything looks the same," as there are some spectacularly gorgeous designs out there that are aerodynamic yet in no way generic. Mazda, Kia (which now has brilliant designers - their latest generation can only be described as both utterly distinctive and thoroughly striking), Maserati, BMW, Cadillac (the Art and Science design idiom has been brilliant, and is timeless, too), and others have designs that are eye-catching and instantly recognizable, from any angle, as coming from that maker. I just don't see this with RR, other than the Phantom, and even that is due to sheer size. It's not beautiful in any sense of that word. Brian | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 751 Registered: 10-2008 |
Given the speed of the HS2, Crossrail and latest nuclear power station development, and the Management of the fuel distribution crisis, if petrol and diesel cars vanish in 2030, everyone in the UK will need a pedal cycle ! An electric car is simply a waste of money in the UK, the required infrastructure and provision of power supplies to the majority of cars, parked on the public roads will take decades ! | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3224 Registered: 06-2009 |
Mark Aldridge:
I would have been inclined to believe the same here in the USA, but I don't anymore. If the political will existed the infrastructure could be in place well before 2030. But right now the business will is there to create it. Tesla single-handedly built major charging infrastructure in high-density areas, and companies such as Walmart (or someone they've teamed up with) is putting the charging equivalent of petrol stations in the middle of their parking lots at a very fast rate. [And if it's happening where I live, and both of those things are, it's not limited strictly to "high-density" areas, though we are located along a major interstate highway where it as a junction with another.] This isn't rocket science, nor really high tech in any meaningful sense of the word. It's a matter of it being a money maker, and all signs are that it will be a money maker. All the more so as EVs "take off" in various markets. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 2281 Registered: 05-2012 |
It certainly will be a money maker for rich corporations and politicians forcing everyone to buy their EVs. I feel sorry for low income people who genuinely will be forced onto pedal cycles if the US follows the UK. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3225 Registered: 06-2009 |
Geoff, Do you honestly believe that the massive existing number of internal combustion powered vehicles are going to just, *poof*, vanish? I don't, at least not in the USA. We've virtually never followed what much of the rest of the world does not (only, anyway) because we think we know better but because of sheer size and distances involved. Many nations of Europe are smaller than many of the states/commonwealths in the USA, with small populations, relatively speaking, too. What works there will not necessarily work here, or vice versa. There will also be a huge used car market for whatever types of vehicles are sold, EVs included in that mix. A 10 year old Tesla will have dropped in price, and radically, from when new just like the Chevy Volt, Nissan Leaf, and others have. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 2282 Registered: 05-2012 |
Hi Brian You are talking choice and I wholly agree with that. The reason I said I hope the US does not follow the UK is in the UK that choice is to be taken away. In 2030 no new petrol or diesel cars will be allowed to be sold in the UK. The problem with used EVs is that after 7 ish years they will need battery replacements at around $7K a pop, so even the used car market will get much more expensive for people on a budget. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 4018 Registered: 04-2003 |
Geoff, It is my humble expectation the "Scrap Price" for a reduced capacity Li-ion battery will be higher than current expectations due to an increasing market for recycling Lithium from reduced capacity batteries as supplies of virgin Lithium on current knowledge of viable deposits will not meet demand. This also applies to Li-ion batteries used in solar power systems as they will also be subject to the same loss of storage capacity over time and the ongoing demand for new batteries with greater storage capacity. My current home solar power system with 3 Tesla Powerwall batteries can supply full demand power for 4 days without any recharging which is extremely rare if ever. The traditional now-privatised electricity supply companies have lobbied the relevant State Governments to place increasing restrictions on private users of solar-generated electricity as these companies can no longer generate sufficient profits to recover the cost of the ridiculously high prices they paid for the government-owned thermal power stations and the related distribution network which have substantially lost value due to privately installed home renewable power systems. I am currently on a 1 year contract with a maximum supply limit of 5kW and a fixed price for all electricity I export to the grid however there has been a substantial increase in fixed network connection charges to the point I now barely break even as all the income restricted by the supply limitations barely covers the fixed unavoidable service fees imposed by the privatised power supply companies. When this contract expires, I intend disconnecting from the grid completely, installing an additional storage battery and using my 6.5kVA petrol generator as emergency backup to the batteries in the event of a prolonged period of extreme cloud cover [very rare if ever in our location]. My system was also installed with the intention of recharging future EV replacements for our 2 current diesel vehicles within the next 5 years. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3227 Registered: 06-2009 |
Geoff, When it comes to choice I have long ago accepted that what we have to choose from is what manufacturers produce (ignoring buying used, of course). Here in the USA, when it comes to cars, the hue and cry when leaded gasoline was finally phased out completely was deafening. Loud plaints that unleaded would be the death of old cars were heard throughout the land. Well, there are (and were then) other compounds that do what lead had been doing. No mass death occurred. Not very long ago there was a large outcry when the final death of the incandescent light bulb, at least the ones commonly used at home, was announced. Every sort of outrage was flung about along the lines of, "I should be able to choose the kind of light bulb I want." Well, no, it's never worked that way. You always got to choose among the options being produced, and that's what you still have. All signs are that EVs, mostly secondary to the desire for zero emissions at place of use, and the ability to control emissions on "an industrial scale" at power generation plants, is pushing the automobile industry across the world to jettison the internal combustion engine for EVs. Thus is life, and technology marches on. I cannot count the number of my own favored or favorite things that have gone out of production during my lifetime, never to be seen again. I long ago accepted this as a fact of life, and won't waste a scintilla of my own energy railing against the inevitable. And the move toward EVs appears, from my vantage point, to be entirely inevitable (and actually based on societal needs). The era of the internal combustion engine as the primary, nay, almost only power plant for motor vehicles is drawing to a close. Brian, who also takes Mr. Gore's sentiments into account, too | ||
| David Hughes Experienced User Username: wedcar Post Number: 126 Registered: 07-2004 |
Forum Members In regard to vast distances in the U.S.A. is also applicable in Australia. The "range" of EV's is now a priority for Toyota in designing their Hydrogen Fuel Cell powered vehicles to combat this issue. Australia is now investing substantial amounts of effort and Capital in producing Hydrogen from renewable sources of energy. Hydrogen filling stations are already in use in various countries, it will be interesting to see how this developes in the future. Regards David | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2475 Registered: 09-2004 |
