| Author | Message | ||
     Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 702 Registered: 2-2013 |
Yes indeedy Chickadees, Jetsetters and those Gentlemen into Scalliwag Caper. An often touted advice on this forum is to purchase as best as you can find AND check that the car has a documented full service history. Sophisticated coverups are hard to detect. However, I think I am pretty damn good at spotting them if I view the car in person. Moreover, having gleaned many contributions in this forum I have vastly increased my knowledge of what to look for. Looking at a 1984 Spirit (and cursing the fact there is no triple black Spur on the market) this time I am told it is the best in Australia. Perhaps maybe and perhaps maybe not. A premium price of $46K is asked because its only got 55K on the speedo and it was from a deceased estate and was in storage for 15 years. I have received vague answers about the service records during that 15 years. When a seller gives me a vague answer absolutely there is a large Scary alarm in my brain the goes off immediately and my mind starts operating in overdrive. Plus my immediate reaction is that I am being lied to and yes I don't like it but there is more. The good chap says this 84 has mineral oil in its braking system and that he has changed all four accumulators. Yes that's right 4 not 2. FOUR. MUST CHECK THIS OUT. These were changed because the nitrogen attacks the rubber seals. Asked when the car was last started the answer was maybe six months ago. Six months here is being touted as often. The rest of the car apart from the exhaust balance pipe and the stereo is "original". So that must mean the exhaust system and all the coolant hoses are perfect. He recommends using a major car transporter rather than driving it because of stone chips etc. Now this is all from an engineer who claims he does all his own servicing. Asked about the coolant changes he says every two years. I thought it had to be changed every year. Perhaps I am being a bit harsh on the elderly chap trying to sell it. Or perhaps the chances of finding a good Spur or Spirit in as new or even good condition WITH all the service records in place is like finding large gold nuggets floating out in the Queensland ocean swimming distance from the beach. The fact that I requested a full set of photos and got ones of his other cars and photos already on the net did not increase my trust gland especially when told those were the only photos available because he has to shift other cars to get the Spirit out yes well as excuses go that's a pretty lousy one. I will have to travel 1800 kilometers to see this car and I have a horrible feeling that if I travel that far to find my chain is being yanked a true out there Soviet critical mass situation may evolve in a microsecond. Right now I have huge doubts that best in Australia is about to be discovered. There is this notion that a car that has been sitting for one and a half decades is some sort of a marvel. Right now - not amused. Seriously, thinking of snapping Omar into a headlock upon arriving in Dubai until he sells me one of his cars and the cursing him for a day or two for selling his black Spur to somebody else and especially for a KITCHEN!!!! | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 510 Registered: 4-2015 |
Vladimir... I suspect that "best in Australia" really means "best in his section of Australia" which means "best in his garage in Australia"...or some such foolery. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 704 Registered: 2-2013 |
I suspect Christian that you are dead right. Perhaps I need to get used to the reality that finding a good Spur or Spirit with all the records is going to be in itself an expensive time gobbling monster. Perhaps I should just land in LA throw myself down the pavement full of embedded stars screaming help and hope Nicholas Cage appears with a cold Russian beer for me. But am I right that there are only two accumulators and not four? | ||
| Roderick Waite Prolific User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 158 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Vladimir - not easy! I'll first answer your question - the 1984 Spirit has 4 gas accumulators, as Paul Yorke will confirm as he flogged me the 4 for my car - also a 1984 Spirit - that I bought sight-unseen as the car was in England and I live in France. I loved the colour in the photo (Willow Gold), but she had no service history and had done 95,000 miles (155,000 km). The owner told me she was in average condition, but the bodywork was sound (my only stipulation). The clincher was that he offered to deliver her to my house in France if I'd pay the fares and the petrol. He evidently had faith in his car, to drive nearly 700 miles (1100 km), most of it in a foreign country! So I parted with £9,000 and he duly arrived with Echo (her chassis is ECH 09680). That was over 7 years ago now, and I've gradually restored her mechanically - transmission, brakes, air conditioning, suspension, ignition - she's never let me down, but time takes its toll, and the price I paid allows a little leeway! Your price sounds very ambitious to me - she'll surely need new tyres and battery as well as accumulators, and all the oils changed, probably a reverse flush too, and what about the upholstery? But in my view, the 1984 Spirit is the epitome of elegance, a beautiful car, and still a 'proper' car, with SU carburettors and no turbo to worry about. Love her to bits ... Rod | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 705 Registered: 2-2013 |
So I should have researched more as it appears my Camargue has two accumulators while Spurs and Spirits have four. A bit like the old four legs good two legs bad or vice versa. Well in any case as I am using the money of professional thieves ie the bank, I will have to take great care and exercise immense patience with the sellers seeking wood ducks. I am after one in an attractive colour and that means brown is out. Also seeking one that has dark wood in its interior trim. Prefer the Spur to the Spirit so with my trusty flashlight and dental mirror I will go hunting for the leaking weep holes and other tell tales to avoid purchasing mutton dressed up as lamb of which there seems no shortage. | ||
