| Author | Message | |||
     Brian Vogel New User Username: guyslp Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2009 |
Hello All, After a great deal of research, measuring, and locating of suppliers I have finally managed to assemble a great many of the EPDM O-Rings and Quad-Rings to put together several of the commonly needed seal kits for RR363 systems. All are 70A Shore Durometer hardness. I want to note that I am speaking strictly of the seals. What I've got the equivalents for are: RH2436 - Height Control Valve Seal Kit $10 US [FULL KIT, which is only seals, 2 are quad/X-rings] RH2438 - Brake Pump Seals $8 US [All seals, beveled metal ring omitted] RH10067 - Accumulator Valve Seals $8 US [All seals - various spacing washers, and other reusable original hardware not included. A 1.25" spring clip/circlip is needed and can be purchased at virtually any well-stocked hardware store. The same is true of the wave spring washer, should you wish to replace it.] plus shipping by the method of your choice. Please e-mail me at guyslp@gmail.com or PM me if interested. Brian | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1103 Registered: 6-2009 |
I've recently had several inquiries regarding seal kits and had sold out of a number of those I'd put together in 2010. In response I decided to go out and get all the "missing bits" to put the kits I had before together plus add some seals that I had not yet documented at that time. Attached is the current pricing (in USD) document and what's available. If you're interested you know how to reach me. Brian
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| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3118 Registered: 4-2003 |
All very well, Brian, but if the UE35101 in the valve body kit is supplied as a BS113 as once earlier implied it will leak every time not long after overhaul. Ask any specialist repairer for confirmation and he will spit the dummy at his costs and hassle suffered. UE35101 has a unique cross-section. Some fool at Crewe kitted out BS113 EPDM posing as UE35101 o-rings in a hundred or so genuine RH10067 and RH2435 kits a long time ago, and most substitute kits have blindly copied the error ever since. UE35101 is not a BS113 size, nor is it the AS equivalent. Be warned. Substitute kits have dangers whereas genuine and some (not all) aftermarket kits have mostly been sorted out by now but not without great expense to the sellers of the defective kits over the years. Sellers are liable for the rework costs. There are other o-rings quoted incorrectly too. These things are so cheap to buy genuine or reputable aftermarket and the effort to fit them doesn't warrant a $5 saving by buying a substitute kit at the risk of fitting the wrong part. This is especially true for safety-related components. You also once mentioned RH2435 superseding RH10067. RH2435 is the very basic kit and is not the same as RH10067. RH10067 is a full repair kit whilst RH2435 is the seal kit only. RH10067 is far more expensive than RH2435 and they should not be confused. RT. | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1104 Registered: 6-2009 |
Richard, I have made the correction with regard to RH10067. I thought I'd done so before, but apparently not. I've also removed reference to RH2435 and RH2619. I believe I thought that RH10068, Accumulator Sphere Overhaul Kit, had been replaced by RH2619, Accumulator Kit. Crewe Original makes the naming of the various kits as opaque as possible as far as having any idea of what's in each and I've never seen a reference that documents kit contents other than what I've put out there. As for the rest, each can make their own decision. I've been running around with an AS568A-113 O-ring in my accumulator control valve as the sealing plug seal for over a year now and quite a few miles, no leaking. Quite a few others are using the same, without problem. I wish I could find the post or e-mail, but you are the one who once said to me that things are engineered around standard seal sizes. It would make absolutely no sense for a simple O-ring in the spot that one's in to be anything other than some standard size. I have yet to see a single piece of hard documentation stating that Crewe had a single O-ring custom engineered and what its non-standard size is. I doubt even the Temple of Boutique Engineering would go that route. People know exactly what they're buying if they purchase what I'm offering because I've laid out, explicitly, what they're getting. No one's arm is being twisted and I consider that I'm doing a service for those of us who are trying to keep these cars maintained on a shoestring budget (and there are lots of us out there). Since this file is subject to ongoing revision as various kit contents can be examined, I'll simply link to it here rather than posting an attachment: Brian Vogel's RR363 SY Hydraulic Kits - Pricing Brian | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3119 Registered: 4-2003 |
Really annoyed that even after repeated warnings defective repair kit are still on offer. This message is put on this Forum purely as it has been ignored many times that there is no BS113 (AS568-113 or whatever you wish to call it) suited to the accumulator valve kit. That part is simply wrong and fails. Best recall all kits until the correct part is provided for UE35101. Shoestring or bootlace, genuine kits are as cheap as chips anyhow. RT. | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1106 Registered: 6-2009 |