IMO the reason for the Toyota change to go hydrogen is down to the fact of being caught out on the sales hype for their cars ie "self charging hybrid" no plug in. The car still has a petrol engine to power the generator and a petrol tank to fill up. Add the weight of the electrics etc and it became the biggest con in the electric car world. Hydrogen, will still have to have lorry delivery and infrastructure in place, as for the cars they still have to have an engine and heavy hydrogen tank with costly servicing etc. Tesla have a good super-charging network and increasing all the time in many parts of the world. The cars are way ahead with the running technology battery design cooling, range is well ahead of the rest. Super-charging points in USA  Charging stations in OZ  | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 256 Registered: 11-2006 |
Apart from Lithium, there is also a shortage of cobalt and copper. If and that is a big IF all vehichle shifts to EV then the volume of vehicles produced per annum will have to be drastically reduced , which in itself is not a bad idea totally as we have been manufacturing ourselves into oblivion for quite some time. I have been running LPG vehicles for near 30 years and have noticed just how quick the market can change to the point that now I can only just barely got from Sydney to Melbourne without having to use the reserve petrol. And this is after the Howard Government tried to shift the market by offering massive subsidies for converting to LPG 10 years ago which was drastically over subscribed, yet LPG has been removed from a massive number of fuel stations. The real problem ( in my mind ) is the over hyping of EV's to the point thta Joe Aerage actually believes that all he has to do is toss some cells on the roof & swap to an EV then it will be problem solved and life as usual | ||
| michael vass Frequent User Username: mikebentleyturbo2 Post Number: 729 Registered: 07-2015 |
I've heard that the amount of pollution caused in the making and transport of the battery equates to 14 years of driving and equivalent diesel. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2476 Registered: 09-2004 |
With any new adaption that changes the norm will always have negative views. I would sooner have towns and cities with clean air also drop off zones outside of schools with children. Diesel particulates are carcinogens that can cause lung and bladder cancer! Once the batteries are manufactured they can be recycled 95% end of life. Plenty of battery research ongoing with new technology around the corner. Trevor, only prob so far as i am concerned is that towing with an electric vehicle is a real pain to charge up on route at a charging station with a trailer hooked up. Autumn has arrived time to fit my winter wheels and tyres. Weight and low centre of gravity! | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3228 Registered: 06-2009 |
Patrick Lockyer wrote, in part: With any new adaption that changes the norm will always have negative views. Yep. I've yet to see a major disruptor in any arena not have tons of naysayers at the outset. It's the nature of the beast. It's still too early to say if EVs will definitely become dominant, but I would be quite willing to bet that they will. This is particularly because almost everyone I know of who has either owned or driven one sings the praises of their performance and handling characteristics over their petrol-powered compatriots. And I don't chalk that up to "a honeymoon period" in this case. Brian | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 4019 Registered: 04-2003 |
Brian, The current rise of EV's is history repeating itself in the auto industry; the Ford Model T opened up a big market for the fledgling auto industry. There is no doubt history will repeat itself with EV technology replacing IC engine technology.  | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 257 Registered: 11-2006 |
Don't get me wrong. I am not Luddite And there is noting wrong with the introduction of EV's My problem is the justification that it will drastically reduce pollution which is wrong. While it will reduce tail pipe emissions it will increase pollution elsewhere but of course if it is not happening in my driveway then of course I am not responsible for it am I ? And I still want to see where al of the cobalt & copper is going to come from, let alone berillium . It will of course be a bonnaza for OZ as Lithium & nickle prices are going t go sky high & we have lots of both in easy to mine locations but it will do diddly squat to slow down global warming | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2326 Registered: 04-2016 |
You are spot on Trevor. “As long as the pollution is happening elsewhere, my heart & head is clear” This is the common misconception about all versions of EV’s. We (Australia) exclusively burn coal to generate all base load electricity. I understand that people do want to do the right thing, but they also need to be fully informed about all pollutants for the production & running of an EV, compared to a petrol or diesel vehicle. Some people also do the right thing by generating their own power to then charge their vehicle, these are the people who at least understand what is happening. Interestingly some countries use solar to charge vehicles while the owner is at work for a minimal fee, then the car owner can then run their household using the cars battery pack, rather than a seperate battery at home. This is very smart thinking, and this is a very green and responsible way to do this. Plus no massive outlay for a battery that is not mobile and can only do one job. Quite smart I think. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3232 Registered: 06-2009 |
Patrick Ryan:
And the United States and China both still use lots of coal. That being said, the technologies available for "scrubbing emissions" and carbon sequestration at power generation stations allows for far tighter control over emissions as a whole than any on-board technology on millions upon millions upon millions of ICE vehicles do. That, coupled with the fact that many countries are trying to phase out coal as quickly as they can, the potential for EVs reducing emissions overall is simply massive if they become the most common form of vehicle on the road. And you do, immediately, reduce point-of-use emissions in the communities where EVs predominate, and for major metropolitan areas that's a worthy goal in and of itself. EVs are not a panacea, nor are they instantly going to "solve everything," but they are an important part of the mix and would result in very significant emissions reductions in areas currently choked by smog that comes primarily from emissions from automobiles. Brian | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2327 Registered: 04-2016 |
Well said Brian. | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 297 Registered: 07-2018 |
Patrick Ryan said, "Interestingly some countries use solar to charge vehicles while the owner is at work for a minimal fee, then the car owner can then run their household using the cars battery pack, rather than a seperate battery at home". Run their household ??? What are they running, that must be some collection of batteries to run a household. Wouldn't they just drain right down running a washing machine, dryer and stove, TV etc. ? If a person had a gas stove and hot water heater, but then burning gas creates emissions. You can't call it running a household with a couple of lights on. Happened upon this documentary on PBS about ocean freighters carrying all these shipping containers full of goods from China (and all over) The show lead us to believe that the big diesel engines were designed to burn the crudest and cheapest fuel possible creating vast amounts of pollution, the amount that was created by the worlds car population was dwarfed by the emissions coming from these big massive ships. There in which lies the real problem, people believe that by doing their part, I don't believe does much. People are living this illusion, that if they go totally green that things will get better, but I don't believe that, not when there is so much heavy industry out there where the incredibly wealthy that run all this don't really care _ money is everything. I just Googled how many cargo ships there are on the worlds oceans at any given, I got the number 50,000. I think change will come eventually to heavy industry, as these big freighters wear out and replaced by more efficient ships, and I believe some are electric already, but change comes slow, and by the time it happens, it will be very much too late _ it's already too late really. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3233 Registered: 06-2009 |