| Roderick Waite Prolific User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 159 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Vladimir - just for fun I'll attach a picture of Echo in Willow Gold - see if you like the colour! The woodwork is dark walnut and the upholstery cream.  Rod | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1072 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Vlad, The headlock would end up in a snapped neck if I also tell you that the black Spur was triple black with dark wood.... I will dig out a photo soon and scan it. Yes that was in the days of hard copy photos... But.... my neck can be released from your headlock after you learn that the car was fuel injected. I am on the other side of the fence with respect to Fuel Injection Vs Carbs. I like fuelie cars better. Enjoy the hunt mate. Rod - that colour is lovely!! Now I thought willow gold in the Shadow era had a tinge of green. Am I mistaken? Omar | ||
| Roderick Waite Prolific User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 160 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Omar - I don't know - I've never seen a Shadow in that colour. I've never seen any other RR in that colour, come to that! Not only does it suit the car, it doesn't show the dirt either, which I fancy your Spur did! Black is wonderful, but has to be the most demanding of colours to keep looking that way! Glad you're a carby fan - me too - the car is alive and breathing. Let us wish Vladimir the very best of luck in his quest ... Rod | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1074 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Rod, You are right about Black cars!! After my black spur I swore not buy another black car. It needed to be washed twice a day to keep it looking good. A few years later I forgot that pain and now I have a black Azure and a Black Continental.... Some people never learn!!! Omar | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 709 Registered: 2-2013 |
That's a very elegant colour Roderick. Your car has the same type of hubcaps/wheel covers as my Camargue. You are a lucky chap to have such a nice car at such a lean price. Here is OZ its as if the Monster Raving Looney Party was announcing the prices of classic cars. Not at all out of the question to find dealers and private owners asking twit prices for trash. I once saw a Spirit in a Sydney car yard that looked like its previously owner had dogs with sharp nails jumping up on its bumpers continuously for years so obviously one could deduce the condition of the rest of the car if the owner had that type of class. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1065 Registered: 4-2016 |
Here is one of our club members Spirits in the same colour. A first rate car. He looks after it like a baby and is very proud of it.  | ||
| Roderick Waite Prolific User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 162 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Vladimir - glad you like the colour - I bought the car on the strength of it! We don't have dogs - but we do have cats, and never a day goes by without I have to wash their muddy footprints off Echo - bonnet, roof, boot, and both front and read screens. At least they have good taste - it seems you have passed on the original car? I imagine looking for a car in Australia is difficult because of the huge distances! Hello Patrick - I've now seen another Willow Gold car! But the wheel-trims are different, and I can't see any headlamp wash-wipers? I thought they were standard on Series 1 Spiritis? | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1073 Registered: 4-2016 |
Sorry Roderick. I can't answer those for you. But I will ask the owner when next I see him. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 399 Registered: 10-2008 |
Rod my 1982 Spirit had headlamp washers and wheel trims, which were the same as later Shadows. My current 1983 Mulsanne has the Shadow type wheel trims. Mark | ||
| Alan Dibley Experienced User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2009 |
Spurs/Spirits have two accumulators and two suspension spheres. Because they all look the same I suppose people call them all accumulators. The two accumulators are the mineral oil equivalents of the two in Shadows. They are identical to Citroen accumulators for CXs and several other oleo/pneumatic Cits that use LHM. The two spheres in the rear suspension are RR-only spec with a much lower charge pressure than any Citroen types. | ||
| Roderick Waite Prolific User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 164 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Alan - you have me worried now. I believe that the Citroen type spheres are charged at a much lower pressure than the RR ones - something like half - and all 4 spheres are identical. I don't recall any differentiation on the 4 boxes they came in, and they've been on the car for 4 years with no discernible problems. | ||
| Alan Dibley Experienced User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 43 Registered: 10-2009 |
Roderick, it's been a few years since I had a Spirit, but I remember that the accumulator specs were identical to Cit accumulator specs (400cc 62bar Cit part no 5 437 654), the suspension spheres are also 400cc but about 20bar. The pressure is mentioned in the Spirit tech info which I don't have now, though I have reams of Citroen stuff. Look it up in your maintenance manual if you can. Fitting low-charge spheres in the braking circuit will still allow the brakes to work OK but reduce the number of braking actions after pump input stops. Fitting high-charge spheres in the suspension units will (I think) make the suspension feel harsh, but quite how much is not clear. The brake accumulators are definitely identical to Citroen spheres, but of course, if my recollection of the suspension sphere charge pressure is wrong then so am I (not the first time). Alan D. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1736 Registered: 6-2006 |
