| Author | Message | ||
     Richard Greene New User Username: benzjag Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2012 |
I am in North Carolina (USA)and looking for a nice Silver Shadow that has mechanical issues or a Shadow that has been converted to an American drivetrain. Any leads appreciated! Please respond to email below. Thanks! Richard benzjag@hotmail.com | ||
| Robert Gardner Experienced User Username: bobg Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2012 |
Did you find your Shadow ? | ||
| Richard Greene Experienced User Username: benzjag Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2012 |
No. I had 2 contacts, but the cars were beyond repair (rust, interior trashed, etc.). | ||
| Robert Gardner Experienced User Username: bobg Post Number: 24 Registered: 12-2012 |
Sent you an e-mail with description and photos | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3268 Registered: 4-2003 |
Sorry for this, but good Silver Shadow mechanicals are the easy and least expensive parts to replace even with new parts. Finding a good chassis, body and interior in need of just a motor. Just forget it. RT. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 638 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Richard, You are right in your response for cars in Europe and Australia. I have lived in America and have found that car ownership in America is different to car ownership in other countries. If you have an American drivetrain in your car in America you are no longer a prisoner of the town that you live in. The world is your oyster and you can travel from anywhere to anywhere without fear of hugely expensive towing and repair bills. I have seen many converted cars - and whereas I personally would'nt buy one - there are many that swear by them. Many years ago I had a Daimler Doublesix that was more expensive to run than my Silver Spur. I converted it to an GM V8 (as is common practice in America) and the bills became less than half. I was later able to sell the car at a premium because it was suddenly not a "maintenance nightmare". Omar | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1903 Registered: 6-2009 |
Omar, And I doubt that attitude regarding "no longer being a prisoner" is limited to the United States. When you look at the cars that show up at breakers the main reason is not that they are unrepairable, but that they are not economically feasible to keep running. When it comes to cars from Crewe unless you're a dedicated DIYer or live in one of a handful of major metropolitan areas there is no one, and I mean no one, who knows anything about maintaining these cars. I became a DIYer out of a combination of necessity and after figuring out that, by and large, if I was careful about what I was doing and did my homework first my own efforts would be as good as or superior to those of technicians I could pay to do work. I've never considered an engine transplant on either of my cars, but understand why a number of people have not felt the same. Having a Rolls-Royce that, like your Daimler, can have routine maintenance performed with ease "even in the middle of nowhere, if necessary" definitely has a certain appeal. I also don't feel that cars of the post-coachbuilt era are defined as much by their mechanicals as by their bodywork and interiors. If an automobile has an engine that is up to the task of moving the rest of it and in a style that's congruent with the style of the car itself then that's fine by me. I'd rather see a Rolls-Royce kept on the road with a GM engine than sent to be broken apart for parts. (In the Shadow era in particular there was no resistance to using some pretty significant GM content straight from the factory). Brian | ||
| Patrick Ryan Prolific User Username: patrick_r Post Number: 187 Registered: 4-2016 |
Some great points there Brian. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 639 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Brian, Great perspective - you are bang on the money with your comments. Also as you say - a Shadow is very GM right from the word go. The Daimler lacked refinement after I changed the engine. I have never driven a GM powered Rolls-Royce to comment on it. Does anyone know if the difference is acceptable or intolerable? | ||
| Patrick Ryan Prolific User Username: patrick_r Post Number: 189 Registered: 4-2016 |
Good post Richard. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3270 Registered: 4-2003 |