Jeff Martin:
Big picture, I absolutely agree. At the same time, better late than never definitely applies. And thinking along the lines of the perfect being the enemy of the good (or at least better, even if incrementally, than we've been doing) is of zero help. We have to do something, because doing nothing is not a viable option. But how this all turns out is still a very open question. I also won't be alive anywhere near long enough to see "how this all turns out." My nieces and nephews, and their own children, however, will. I feel an obligation to do whatever "small somethings" that are within my power to do, and to support sane public policy that acknowledges anthropomorphic global climate change as a major issue. Throwing up my hands is just not something I could live with. Brian | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 258 Registered: 11-2006 |
Don't know what industrial experience you have Brian, but I came originally from the metals industry. If you have ever seen a carbon boil happening or even Zinc blowing in a copper furnace you might change your mind. Pollution is a funny thing - In many cases the planet can handle it in SMALL doses quite happily. The CO2 from a tailpipe does not travel very far till it starts to disperse and at a guess ( and it is a guess ) most of it would get consumed by vegetation in close proximity to the roads. Particulates also do not travel particularly far , even the ultra fines are lucky to get further than a few hundred meters in open territory , let alone suburbia or a city. The chimney stack from a lead furnace had a drop out zone radius of some 50 miles. The exhaust from power stations travels in concentrated form for Hundreds of miles radially and thousands of feet vertically so does not get converted but rather remains in the atmosphere and often creates inversion layers rather than to dissipate. The idea of scrubbing power station exhausts clean is a myth - It can be done in a lab but it can not be done ECONOMICALLY in practice. Even now the volume of sulphuric acid that is pulled out of power station stacks is substantially more than the entire volume of sulphuric acid used. So where does it all go ? Accidential spills of course. Ships leave full of it and arrive at port empty. Unless every power station is run by a government authority that is independently audited then these sorts of things will always happen as the fines are so low compared to the cost of proper disposal. Now the idea that any power company is going to spend a fortune on recovering the CO2 out of the stack which is likely to double if not treble the cost of generation is a non event. And then there is the problem of where to store it . Now I do believe in EV's, but in the right place. If Tesla really wanted to reduce pollution then they would be concentrating on delivery vehicles in the 1 ton to 5 ton range. These are the vehicles that use 1 if not more tanks of fuel each & every day and spend most of their time in traffic going nowhere. When I did Sydney CBD delivery run I used 1.25 tanks of LPG each & every day. When I did the Northern Beaches run I did twice the Km on around 3/4 tank of LPG a day. Sydney alone has more than 100,000 delivery vehicles in this size range so the potential market is astronomical. And as the payback period of a truck 3 times the price of an ICE one would be in the order of 2 years or less, industry would leap at the opportunity as it is economically viable. However doing some thing concrete that actually makes a difference is not as sexy as making a 200 mph super car that few can afford let alone justify so will sell a tiny fraction when compared to the light truck market and actually increase the overall pollution load on the planet rather than reduce it. India OTOH is now making compressed air vehicles (of a French design ) to reduce their city vehicle pollution but I would bet almost none of you would have ever heard of them. And they will reduce overall pollution in orders of magnitude greater than Tesla ever will. The real problem with ICE's is the relative short life cycles of them and the fact that no upper limits on engine size or fuel efficiency is in practice. If every one bought a RR in place of a model T, 99% of them would still be running and there would be substantially less pollution as the embedded pollution in manufacturing & distributing most goods remains decades after the item has been disposed of and that is the real problem . | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3234 Registered: 06-2009 |
Trevor, I can't argue with anything you've said in point of fact. But it is still of the broad class, "the perfect is the enemy of the good." I'd say you're 100% correct about where more "bang for the buck" as far as EV use goes, but as is so very often the case, the consumer market is where "field testing" and product refinement initially occurs before industry is ready to accept something. I am very simply of the mind that we need to be doing something, even an incremental something, that in all probability will lead to the next "something bigger." An eternity could be spent in arguing how to do what needs to be done in the best possible way. And what qualifies as "the best possible way" at this early stage of the game would be open to debate, too. Getting a start, any start, is a far better thing than just standing still with the status quo. The feeling I'm getting from all of the, "What we're doing now is inadequate or poorly placed," arguments is the sense that we should be doing nothing, yet, until some better solution is proposed. From my perspective that's a, "Sorry, but no," proposition. And I'll admit that I may be taking something away that was not intended. But I'm trying to communicate how several of the preceding offerings strike me. It's not an attempt to put words into anyone's mouths. Brian | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2477 Registered: 09-2004 |
However the real problem is to many humans on the planet. End of story! | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 2173 Registered: 04-2009 |
So..... In just over 8 years time there will be no new Internal Combustion cars being sold in the UK. I wonder if that will immediately increase the value of the existing petrol driven cars or if it will very quickly kill off the petrol supply system within the UK? 8 years and 2 months is not a very long time. There have been many U turns that governments have made in the past - I wonder if there will be a U turn on this decision. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 2287 Registered: 05-2012 |
Agreed. The population has doubled in the last 50 years to just under 8 billion. Scary stuff. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 2288 Registered: 05-2012 |
Hi Omar We posted at the same time. It's hard to imagine there will not be a U turn. There seems to be no work being done on expanding the national electric grid and with the banning of gas heating boilers as well I don't know where all the electricity and means to distribute it will come from. Last month the UK had to fire up their last 2 remaining coal fired power stations to prevent large scale power cuts. Apparently the wind wasn't blowing. It will be very interesting to see what happens in the UK over the next 10 years. Has anyone ever wondered what effect the taking of thousands of terawatts of energy out of the atmosphere, with all these wind farms, will have on the climate. Just a thought. | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 298 Registered: 07-2018 |