Then, Richard, what is that O-ring? In what way is it different? I've checked a number of ACV kits (Crewe Original ones, I'll add) and the O-rings supplied have direct measured dimensions that match the AS568A specification. Others have been kind enough to send me the Crewe Original ACV kits they've purchased prior to installing them to permit me to repeatedly verify those measurements. I am running three of my own ACVs on those very AS568A O-rings and a number of others are as well. They're not leaking. Your warnings mean nothing when the stuff works, works correctly, comes from direct measurement, and you can't or won't put up anything that supports your claim. Your statements are unsubstantiated. Mine are now field tested, over time, by myself and a number of others who've installed ACV kits using the AS568A O-rings I've documented. Your endless claims about the cheapness of the Crewe Original kits isn't borne out, either. Brian, who's done now, because I've actually put in the time and research, can articulate my findings clearly, and have field tested them | |||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.92 |
Brian mate, Be very careful, I don't know about the USA consumer laws. Here in the UK we have product liability laws. This means as the seller you are liable. Admissions that some of the parts may be wrong and that you are aware that others in the trade have had problems only make it worse should someone who buys a kit then has the job go wrong because the o ring was wrong. A disclaimer is not lawful on goods or services being sold. The only way round is to give them away and even then it's risky. I used to sell reconditioned engines and I had one blow up 200 miles away fortunately the engine came from Renault direct and they picked up the bill which was more than the engine. After that I got insurance which put £50 on each engine. If it goes wrong trading standards will get involved and they can be nasty. The insurance company will fight on your behalf. Although you are being helpful and not making much of a profit if any remember that there are people who will take advantage. Don't assume that only the less wealthy will be your only customers. I have met many sods and the worse ones are the rich ones who have a lawyer on speed dial. A customer trip up in my garage and I got a claim for lost wages, etc etc. My liability insurance sorted it out and the customer with drew their claim. If I had no insurance the customer would have screwed me. the customer fell over their own feet as we all do from time to time. stuff on this site is not goods and services and therefore no liability. EBay is not exempt from product liability. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 172 Registered: 10-2008 |
Brian, I echo Bob's advice. Some years ago I had a batch of oversize Austin 7 kingpins made (I had to make 10 as a minimum order, and I only wanted a set for my own cars ! I was strongly advised by a Lawyer friend not to sell or give the spares away because of the risk .The same advice was given regarding a steering arm safety brace that I designed and fabricated for my competition car originally and then fitted a version to my saloon, to overcome a notorious failure issue. With regard to advice, care needs to be taken in wording, as liability could arise. Mark | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3120 Registered: 4-2003 |
Brian, I have given you far too many hints on this one. I could but am not prepared to disclose the solution when it comes to changing a component's specification in safety-related matters unless Crewe owns up to the error and discloses the correction first. In this country, the UK and in Europe at least it doesn't matter one bit if you are selling for profit or not, if something goes wrong you are liable for the consequences of bad advice or goods whether paid for or not. It is the same as when any any person who injures anothe even going about leisure activities is liable for the consequences. I hope that you are well insured. A little research could be done to make the kits fit for service, but that means more than using google to see what's out there or buying a kit to copy. RT | |||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 438 Registered: 4-2009 |
I am trying to establish whether this matter is being blown out of proportions or not. People buy used cars that have all sorts of "previous owner interventions" that are way more severe than a substitute O ring (which happens to be identical to one which Rolls-Royce already sold in the past for the same application). To live a life that is haunted by fear of lawyers makes me grateful to live where I do. We don't get lawyerphobia where I live. And for that I am grateful. I tried to follow the message to establish which particular o ring we are discussing. Can I assume it is one of the o rings in the Accumulator control valve? if so, can we have a closer look at this o ring to see what the implications are of it failing? to understand how it could fail and what the consequence of the failure actually is? How do people who live in lawyerland cope with deviating from spec when they use radial tyres when the spec called for crossplies? How do they know when to turn a blind eye and when to hammer an enthusiast? I would never ever use brake pads that have asbestos in them - but some of my cars were specified with these when new - so how can we accept deviation from specs when it suits us and on the other hand put the lawyer argument when it doesn't? My cars had oil seals on wheel bearing stub shafts that were made with a cloth/cotton sealing surface. The replacement seals that you can buy today are rubber - you can no longer buy the cloth seals. Does that expose the car owner to lawyer bullying? I don't want to open up a hornet's nest, but I think some calm thinking and sensible application of engineering knowledge is in order. Let us all look forward to a happy Christmas and a happy end to 2014. Peace to all. Omar | |||