Omar, My point ? Even major engine troubles are relatively inexpensive to rectify compared to everything else on a neglected Silver Shadow. There are many converted Jaguars/Daimlers in Australia from the XJ6/12 Series I-Series II and XJS in Australia, mostly with iron GM350 motors. Some ate quite successful albeit a bit crude and managed to extend the vehicle life by maybe a decade. I have done two myself. There is a handful of converted Silver Shadows here too, and some are known to be quite acceptable. The only one I have driven felt like a late Silver Spirit engine-wise probably due to the firing order – not really smooth like the earlier Crewe V8s – but the braking system is always problematic with the conversion. That one had a Citroën DS21 rotary brake pump fitted where an air pump may have been on a Chevrolet. It did the job, but the spheres were awkwardly located under the mudguard/fender.. Interesting reading is the development of the Crewe V8. North America had practically no influence on the design whatsoever as it turns out. There was more Chrysler influence than any other, and that was limited to the hydraulic lifters. There was no other alloy motor with wet liners vaguely resembling the Cloud II motor. General Motors is nowhere to be seen on the Crewe V8. Only the transmission was basically common to Crewe and GM due to the pioneering work of GM leading to the Hydramatic being adopted in 1952 for the R-Type Bentley. That relationship lasted until the4L80E was finally dropped for the later Arnages in favour of ZF. The short adoption of limited GM-Delco electrics in 1946 was abandoned in 1962. What regularly happens here is that a presentable Silver Shadow is bought for $15-20K. Maybe less. The new owner will spend anything from $20k to the sky for a cosmetic refurbishment - more for rusty secondhand imports. All done ? Drive it into a specialist and it will need $12k for brake rotors, pads, hoses, suspension bushes, ball joints and maybe another $2k for front shock absorbers including fitting. That is to be roadworthy as the previous owner has not spent the $5k needed yearly for routine R&M for five tears or so. In the rare case where the motor has been damaged due to neglect, that only less than doubles. Drive in with an engine transplant and no B-R/B specialist (i.e. non-franchised) will touch it. That is after someone has paid $2k-$8k for a secondhand American V8 motor or crate motor and at least $5k again to have it fitted plus more fees and complications approved for road use by the authorities. Again. Even major engine troubles are relatively inexpensive to rectify compared to everything else on a neglected Silver Shadow. RT. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 641 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Richard, You make some very true and worthwhile points. The lesson for all here is to look beyond first impressions and to really know what you are buying compared what else is out there. Omar | ||
| Patrick Ryan Prolific User Username: patrick_r Post Number: 191 Registered: 4-2016 |
Here Here Omar. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 302 Registered: 10-2008 |
Why are their problems with 6cyl and V12 Jag engines in Aus ? Over here , they are virtually bomb proof if looked after properly with regular oil and coolant changes. The V12 is a masterpiece, indeed superior to the Crewe engine, if a little thirsty ( my son's XJ12 was superb but 8 mpg !) In the UK Rust is the killer of Jags. Mark | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1905 Registered: 6-2009 |
Mark, I'm sorry to report that perhaps yours is the only spot in the world where Jaguar straight 6 and V-12 engines "are virtually bomb proof." Both have very bad reputations here, probably as much because of attendant issues with Lucas, Prince of Darkness. Most owners of Jags through the 1970s, 80s, and early 90s routinely reported their cars spending as much or more time in the shop as on the road. One of my favorite body designs ever was the cigar-shaped XJ, revived beautifully after a dark period in 1995. Nothing improved the reputation of Jaguar's reputation in the United States more than the huge increase in reliability overall after Ford's involvement in both engineering and getting rid of all Lucas electrics. Brian, who loved his 1999 Jag XJ8 | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 642 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Brian and Mark, well captured about the reliability issue. The story is the same in the Middle East with a small variation. The cars spent much more time on the road than anywhere else - but sadly on the side of the road - stationary. I remember the 80s well with many a beautiful Jaguar abandoned on the side of the road mostly due to overheating problems. It was almost a 100% failure rate with every owner selling their car due to maintenance related issues rather than desire to change cars. I bought my Daimler Doublesix without an engine and converted it to a Chevy V8. All refinement went out the window but the car was reliable and strong. We are still scared to own the V12s as these were particularly delicate when they were new - let alone now when they are decades old. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1237 Registered: 5-2012 |