Yes, too many people. Covid didn't do it's job well enough. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3235 Registered: 06-2009 |
I agree about "too many people." Humanity itself has become a virus of sorts with the planet as its host, but with no other host to jump to once it's killed off the original. Recently, and I think it was in the New York Times, there was an article of a "gloom and doom" nature decrying the negative population growth in a very many nations these days. Even with the issues, particularly economic ones, this will cause all I could think was, "Are you unable to look at the bigger picture?!!" I recall not all that long ago when I posted (here, I think, on Idler Chatter) about the Do It for Denmark! TV ad campaign encouraging its citizens of child bearing age to do just that because of their negative population growth (or population decline, if you prefer). In the final analysis, the earth as a whole needs a whole lot more negative population growth for at least several generations. Even with the upheavals that would entail, I have no doubt that continued population growth would entail even more. Brian | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 259 Registered: 11-2006 |
Because of the Ponzy Scheme / pyramid scheme that most countries have adopted for retirement planning and the whole idea of retirement itself ( different story ) we require an ever increasing income stream from the young to support the old. Add to that the cheap politics of perpetually reducing the direct taxation of individuals & companies, the only solution is massive increases in population . The only government that has done anything about this is China and every Western country pilloried them about the "One Child" policy . Now I am not endorsing the brutal way it was enforced but the policy of no pension if you have more than one child was a sound one and it was the backbone of China's very rapid development as the government could divert a lot of money into technical development & housing that would otherwise have been spent on health & education of children. They coupled this with encouraging students to get educated overseas so the massive cost of building & running universities was out sourced to the West either directly through foreign students or by requiring Western companies to establish local universities Honda built and entire university in order to get the OK for the adjoining auto factories to be built and I have heard that Toyota did the same . Add to that the cultural preference for male children the population of China is around 1/2 of what it would have been now without one child and China has drastically elevated the education of the population , in particularly education of women which goes hand in hand with lower birth rates. As such I would argue that the only country that has done anything concrete to reduce overall world pollution is China. And one of the few things that gets me angry enough to kill is the way all of the Western Governments chastise China for their emissions when nearly all of them are done on behalf of companies with headquarters in the West. The actual pollution per head of population in China for domestic consumption is substantially lower than any Western country. Yes so ideally we would have fewer people on the planet. I have done my bit by not adding any little me's to the overpopulated planet & have suffered endless abuse from those with children for the past 40 years . And I have done even more by supporting to charities that educate underpriveledged both in Australia & overseas. I used to also donate to Global Gardening ( permatculture ) however vested interests were murdering practicioners & instructors to keep impoverished farmers under the control of Western agribusinesses and in perpetual poverty . What I find unbelievable is an educated country like the USA is now repealing laws and forcing women to give birth to children they do not want . But that again is a different story & a long way from EV's | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2328 Registered: 04-2016 |
Spot on about the shipping issue Jeff. Indeed, shipping is the worlds biggest pollutant. Decent countries have rules on the shipping that comes and goes, plus they have strict rules on ships registered in their country. Other “questionable” countries, have very poor rules on ships that are registered in their country, and that is why we see more ships with “Monrovia” or other countries like this, rather than “London” proudly displayed across their stern. Also, Some big manufacturers of cars and trucks are saying we will not be producing internal combustion engines as Omar rightly states in 8 years, in some countries. But guess what, these big manufacturers will still be making internal combustion engines under other names, to be used in countries that don’t have any or little pollution laws. Brian is right, we have to try to do the right thing, and yes it’s like a losing battle, but we do have a clear mind to ensure our kids and their kids have at least a chance. We really need to concentrate on these countries that don’t have any pollution laws, and make sure they start to comply. | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 260 Registered: 11-2006 |
Or reduce the number of ships bringing short life span junk into very wealthy countries. This of course means opening the wallets and being happy to pay a fair & reasonable price for goods such that every one in the supply chain can make a reasonable living. However in most cases we exercise out GREEDY genes and actively search out the absolute cheapest price because bragging about paying less than our neighbours seems to be more important than making sure there will be a planet the grandchildren can live in . As a police friend used to say "if no HONEST law abiding citizens bought stolen goods then no one would steal them " It is not the fault of Moldovia or Panama that the only thing they can do for foreign capital is to flag ships that should have been scrapped . It is the importers in Australia, the USA , the UK that are demanding cheaper rates from the shipping companies that is driving the whole process and they do this because the retailers / wholesalers force them to cut costs because the final purchasers will not pay a fair & reasonable price for anything. A lot of items sold in the EU now have a durability index so I know the engine on this $ 50 line trimer is rated at 50 hours and the engine on the $ 300 trimer is rated at 1000 hours. However the largest consumer market ( USA ) decided that this was too great an expense for the brands to do . So much for having an informed market, which if you remember high school brainwashing was the very basis of a capital demand economy. Every piece of pollution on the planet is YOUR fault & MY fault and the second you think different then the battle to save planet earth has been lost. Every time you open your wallet you either contribute to the destruction of all life on the planet or you do your bit to save the planet, from the food you eat to the vehicles you use to the house you live in to the cloths you wear to the people you vote for. . | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 299 Registered: 07-2018 |
I must be the exception then, I try to avoid stuff from China, mainly because the quality just isn't there. I put in a huge effort to buy my tools from anywhere else, but China, I just spent more then 80.00 bucks on a Starrett wire gauge, to avoid the 15.00 dollar junky one from China. I don't really go anywhere, the last new piece of clothing I bought was a pair of Budgy-Smugglers. I don't drink bottled water, and make a serious effort to avoid things in plastic. I've never owned a new vehicle, the newest one I have ever owned is my 99 Mazda B3000. I'll never waste money on a ugly overpriced junky new vehicle. I've got better thing things to spend upwards of 50 grand on. I could go on and on. I don't seek out the cheapest price, I expect to pay more for local goods _ things not made in China. When one gets into the habit of it, it's doable. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2329 Registered: 04-2016 |