| Jeff Young Prolific User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 207 Registered: 10-2010 |
I find myself in agreement with Omar. While I suspect Ireland is a bit more "lawyered-up" than Dubai, it's likely not by a huge margin, and probably roughly similar to the States. Are the UK and Aus really that much more DIY-unfriendly? Cheers, Jeff. | |||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 174 Registered: 10-2008 |
Omar, Jeff, I agree entirely with what you are saying, sadly in the UK there are so many people out to make an easy " buck". We are now plagued with random phone calls from law firms enquiring if you have had an accident recently and can they sue someone on your behalf ! It is a sad state of affairs. Mark | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1484 Registered: 4-2003 |
"Omar, Jeff, I agree entirely with what you are saying, sadly in the UK there are so many people out to make an easy " buck". We are now plagued with random phone calls from law firms enquiring if you have had an accident recently and can they sue someone on your behalf ! It is a sad state of affairs. Mark" Too many lawyers with not enough work to keep the chargeable time clock ticking - quod erat demonstrandum unfortunately. | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1108 Registered: 6-2009 |
Here in the United States, even though it's been legal to do so now for decades, many people still look askance at law firms that advertise, particularly on television across markets and/or soliciting injury cases. I can only imagine the reception any attorney, or his or her firm, would receive were they to try cold calling to solicit business here in the US!! [I'd love to be able to listen in on the reactions from the call-ees.] I will never understand how those in businesses like law, medicine, or most endeavors, for that matter, don't recognize that there is a natural and inescapable ebb and flow of work. There will be slow periods and times where you're swamped. Nothing you do will ever create either a steady workload of perfectly consistent and manageable size or an endless stampede condition. There are lots of things people try that drive potential clients away. Cold calling is at the top of the things that drive me away. Brian | |||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 175 Registered: 10-2008 |
I think the callers must have a love of abuse and "Barrack Room Language", rather like double glazing cold call salesmen who seem unable to read a notice saying "NO Cold calling ". Mark | |||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.91 |
I once asked a company how much per square metre it would cost to re tarmac my drive. The company wouldn't quote me without seeing the job. The guy turns up and quotes £20,000 for block paving. So I said I want tarmac. The guy then yells me my neighbours have block paving, so I said other neighbors have just mud. So he quoted £10,000 for tarmac. I said do it for £500. He said why did you call us if you are not willing to pay. Which is why I asked how much a square metre. He got the right hump and called me a time waster. A local firm did the job for £250 and it has lasted over 20 years. I knew nothing about driveways or prices. I do now. Back to liability. A lot of customer complaints are unjustified. Unfortunately if you just tell them to get stuffed they then take it further and issue court proceedings. Although their case is a non flyer it can cost a lot of money to fight, so with out insurance to fight ones corner it is best to pay them off. The valve body plug o ring. suppose that the plug that the ring was tested on is slightly bigger than the one the customer has. Both plugs are within manufacturers tolerance. unfortunately the customers valve body starts to leak and the owners wife who knows nothing about cars is driving and the dot goes all over the paint work. If the owner wants a free respray then they have a reasonable case to be tested by a judge. It is stuff like the above that make me cautious. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1485 Registered: 4-2003 |
"The valve body plug o ring. Suppose that the plug that the ring was tested on is slightly bigger than the one the customer has. Both plugs are within manufacturers tolerance. Unfortunately the customers valve body starts to leak and the owners wife who knows nothing about cars is driving and the dot goes all over the paint work. If the owner wants a free respray then they have a reasonable case to be tested by a judge." Bob, rather than being concerned about manufacturer's tolerances, has anyone considered the fact that the the R-R system also incorporated proprietary Citroen components? Citroen is domiciled in a country that uses the metric system and metric specification items from local suppliers most probably would have been used in these components. Sacre Bleu - a French manufacturer using Imperial components! Invraisemblable???? Food for thought for anyone trying to list alternative replacements....................... | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1110 Registered: 6-2009 |