I hate this bloody double click to post system. . . . sorry if I sound short in my reply. Similar, close, same colour is NOT acceptable in the slightest. Accumulators as gas springs, gas springs as accumulators . . . bloody forget it. Low reserve and too big too fit as accumulators. Rock hard suspension as gas springs. Same crap if you start fitting Citroen ones that 'look or seem similar'. Just fit the right ones. The treads are the same, that's it. Gas springs are too long to fit as accumulators so it's pretty hard to mix them up without butchering things. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1737 Registered: 6-2006 |
Full service history - not worth a penny as far as future maintenance costs are involved if it is over 10 years old. A great way for sellers to charge extra though. Don't be taken in by it. Get one that has been serviced regularly RECENTLY. One owner from new? I find that many owners get lax once they have had a car for years or do not notice the deterioration. I have found that when somebody new takes ownership of a RR or B they tend to spend quite a bit to fix all the little niggles that the previous owner 'learnt' to ignore. So a few more owners is not always a disadvantage. Once again, sorry if these replies sound a little short . . . already lost them twice! LOL. Well even more brief and terse than usual  | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 711 Registered: 2-2013 |
Paul it would be greatly appreciated if you would write a larger article on the sphere situation and also on the fuel injection reliability especially on fuel pumps and their life span. Looking at Japanese delivery scaznooooecho9651 thanks vladimir | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1738 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Vladamir, Buy the spheres off me, FS, or Introcar. (in that order, LOL). There is a place in France as well. They are cheap and easy to fit. Nothing complicated. Low Pump down test results for accumulators. Replace them. Harsh rear suspension . . bit like being in a wheel barrow race. Replace them. LHM is much more friendly than RR363 / DOT brake fluids. Injection cars are more complicated than the SU cars but still really reliable as well. Injectors can clog but can usually be cleaned. Most people will not even notice. Check that the injection on that car is not the earlier type which is a pain. From memory, Japan, California and Switzerland got Fuel injection and CATs earlyer before the Bosh Motronic system 86 on and that early system can be a RPITA and make things tricky to work on in the engine bay. I don't think you will need a cat car. The most important thing is to not run the tank lower than 1/4. Cavitation will occur when accelerating up hills and cornering making the pump noisy. Injected cars have Seat ECUs - get the batteries changed. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 712 Registered: 2-2013 |
Its got cats and I think it may be the earlier injection system which the vendor claims has not given trouble for 115000 miles but he has replaced the injectors. How do I decide whether it is the troublesome one? Also he claims the speedo was replaced at 100,000 with another used speedo which is why the present speedo is over 200000k Hmmnn | ||
| Roderick Waite Prolific User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 165 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Paul! I was hoping to hear from you, and you instantly banished my doubts and fears! I remembered at once that the accumulators were roundish and the gas springs were definitely oval - brain had completely blanked that out - so of course they only fit in the right places! In my defence, it was 4 years ago (I think!) ... thanks! | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1739 Registered: 6-2006 |
Rod, unbelievably I have found a couple of cars with gas springs7 fitted as accumulators. Butchered is not an exaggeration. Vladimir, if you look at a photo of the engine the air intake has 3 bolts in the very top (maybe 4) where the intake goes into the first unit. The later one has a rounded top. Most noticeably, there is much more room around the engine. I guess if the rest of the car is pretty perfect it would be preferable to a less perfect car with the later fI system. Speedo.. . Some people do the strangest things. It should be pretty obvious if a car has done 115k or 200k really. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 713 Registered: 2-2013 |
Paul have you ever changed one of these cars from the earliest fuel injection set ups to the later. I suppose if worse came to worse and the car annoyed me by breakings down I could use my Camargue intake with the holley but wondering if the ignition system and camshaft is any different. I definitely prefer carburettor to fi for quick roadside diagnosis. I will buy from you if you can closely match FS price because you do give your valued input to the forum and I am certain it is much read and appreciated by all. Vlad | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1076 Registered: 4-2009 |
I buy (almost exclusively) from Paul for that exact reason. His prices are good - his service is good and he is a good chap on the forum - what more could we ask for? | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 714 Registered: 2-2013 |
Omar you evil creature why did you not tell me?Having a look at a 1984 Spur next Monday so expect future blame soon. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1742 Registered: 6-2006 |
Vladimir, the early system is not so bad as to think of throwing it and fitting the later set up. We get very few of them here in the UK. The last Shadows had the same system. It's just bulky and complicated and makes things like pump seals a RPITA. Good luck with the search. Perhaps Monday's is the one!! | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1078 Registered: 4-2009 |
I accept blame for all things evil on this forum. To that i will repent when we meet in London in September. Let the amber nectar roll to ensure adequate punishment is had by all who deserve such punishment. Gore is also guilty by proxy in all this... as is Patrick Ryan... Also Beech is no goody goody shoes either - he needs to start planning for 2018.... Best we take this chat to the appropriate thread..... | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 716 Registered: 2-2013 |
Here here what what and Silver Spur over the foot of the unwashed! |