From what Brian and Omar have written I guess it depends on the year. My experience of the 6 cyl Jaguar engine concurs with Mark's: it was bombproof. A long time ago I owned a 1959 XK150, which had the famed 3.4 litre XK engine. It was a beautifully reliable car. Could it be that as the XK engine was developed it became less reliable because of all the electronics later incorporated. Maybe Vladimir is right when he states the older cars were much more reliable. I don't know when the XK series of engines was discontinued, but maybe we are talking about different things here. From my experience I would agree the later V8s were less reliable. A few years ago I had an XK8. This caused me quite a lot of grief, mainly due to the use of plastics on the engine and also to the annoying habit of Jaguar, at that time, of incorporating relatively cheap sensors into very expensive engine components. e.g. the TPS into the throttle body. If the TPS goes awry you have to buy a new throttle body - about a grand. Fortunately in my case, when the car occasionally dumped me into fail safe mode, the fault turned out to be a faulty connector. The car was definitely less reliable than the XK150. I have never owned an XJS or XJ12 so cannot comment on the reliability of the V12. Geoff | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 303 Registered: 10-2008 |
My experience with Jag engines is Carburettor versions ,I have not had an injection or electronically controlled version. The main XJ 6 failures were noisy timing chains ( the lower one is a PITA to change), blown head gaskets on some 4.2litre. As long as no one tries to strip a V12 they are generally strong PROVIDED the cooling system, viscous coupling and electric fan are absolutely A1. In the UK we do not know what hot weather is however, and I can appreciate that in warmer climes the cooling system would be totally inadequate, with huge consequences. Once a V12 is stripped, they are notorious for being troublesome; they do not seem to rebuild well. Mark | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3272 Registered: 4-2003 |
On the Jaguar forum now it seems, but to be sure the journalists always put Silver Shadows as the laggards of the famous V12 rivals. My schoolmates, and our neighbour who had two, rubbed it in back then. Time has shown that up as the Rolls-Royce V8 has excelled all expectations in the meantime. Jaguars and their Daimler (well, not really Daimler-Benz) twins have been very succeful here in Australia. The early V12s were mostly dogged by that undersized Borg-Warner transmission, later heroed by the THM400/3L80 from General Motors. That fixed a bunch of issues. Overheating was a myth propagated by poor maintenance just as with the Triumph Stag at the time. Yes, the 4.2 XK motor was almost trouble-free here too. The only issue was that, again with neglected coolin system maintenance, the tappet guides (buckets) moved in the cylinder heads, making a noise as they interfered with the camshafts and a little later terminally damaging the camshafts. I shall not enter into the final fix on that. The entry-level 2.8 XJ6 had a habit of of dropping its camshaft chain just as Porsce 911s before 1984 always did at about 50,000km. That took the wheelcase and other expensive hardware like engine valves with it. Around 1980 a new Silver Shadow II cost around $120,000 in 1980 money (well over a million in today’s). A pristine 1974 Silver Shadow fetched probably $40,000. A Series II XJ6 or XJ12 in the range of $5,000-$10,000 max. We bought a motordead Series I in nice condition for $2200 and bunged a Chev 350 into it. It worked, but hopping back into the T-Series showed the limitations of backyard re-engineering. RT. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1238 Registered: 5-2012 |
Talking about dropping camshaft chains on Jaguar engines, the 2000 - 2004 XJ8 and XK8 were fitted with plastic timing chain tensioners. They would become brittle and after 50 - 80k they would often fail, causing the timing chain to jump a couple of cogs allowing the exhaust valves to say hello to the pistons - instant engine destruction and a 10k bill. My pet hate is plastic components on car engines. Geoff | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1906 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, Check your dates, as I believe this started with the 1997 model year. My 1999 was one of the nikasil liner and plastic timing chain tensioner and water pump impeller cars. Had all the plastic changed out early in my ownership. I thought the original "all plastic or nearly so" ones were gone with the 2002 model year. I do know that this was a particularly messy bit for Jag to clean up (and they denied it even existed for a long time). I think they're up to the 4th, and final, generation of this part design at the moment. At one time I actually knew which VIN was the first that had the 2nd generation tensioners, but that data is long gone now. Brian, who's now forgotten as much about the AJ-V8 as I once knew | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1003 Registered: 9-2004 |