All good points gents, however the list of local made items is now very small, and dwindling by the month. No matter how much you or I want/do to buy local, it soon won’t be possible for a lot of things we need to live or work. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 753 Registered: 10-2008 |
There has been an outcry from the travel industry and their customers in the UK over covid restrictions. The save the planet brigade have campaigned through covid and the Government in there infinite wisdom effectively wishes to ensure a large UK populus cannot have a car as they are substantially on street parked with no possible charging facility. However in peoples eyes it is fine to go to the docks or port and holiday on or via a nice polluting aeroplane or liner ! I call it hypocrisy, when people forgo this I will consider not using my Bentley or my diesel Landrover pickup, which is fairly fundamental to my Agricultural advisory business.( farm tracks destroy cars !). I only ever holiday or travel in the UK as I am unable to fly on medical grounds and have never regretted this. Given the price of EV's, the impracticality of charging for many terraced house and flat owners, I think any UK government banning fossil fuel cars may have a problem at the Ballot Box. Mark | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3236 Registered: 06-2009 |
Patrick Ryan:
It's already not possible where I live, and in much of the United States, for a wide range of items. Between outsourcing of the vast majority of manufacturing of everything, and particularly apparel and shoes, and the lack of small, local retailers, you just cannot buy local. I live in an area that's blessed with a big buy local ethos (which, I have to ashamedly admit, I'm not as big a part of as I should be), particularly in regard to food sources. But you could no sooner find a pair of US made shoes in my town than fly to the moon under the power of your own arms. I'm sure the same is true in virtually every western industrialized nation with regard to certain things, and in certain places. I've never understood why, in the case of the USA, that no recognition of what a national security threat it is to have no in-country manufacturing capacity of significance anymore. There's nothing to mobilize were the need to mobilize to occur. Brian | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 261 Registered: 11-2006 |
You have little choice for tooling. Stanley-Black & Decker now own better than 60% of all tools sold world wide and their aim is to own 100% of the brands which they are well on their way to doing. Tools that we think are made locally with trusted old brand names are mostly made in China then packaged in the country of sale so they can be labelled as "product of *****" in place of made in China / Brazil etc & packaged in UK, USA Aust etc . | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 754 Registered: 10-2008 |
Trevor, I try to by quality second hand or preferably NOS tooling usualy ebay -uk. Much of the new stuff is the same tool under several names eg a pair of tin snips I bought recently; doubt they will last ! Mark | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 300 Registered: 07-2018 |
City of Victoria, that is 1-1/4 hours drive from where I live still makes shoes in the traditional way _ but the cost though, but if the sole wears or something goes wrong, you take them back and get them repaired, they are not thrown away. Unfortunately, all my cross country running shoes, even my cycling shoes are not made in the US or Canada. https://viberg.com/collections/all-footwear | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2478 Registered: 09-2004 |
Looks like China Catl is on the money with the future regarding battery development. https://www.reuters.com/technology/chinas-top-ev-battery-maker-catl-touts-new-sodium-ion-batteries-2021-07-29/ | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2330 Registered: 04-2016 |
Like everyone else here, I try to buy local. The last two things that have needed replacement were a fridge and washing machine. No surprise there is nothing locally made here in Australia as that manufacturer (Electrolux) stopped manufacturing here in 2016. They had been making white goods here in Australia since 1942, and even since the late 1800’s for their Simpson brand. The fridge I bought comes from South Korea, the washing machine is from Germany. Not much you can do. In regards to hand tools, over the last 10 years I have replaced all of my power tools with the Bosch 18v lithium blue professional range. But these tools are made all over the place, one is from France, one from Switzerland, all the rest are from China. All perform well. Recently I was given a hardware store home brand 18v drill/driver and an impact driver. Both are an identical competitor to the blue Bosch tools I have. So what did I do? A full comparison test. On paper the home brand tools are slightly better than the Bosch. However I could not find really in depth specs about their motor, windings and/or drive gear specs. I subjected these two tools to a very hard flogging over a 48 hour period. The home brand tools performed just as well as the Bosch, and I found the metal 13mm keyless chuck on the home brand tool, was far better than the plastic chuck on the Bosch. The biggest thing for me is that the skins for the home brand tool are far cheaper ($49 for the drill driver 13mm skin compared to $199 for the Bosch) and they come with a 5 year full replacement warranty, compared to the Bosch 12 months. I do like buying local if I can, but I also do like value for money as well. At least I can support local jobs, by buying from a local store rather than buying on line. My next big comparison test, is a battery powered lawn mower compared to a petrol lawn mower. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 4021 Registered: 04-2003 |
Patrick, I swapped my petrol Victa lawnmover for a DeWalt Li-ion lawnmower a year or so ago and have been very happy with it on our NSW Mid-North Coast home where you can see the grass growing while you look at it. The mowing performance is great but the heavy cutting involved reduces the battery life considerably and most average home lawn sizes would necessitate a second battery pack to continue mowing whilst the first pack is recharged. I use mine in mulching mode and the cuttings are extremely fine and easily "hosed in" to the lawn after the mowing is completed. I am very happy with the mowing performance but the battery life on heavy growth lawns is not sufficient for anything larger than a small lawn [300 sq metres in my case]. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 2289 Registered: 05-2012 |
That's good news for Californians David - they are banning the sale of IC powered garden equipment early next year, including lawn mowers. | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 262 Registered: 11-2006 |
The difference between the De-Walt & the Victa is the latter has a service life in excess of 100 years as the pistons come in 4 over sizes & the only time I have ever had one bored was either because it was left in water & rusted or it was run on strait petrol Side note they will run quite happily on 100:1 with a modern ashless 2 stroke oil although I run 50:1 in everything. As such the embedded pollution in these mowers gets very close to being negated by the time they are consigned to the recycle bin. Further more as the exhaust is directed into the clippings a lot of the tailpipe emissions stay in the clippings to be broken down by bacteria so never get into the atmosphere in the first place. And finally the maintenance on these engines is 20" of PVC tube + 5 neoprene O rings. Then there is the blades them selves but a battery mower could be fitted with low enery swing back blades if they really wanted to. All that being said, from a convienance point of view, there is a lot going for the battery mower, particularly for the elderly or infirmed who have troubles starting IC engines or people with small lawns. Battery powered tools do have a place However marketing them or purchasing them as environmentially friendly & pollution reducing is total BS And then there is the problem of forced replacement because the factory stops making the battery which is unique to that tool. Millions of 6V LiIron tools have been sent ( mostly ) to landfill, along with their chargers because 6V as replaced with 12 V which is also by & large being phased out in favour of 18 V which has already been superceeded by 24V or 40V for bigger mowers. So it is pollution on pollution on pollution in the false name of reducing pollution. | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 263 Registered: 11-2006 |