David, I suggest you look at the history of seal specifications and the dates certain ones were in effect and how English measurement size standards have been subsumed into even current ISO 3601 standard. As I mentioned earlier, and have had confirmed by multiple engineers, things that needed seals were engineered around "the standard sizes" at the time the items were engineered. It was quite rare to do otherwise, particularly when it came to automobiles. It's almost certain that manufacturers everywhere in the world were engineering around the oldest existing specification in the middle of the 20th century. I leave it as an exercise to the readership to have fun looking up which specifications were, for all practical intents and purposes, worldwide standards at various dates. Brian | |||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1323 Registered: 6-2006 |
Okay, here's my take. The oe seal kit costs maybe £2 a year. Is that worth taking a risk on? What if something does happen? Forget the money, what about injuring somebody? Who was it that fitted accumulators and posted photos of the seal that failed? What would you do if that seal was supplied to you? I can see no advantage but lots of disadvantages in buying from somebody , even if they are doing it with the best intentions, who is not qualified or experienced in the field, offers no insurance, and is pretty inexperienced when it comes to the pitfalls of RR&B engineering. Repairing these cars can be enough trouble without adding any extra variables. | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1486 Registered: 4-2003 |
Brian, Metric and Imperial size compatibility has always been an issue over the years and, IMHO, will never be fully resolved until long after the US finally follows the rest of the world and metricates. From personal experience, trying to match and install imperial sizes to metric equivalents and vice-versa is rarely 100% successful as the installed fits are invariably different to what the designer intended. In non-critical applications, this may not be a problem but in critical situations such as high-pressure hydraulic systems, the integrity and safety of the system may be compromised. The supply of cheap alternative items made to a price and not a specification is a real problem, after all, who checks an O ring to see if it complies with the relevant specification and has had appropriate testing during manufacture to ensure batch compliance with specified standards? The price of the cheap alternatives suggests testing has been minimal or non-existent. This may not be a concern on your garden sprayer but the same item in your vehicle's hydraulic system is a major concern. I have O ring kits in Imperial and Metric sizes purchased from reputable industrial suppliers for my workshop and not cheap kits from automotive after-market shops for this reason. As far as I am concrned, the additional cost involved is negligible compared to the inconvenience and time required to replace a seal that fails prematurely in service. With due respect, are your measurements sufficiently standardised and your equipment sufficiently accurate to give valid results that can be reproduced on alternative testing by an independent test facility? In the case of small items, the results of hand testing compared with specialised high-accuracy measuring equipment means the hand testing results may not be reproducible. This means your selected alternative replacements when installed may not comply with the specified tolerances used by the original manufacturer. I suspect this may be the cause of the known seal kit problem mention by Richard Treacy in a previous post in this thread. Call me pedantic or what you will - in situations where problems arise with alternative non-specification parts, the "streaker's defence" of "it seemed a good idea at the time" is never acceptable. | |||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.78 |
This is a minefield. Metric imperial and non standard sizes. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3121 Registered: 4-2003 |
Then there is hardness. It may not matter much, but there are various o-rings specified at a range of Shore Durometer ratings. For example, the SY height control rate solenoid valve has a few at Shore Durometer 70 and others at Shore Durometer 90. There are even a few 40's in these cars. A brave person will recommend 70 all-round but may be lucky. RT. | |||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.71 |
The UK is diy friendly except on domestic gas and to a certain extent electrics. On both one must have certificates otherwise clink. With cars just crack on. However the authorities are wary of the parts supply chain because with diyers if a scam artist glues card board to old pads and sells them an amateur is less likely to realise the pads are dodgy. ( it has happened). The problem here is not quality but is it the right part. These o rings all look the same and amateurs and even pros rely on the correct part because o rings are not easy to measure. Given that the only measurements they have is a worn o ring. My local brg services sell o rings and have thousands in stock. Last o ring I got from them for a Water manifold was 5p so he made me buy 20 plus vat. I just want people to always bear in mind the legal stuff before it goes wrong. A mobile welder figured out that insurance wasn't worth the premium because he welds up Old bangers and should he burn a car out, it's cheaper to buy the customer another car. Except that he set fire to a customers house. Fortunately he got the fire out quick. Good car welder even if he did learn the hard way. I would ask an insurance broker what to do, before selling any kits. I would if the answer is favourable supply instruction and photos of how to fit the kits. Note do not reprint any thing from the manual, copyright. This will enhance your kits and you will be justified in charging more. Also a help web site. Never mention in your literature about castor oil only approved RR363. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3123 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well put, Bob, The intellectual property is mostly covered by specification, but that can only earn a small rent. A factor overlooked is the logistics part. If you sell a set of four o-rings to someone in a kit there is a substantial overhead . The seller has to do the following once systems are all set up and the IP is secure: Order 200 of each o-ring: 15 minutes Process the goods and pay for them: 15 minutes So far 30 minutes to source 200 kits. Let’s forget that for now. Assemble each kit, 1 minute each including label and data entry to the stock control system. Take the order from the Customer: 5 minutes if you are lucky. Write the address label for the customer and do the despatch: 5 minutes if you are quick. Let's be optimistic: it takes 12 minutes to stock and to sell a kit if you forget the initial investments to create the product type. At a rock-bottom hourly rate including overheads of just $100/hour (i.e. wage, payroll tax, insurance, health cover, annual leave, phone charges, office space, depreciation etc etc), the kit has a raw cost of $20 before you add the o-rings and packaging for $3. In other words, if you sell a basic kit of 4 o-rings for $23 you make NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. At a more realistic hourly cost rate for a small firm, the cost would double. So, when you buy an o-ring kit for $20, please understand that the seller is offering it purely as a service. Off the shelf at your whim, correct parts, correct part number, logged, liabilities covered. And he is losing a packet in the process. I can assure everyone that spares suppliers would love to drop all o-rings from their stock. However, were to ring a Crewe parts outlet and ask for a brake pump kit only to be told that he can't be bothered to stock them as he makes a loss on every lit, what would you think ? Please do support your spares supplier so that they can provide all your spares at a single point. It may be fun to drive across town and back, 20km at $1/km and $100-$500+/hour for your time depending on your vocation but it is detrimental to the overall spares availability for our excellent motor cars and of no benefit to anyone especially the Customer. RT. | |||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Experienced User Username: soviet Post Number: 41 Registered: 2-2013 |
In the outback on huge earthmoving machines mechanics use any oring that looks like it will do the job. We don't have the time to muck around - the machine has to go back on site asap. When rebuilding the Camargue's brake system I look at the old oring match it to the new oring and fit it if it looks like its going to do the job. So if I have been using generic orings for years and so far I haven't killed anybody I am defineately going to use them in the Camargue. I had a 7 Series BMW and there was a chamber that leaked - can't remember whether it was for the brakes or the power steering but BMW parts quoted $800. I fixed it with an 80 cent oring from Repco. Never leaked. Blew the diff up. The spider gears had welded to the shaft. I took it to a Chinese Engineer who was trained in the Chinese Military. He said BMW had made a major blunder by running two metals of the same type together. He took me to another engineer who ground out the spider gears (they had been damaged inside where they run on the shaft. Then the Chinese Engineer fabricated a new shaft with an oil gallery that the original did not have plus he fabricated bronze bushes for the spider gears. Price all up $275. BMW wanted thousands for a new diff. By the way the Chinese gentlemen said for a real good price I can make you a Kashnikov with variable bullet speed delivery.(He He so much for gun control/licences etc) Personally it was tempting. I just settled for the diff parts and it worked. Call me a risk taker but I could never have afforded the Camargue new and I can't imagine what it would cost if I dropped it into a dealership and said fix it. Egad | |||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.77 |
Vladimir. I agree about o rings etc etc. But in plant and other similar stuff, if a machine lasts 3 months without going wrong then one's a engineering hero. Whereas the average car bits punter expects much longer, years longer. A bit like racing. What works well for 2 hours on a track may not work in the daily grind to the shops and Work. Selling a product makes the vendor an expert in the eyes of the law. Even if the o ring didn't cause the problem some will still try it on. Without insurance one is a sitting duck. I never get o ring problems I just tell the guy in the brg shop, what fluid and he measures the old one with his special machine, and disappears then appears with the ring in a snappy bag. Some times he has the application in a book. I then fit it and I never get leaks. All very straight forward. O rings are usually static seals. Plus I have a selection box of o rings. Material unknown. You can get a kit, where the o ring is a long length which is cut and super glued. It sounds like a leak waiting to happen but they do sell so some must work. (Message approved by david_gore) |
RR363 Seal Kits Price List