2.4 3.4 3.6 3.8 all bomb proof if serviced correctly. 2.8 and 4.2 had design issues as did the 5.3 V12. "Brian, who loved his 1999 Jag XJ8" Brian 1997- 2001 was a engine disaster for the XK8. Hope your engine has been changed, ie the Nikasil is another problem as well as the plastic chain guides etc on that.  1974 | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 494 Registered: 2-2013 |
I have a 420G Jaguar I am going to swap the Jaguar 4.2 Engine and slush box automatic with a perhaps a Cadillac 500 V8 of about 600 horsepower with a Tremec 6 speed transmission. I thought long and hard about doing this type of modification with the Camargue with an automatic but I could not stand the embarrassment of lifting the bonnet and showing anybody a US engine in place of the Rolls Royce engine. To me its just horrific vandalism. XJS Jaguar V12s are horrid to work on, have a very crude timing chain tensioner that gets cooked, are a nice mongrel to replace and have a crankshaft pulley problem that has snapped the pully off the shaft with all the comedy that can produce. An XJS V12 with an auto trans is a horrid slug acceleration wise but if you google the Driven Man you can see that these cars with a manual transmission can really be turned into a very potent rocket. One look under the bonnet/hood of an XJS is quite enough to turn many mechanics into truck drivers. There is little room for big hands and if you drop anything in the engine bay you will have a lovely time trying to find out where it is let alone retrieving it. Also, sitting right on top of the engine in a nice hot spot is a berrylium electrical unit that just loves to go the way of the dodo in traffic. I had one that did this to me in a Sydney shopping centre. I have never driven a car that can grip the road around corners like an XJS. I could not get the tyres to squeal. It made my 7 Series BMW feel like a Woolworths shopping trolley. I have seen some history invoices of XJS and the amount of money spent in the garage was indeed hilarious. There is a free book on the internet by Kirby which has contributions of Phd engineers down on how to keep these incredibly complex cars going. The HE engine is almost impossible to performance modify. The earlier engines can be made to produce 700 hp and there are some cars in the US running twin turbos with nitros which would be good for the kiddies. Another cute point is the hydrogen emitting batteries in the back. The right battery must be vented to the outside of the boot/trunk. In Kirbys book there is a tale of one going over a bump and the rear window falling in due to the battery gasses doing fine work rusting the back of the car. The oil guage on these cars can send you off to the shrinks if you keep an eye on it and the door locks have a habit of jamming the door locked. XJS is an undervalued grand tourer but if cant fix it yourself you should first get a job in a bank and rob it to finance the repairs that are definitely coming your way. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 650 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Vlad, I have just bought another 59 Caddy and it will need lots of work. I like your idea of the big 500 V8 Caddy engine and transmission for this particular car. To make the transplant more cost effective I can buy a whole car and just whip the engine and gearbox out of it. Would the car in question be an Escalade? There are many of those here in Dubai but they have 4WD transmissions and I would not want my 59 Caddy to have a 4WD system. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 495 Registered: 2-2013 |
No Omar I would buy a 600 HP 500 ci V8 from Cad Company in New Mexico. These people make performance Cadillac engines, The tremec 6 speed is available here in Australia and the adapter plate would be an Australian custom. Cad company can supply the flywheel. This is a simplistic reliable carby engine And I imagine the Escalade would be a computerised nightmare full of sensors that croak without warning. I also have my eye on a set of true knock off wheels Halibrand same as 427 AC Cobra. I am going to spend an obscene amount on this car which I presently have in many many pieces. Australia is the cheapest place in the world to buy the Mark X/420G Jaguar - still plenty of them here.Fantastic under appreciated Jaguar and one you must have in your collection. | ||
| Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert Prolific User Username: jphilbert Post Number: 143 Registered: 9-2013 |
The Saginaw steering pump and the Harrison A6 are also GM stuff found on SY/SZs. At the end of the day, my 1985 Corniche is a british engine, british coachwork teamed-up with a US gearbox, US power steering, US air-conditioning, french suspension and german fuel injection. Forgot to mention that the propshaft rubber couplings and bushings are BMW 7-Series. And the rubber steering column donut is from a TR4. The automotive supply industry was well connected those times! | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1909 Registered: 6-2009 |