California is a weird place. I fear all of the recreational drugs taken & the high UV has done perminent damage to the brains of the population. For the past 25 years the USA has made all petrol powered equipment in 2 variations, Cal compliant & rest of the USA compliant , we get both down here. To understand the absolute stupidity of it, the Cal Toro mowers have a bolt where the grease nipples go, so the service technician has to clean the area, remove the bolt, fit a grease nipple grease the bearings, clean the expelled grease off then replace the bolt, because grease nipples have been known to fail & leak grease . A 24Hp ( way too big ) engine on a Cal mower is only compliant for 3 years so in theory must be replaced every 3 years, the same engine in the rest of the USA is compliant for 7 years. And this is in a state where 1/2 the population drives to the shops in a Hummer or an SUV with a 10 litre engine. It is also the State that banned Glycophosphate because one statician in a lab found that "there is a possibility that there could be a yet to be determined causational effect between use of Round Up and some types of cancers " When I buy mower blades from the USA they must have a warning that "these blades contain Nickel a substance known to have a link to cancer if injested " A warning about being sharp and being known to remove fingers hands & feet might have been more appropriate | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2331 Registered: 04-2016 |
Oh dear Trev, Californian laws  This is very much like Japans laws, however I am yet to hear Japan banning IC garden equipment. You hit the nail on the head. These things in no way reduce pollution, they are mainly for convenience. My wife and I travel with all the petrol powered devices I have to her elderly mothers place so we can do all her yard maintenance. This is the main reason I want to swap to battery powered. The mower I am looking at (as well as the DeWalt David) is very lightweight, has telescopic handles as well as folding, it is extremely powerful and takes 2 x 18v batteries, yet only weighs 12kg. I will hopefully have a new toy by the weekend to use on my lawn. | ||
| Jeff McCarthy Frequent User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 691 Registered: 05-2007 |
Patrick I can vouch for electric mowers being a radical improvement a far as ease of use is concerned - lighter to carry, easier to start and also to push. Mine was rechargeable. I once bought something with a label that said: "This product may cause cancer in California" Luckily I lived in NSW... | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3237 Registered: 06-2009 |
I used to have a battery powered Lawn Boy mower, which I loved in every respect except battery life (even with a brand new battery - not lithium ion) and the angle at which they'd attached the handle, which was not adjustable and just too low and at too shallow an angle for me. I currently have a now very old Husqvarna petrol powered mower, but I plan on going with a cordless electric model when replacement time comes. Batteries and battery life has just become so much better, and these mowers tend to be so much lighter so that any form of self-propulsion is not necessary for my lawn. I should be looking at "end of season" sales right now, but other things are going on and I think I can get at least one more season out of "the old girl" that I currently have. Brian | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2332 Registered: 04-2016 |
Jeff, That’s amazing about warning stickers. Almost unbelievable. Brian, How many years is it now that you have said “one more year from the old girl” ? Great mowers, I had one a few years ago. Husqvarna also now do a range of battery mowers along with Stihl. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2479 Registered: 09-2004 |
Will the Rolls Royce Spectre have sodium-ion batteries? BMW have in the past, late eighties been developing sodium type batteries(E1). All clever stuff! https://www.autodaily.com.au/why-sodium-ion-batteries-could-be-the-next-big-thing/ | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2333 Registered: 04-2016 |
Let’s hope they have something ultra modern and not so offensive to the environment Pat. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3238 Registered: 06-2009 |
Patrick, I've only been thinking "one more year" maybe last year, and definitely this year. I'm a "run 'em till they drop" person and the engine on the thing still runs like a top. I am getting deck rust, though, and have even patched a couple of spots over the last several years to get more time out of her. But the time is nigh, if not here. Brian | ||
| Jeff Young Frequent User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 453 Registered: 10-2010 |
I was a hold-out and only switched to a battery mower last year. But I gotta say, the Stihl I got (RMA 2 RT) is the boss. (I do still use petrol chain saws and hedge trimmers, FWIW.) | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 755 Registered: 10-2008 |
Cost of the Stihl above with a second battery is 2.5 times that of a electric start petrol of similar size in the UK.Also my last petrol mower did 15 seasons, how long will batteries last. I am not yet convinced. Mark | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2334 Registered: 04-2016 |
Well Brian, I do hope she has a nice send off. Jeff, I saw a man with a twin 18v battery chainsaw working n cut door. I have to admit it was full on, and nothing stopped it. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3239 Registered: 06-2009 |
I have little doubt that electric powered mowers, chain saws, blowers, and similar will have very long service lives based on the electric (battery) powered power tools including impact wrenches, drills, saws, and more that I've been working with when building sets for theater productions for some time now. And they tend to be a lot less finicky than IC powered things like lawn mowers/leaf blowers. A friend has a battery powered chain saw and I love it compared to my conventional corded one. I've never had a petrol powered chain saw just because I didn't have the need for what I was cutting. And that battery powered unit cuts every bit as well as the corded one and petrol powered ones I have used (infrequently) in the past. I don't expect a battery to last 15 seasons. But I expect the thing powered by that battery to do so, easily. Brian | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 264 Registered: 11-2006 |
Like most things in life, you only get the quality you pay for and paying high price is no guarantee of getting high quality. I am on a lot of small engine / garden care forums and the most common post about battery tools is "where can I get a battery for XYZ ? ' and in many cases they are just a few years old . After that controller failures seem to be fairly common and I put that down to stowage in unsuitable environments . In some places garages will need to be dehumidified . Battery power is a convenience thing and yes I have supplied battery powered tools ( mainly chainsaws ) to my customers who can no longer start their petrol ones . My only concern with battery devices is few if any have removable keys so too easy for curious child to find out what this ( usually yellow or red ) thing does if I squeeze it . Where lock outs are fitted they are poorly designed ( not limited to battery tools ) so owners generally velcro them. I am a big fan of pull pin safety switches as found on jet skis & trail bikes . To any of you thinking about battery yard equipment please choose big brand name tools that use a battery that is common to a lot of other tools. Also always recharge them in a fire proof place with good ventilation. I use the welding bench for my tools and the laundry sink for phones & cameras . A fault with the charging system can cause the battery to ignite and as we all know once redox reaction becomes unregulated it can not be stopped till one of the reagents is fully consumed or the products of combustion exceed their partial pressure equilibrium point . The tiny energy content of a mobile phone is not as much a potential problem as the massive amount in a power tool battery. | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 265 Registered: 11-2006 |
As for battery type, this is the elephant in the room for EV's There is a Japanese Aluminium battery almost ready to go into production with a higher energy discharge rate but lower energy density than the current Lithium batteries. Thus we can very well end up in a situation where we have a dozen different battery types requiring a dozen different recharging schedules so the EV we buy today might not be able to have new batteries fitted when the old ones expire. Add to that multiple systems drop the volume feed to the recycling / reclaiming plants making environmentally disposal of them uneconomic so it will be another case of find a deep hole in the ocean & bombs away. I was not aware of the Zn-Br battery system till alerted to it here and can not for the life of me understand why any power company would use LI batteries for grid back up in a situation where it's prime benefits ( compactness & weight ) are irrelevant. As for bolting a Li bomb to the side of my house, dancing with the devil. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 756 Registered: 10-2008 |
Trevor, A friend of mine had recently completed the refurbishment of his house, put his drill battery on charge in his study and is now living in a caravan whilst the insurers pay for a complete house rebuild ! The battery exploded and the house literally burnt out. Your warning is very appropriate. I would not sleep happily with a car charging in my attached garage or next to my property and my drill batteries are charged outside. | ||
| Jeff Young Frequent User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 454 Registered: 10-2010 |
A friend of mine killed his electric chain saw because without the "trigger" of running out of petrol he was constantly forgetting to refill the chain oil.... (Not to say that's a reason not to get one; I just thought it was an interesting case of the "law of unintended consequences".) | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3240 Registered: 06-2009 |
It's all about tolerance for risk. Lithium ion batteries are, quite literally, ubiquitous and the number of charging incidents, relative to the number of batteries and chargers out there is very, very low indeed. My phones are on charge all the time, in the den, when not in use. My garage is detached, but the tool chargers are in there and not going anywhere. My father was once safety supervisor for our regional postal center, and his degree of anal-retentiveness about safety (well beyond reasonable precautions) used to drive me insane. I worry about the reasonably probable, not the remotely possible, in all instances. We all have to do what we're comfortable with. Some of us are more comfortable with risk (of many sorts) than others are. But if I were to worry about charging lithium ion batteries my laptops, phones, and tools would have to have a dedicated shed for charging. Based on frequency of destructive incidents with charging lithium batteries, for me, that's a hard no. Brian | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 301 Registered: 07-2018 |
HP had enough of a problem with certain laptop models and specific batteries, that they had a recall. Even though there may have been very few batteries that actually exploded, considering the amount of them out there, it must have been a quality control issue that was over-looked. And there lies the problem, you never know what is going to happen, and what can happen. No one ever thinks about exploding batteries and until it happens. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2335 Registered: 04-2016 |
This is a very interesting part of the discussion. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 758 Registered: 10-2008 |
The Assessor dealing with my friend's disaster commented that the problem was far from unusual. My daughter in law had a dashcam catch fire in her car recently. Fortunately on the sight of smoke, she threw it out of the car. No harm done, but my 3 year old granddaughter was also in the car. Fortunately a very prompt refund from the supplier who suggested it may have been caused by the hot weather ( about 27c in the UK !!), my daughter in law who is a Cockney/Aussie does not suffer fools !! | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 4022 Registered: 04-2003 |
Mark, "hot weather ( about 27c in the UK !!)" A great British oxymoron contribution mate - I am standing by for "reverse fire" in our traditional Australian/British competition of "taking the mickey out of each other"!!!!!!!  | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 302 Registered: 07-2018 |
I guess that's unusual for the UK, but we got that beat. It was nearing 30 and above for over a week and it finally topped out at 41, and stayed at 40 for a few days, but didn't really drop much below 30 after that. Of the 56 years that I lived on the West Coast here in Canada, that was a first. My lake felt like a heated pool ! | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3241 Registered: 06-2009 |
Jeff Martin:
And so did Samsung, with the Note 9. But we're right back to, "in the grand scheme of things, it's a drop in the ocean." If lithium ion batteries posed a real, persistent danger they would, literally, have died out in the marketplace. Yet they've come to dominate the world at this juncture. There probably as many lithium ion battery burning and/or explosion issues as there are automotive fuel tank explosions. And I'd be willing to bet that automotive engine fires (though, admittedly, not when parked for the most part) are far more common. But they are uncommon enough in modern cars that I know of very few people indeed who routinely carry fire extinguishers in their daily drivers. So, again, for myself, there are lots of other things I'd be inclined to worry about and take active steps to avert first. Brian | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 266 Registered: 11-2006 |
Risk mittigation is of course a personal thing. However for me it is no great problem to run battery stuff till flat then put it on the steel welding bench to charge, particulalry as I have 3 GPO's of different types at the bench . As for the inside stuff, again a double GPO right by the laundry tub and a new shelf to accomodate the massive number of chargers that must be breeding some where . Up side of this I can always find the right charger because it is there on the shelf. Coming back from bankruption, the amount of spare cash available for equipment replacement or even adequate insurance is very limited . While stastically the chances are very low, so are the chances of winning the lottery but millions of people buy tickets every week. And if you take this forum as a rough guide in the small number of people here x 10 for close associates we have a house gone . Finding a safe place to recharge is not difficult to do. I feel it is the old case of familiarity breeding complatiency . As for bolting a Power Wall to the side of a house , way too risky. I have been here for 9 years and to date have replaced the outside switch board twice from lightning strikes with the resulting fire. Last one was killer as the board had to be uprated with all the new safety gear so it set me back $ 2500 . The internal ( in the garage ) board went up as well one time we drilled some holes in the wall & it now resides on the outside with a steel flame hob over the top that the wagtails seem to like to nest on top of . Right now the number of people with EV's is very low down here and the number of Power Walls is lower still . When these increase I would expect to see the numbers go up in proportion. And of course with EV's most would be charging overnight while the owners are asleep, never seen a garage / carport with a smoke detector so unless they go off with a bang most would be unaware of the fire till the red & blue flashing lights wake them up. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 2290 Registered: 05-2012 |