JP, And if you think the automotive supply industry was well connected way back when, your jaw will drop if you look at the web that exists today! Brian | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 651 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Vlad, I dont mind electronics - in fact i prefer a modern set up than old fashioned carbs. I will look into the Escalade thing a bit more closely. Thanks for your response though. Omar | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1911 Registered: 6-2009 |
Omar wrote: "in fact I prefer a modern set up than old fashioned carbs." You and me both!! I find it far, far easier to maintain my post-OBD, and particularly post-OBD-II cars than the RRs in almost every respect. I have found, truly, that with the exception of cars from Crewe that the electronics are one of the most robust parts of most cars. I don't even think I'm cursing myself by saying that my 1989 Cadillac Sedan de Ville, with all electronic dash (which I don't particularly love), runs and behaves much better overall than most of the Rolls-Royces and Bentleys of that same era with which I have acquaintance. I fully expect the sheet metal will be a pile of iron oxide and the various electronic components will still function if plugged in to a living version of the same or similar model. Brian, who's had quite enough experience with the "What's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget!" aspects of older cars | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 653 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Brian perfectly summed up. Omar | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 501 Registered: 2-2013 |
Well Brian and Omar, I would truly like to have your faith in computerised fuel injection on RR/B but my experience with it on all cars including Jaguar, BMW and Mercedes is that when the nice little electrical sensors go the way of the dodo they do it without warning and the Camargue and the Cadillac would have the life expectancy only predicable in microseconds until the first lot of drunk heavily armed cowboys came past the car at the side of the road. There are in my situation lots of mobile phone black holes and a tow bill possibly exceeding $2,000 so I shall certainly be sticking to carburettors and carrying all the simplistic easy to diagnose electrical items with me! | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1912 Registered: 6-2009 |
Vladimir, Just for clarity from my end, "Who said anything about RR/Bentley?" I have been endlessly amazed at just how fragile, for lack of a better term, the electronics and electromechanical components are on cars issued from Crewe (at least prior to the Seraph/Arnage era, and from what I've seen online there remain a number of electronic gremlins still). I have never understood why RR/Bentley could never, ever seem to get these things virtually bulletproof like virtually every other major maker has. I'm driving a 1996 Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon that was first generation OBD-II and early fuel injection and am about to turn over 200K trouble free miles (with those components, anyway, no car is completely trouble free). On my '99 Jag the only unreliable electronic/electrical part was the ignition coils, which could and did go out unpredictably. However, those were easily changed out at roadside if you kept your code reader (or OBD-II dongle and smartphone with OBD app) handy. I did have one $600 towing bill on the Buick that happened, literally, the first trip out from a transmission rebuild when the brand new planetary gear (I think, it's been a while) self-destructed. The tow was covered by insurance and the shop redid the work for no charge. I'd used them before, and have again since, including for LRK37110. They said at the time that this had never occurred before in their decades in business and hoped it never would again. My FTP when the distributor went out on SRH33576 was far more traumatic and far more difficult to diagnose afterward than anything that's any happened on my electronics laden cars. Brian | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1013 Registered: 9-2004 |
"I have never understood why RR/Bentley could never, ever seem to get these things virtually bulletproof like virtually every other major maker has." In there day they were as reliable as any other manufacturer. German and jap included. They all have electronic issues even to-day but not as bad. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1914 Registered: 6-2009 |
Patrick, We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. This is completely contrary to all personal and anecdotal experience I have. Brian |