There's a very interesting discussion on youtube with the chairman of JCB on the impracticability of using batteries on heavy duty machinery and their solution to the problem using hydrogen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Q7nAYjAJY | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 303 Registered: 07-2018 |
Brian, I don't think the technology is at fault, it's more likely poor quality control with cheap parts, I'm back to that "junk from China". | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2336 Registered: 04-2016 |
Wow, I must be different then  I also have another one at the other end of the garage.  | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 759 Registered: 10-2008 |
Having had a couple of minor fire at home, caused by welding, I have a co2 and foam extinguishers on each floor of the house, in the workshop and in the garage.All of my cars have a 2 litre foam extinguisher. Car fires in the UK are not uncommon particularly diesels on motorways. Jeff is I think correct, most of the problem is "Sh*t from China " unfortunately most products seem to stem from there regardless of final cost. David the record UK temp this year was 32 C. Now back to 14c by day, 9c at night. Mark | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 760 Registered: 10-2008 |
Went to a ballroom dance weekend in Blackpool last week. One of the taxi drivers carrying us from our hotel to the Tower Ballroom commented that he had just replaced the battery in his hybrid, £ 1800+ fitting from the dealers but a recon battery was only £500 fitted. Wonder what the control standards are on reconditioning ? Looking forward to next year when hopefully our American and Aussie friends can return to the uk and compete with us for the Pro Am championships- they usually win !!.but Jackie and I keep practicing we may succeed ! Mark | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2337 Registered: 04-2016 |
Mark, I have heard plenty of rumblings about new V recon car batteries. It would be interesting to know what they do to claim they are reconditioned? | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 267 Registered: 11-2006 |
When you talk about questionable quality parts from China, remember that the factory produced EXACTLY what they were asked to produce by retailers in the UK, USA, Aust etc etc. It is greedy directors chasing excessive profits with minimal capital outlay who are dragging junk out of third world countries to sell the first world countries at exponential profit margins that is the first problem. I have carried bales of shirts out of India with a price on the airway bill of 25¢ each add the airfreight & my delivery fee that brought them up to just under $1.00 each. The shop keeper took them strait out of the bales and onto racks marked " Special was $ 100 now $ 50 " and idiots were literally fighting over them If I made one that badly, my mother would have ripped it off my back , unpicked it and made me sew it together again properly. The second stage problem is that Chinese factories sell 100% of what comes off the production line , so the big box of QC rejects get on sold to a smaller factory who will attempt to repair the faulty parts then on sell them into the wholesale market. The ones they can not fix get sold into the scrap market and again bought by other factories who will fix or bodge them and again sell into the wholesale market This cycle continues till eventually they do get broken apart for scrap. This system could not work without , first world platforms like Amazon , Ebay , Craigs List, Gumtree, etc etc etc which allow a retailer to be totally annonomous to the purchaser . Ebay & Amazon could check the provenance of their vendors but all they want is the selling fees & advertising revenue. | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 268 Registered: 11-2006 |
I have no idea where Fortescue sourced them from but in an interview on Tuesday it was stated that had been trialing hydrogen powered equipment at two of their mine sites and would be running a hydrogen powered train within the next 2 years. All of their trucks will be hydrogen powered and the Chairman Mr Forest has gone into partnership with several companies to build a solar powered hydrogen plant in Qld which I presume would have hydrogen powered generators as back up. Way way way back in my uni days UNSW had a working solar hydrogen still hooked up to a generator . There was one on the roof of the physics building and another on the roof of engineering. They had a field research plant in Fiji so all the professors & post grads could do a paid for trip to Fiji every holiday period. Now that was over 40 years ago why nothing has been heard about it I have no idea but the fact that the Australian government under wrote the building of the national gas pipeline grid shortly afterwards probably has something to do with it. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3242 Registered: 06-2009 |
Jeff Martin:
The following is not a slap at you, personally, but I am so very, very over "Junk from China" as a general trope. The Chinese are capable of manufacturing the entire quality range, from out and out junk, to the very finest, and have been making those two and everything in between for years now. It's a matter of the spec to which the ultimate marketer wishes the thing to be made (substitute "equipment manufacturer" or whatever appropriate when component parts are contracted out). Just because it's made in China has NOT meant it's junk, of necessity, for a long time now. When I see this trope being used, I immediately recall how, "Made in Japan," was a similar (and formerly accurate) trope in use during my youth that hung around for much longer than it was accurate. Brian | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3243 Registered: 06-2009 |
Trevor Hodgekinson:
Sorry I hadn't read this before my immediately prior message. I broke my own rule about reading through everything before offering anything else. My sentiments directly support your assertion above. But, that being said, Amen!! Brian | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 269 Registered: 11-2006 |
Well 2 of us saying the same thing then it must be true . Junk parts come from whatever country that has a factory deperate enough for foreign currency that they will make anything for any body at any quality level . It is a sad enditement upon Western culture that the more wealth we have the cheaper we become and then we blame the supplier when the parts made to the price we are willing to pay fail to perform to our expectations. I regularly need to go to EU sites to get parts bread downs & machine speciications. A great many of them now contain durability indexes or service life expectations. Quite an eye opener when you see line trimmer engines with a service life of < 20 hours , the on line retailers sell them by the container load and the owners seem to get offended if I tell them that is is a 2 year old tool that has a 6 month service life & I will not even try to fix it , so now it is my fault they have to buy a new one. Generally if a product is good it will be both branded and have a serial number . If it has neither then it can be considered to be of such poor quality that the factory does not want any one to know who made it . |
