| Author | Message | ||
     David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 834 Registered: 4-2003 |
A Phantom II Town Car by Brewster sold for $US2.31M at the recent Monterey auction. Details of the car follow:  Chassis No: 218AMS Engine No: U45J The story of this epic car began in 1933, where the US economy was in the depths of the worst depression in history. Luxury items and automobiles were lacking for a market except for the very few who had somehow managed to preserve their fortunes. One of these lucky few was C. Matthew Dick, an heir to a major business machine company that attributed its continued success in part to a major increase in US government spending and activity that required additional A.B. Dick equipment. He was scheduled to be married in the coming months to a beautiful young woman who was expected to take her place in the highest echelons of society. In doing so, she was expected to be travelling between events in the predictable formal town car. The problem was that the traditional town car was far too stodgy to fit the form and personality presented by this beautiful young woman. The solution would be to create a town car unlike any seen before. To fulfil this requirement, the prospective groom contacted Rolls Royce and their New York coachbuilding firm Brewster & Co. to provide a totally unique town car on the legendary Phantom II chassis as a wedding present for his bride-to-be. After a variety of meetings with the coach builder and its top designers and artists, the work commenced on this epic town car and their combined vision was eventually achieved when this Brewster bodied Special Town Car, 218AMS, was delivered to its new owner in 1934. This Phantom II Rolls Royce combines the best styling elements of the era, with its long hood, low razor edge roof design, dramatic V-windshield, sculpted windows, German silver hardware, and complementing canework. The same degree of attention was paid to the custom fitted interior with its gold plated hardware, vanity cases, indirect lighting, and lambs’ wool carpets. All of these elements were perfectly combined to create an exquisite town car that was tasteful, elegant and sporty, and would soon directly inspire the rebody of two earlier Phantom II chassis with similar yet unique coachwork for other beautiful women. The original cost for designing and building this Brewster bodied masterpiece was an astounding $31,000, making it the most expensive car in the world built that year and over 50% more than the “Twenty Grand” Duesenberg created that same year. In comparison, this remarkable amount could have purchased at that time an entire fleet of ordinary new automobiles or a full block of fine homes. Adding to the extraordinary nature of this Special Town Car is the fact that it has had only three owners from new and is a greatly original car. Mrs. Dick enjoyed the car for many years and eventually kept it at her estate in Newport, RI. The second owner was Gerald Rolph who maintained and preserved the car for over 40 years, much of this time storing the car on his Isle of Man estate off the coast of England. The current Colorado owner purchased the car over a decade ago. This Special Town Car has been shown at exclusive concours events throughout the world where it has won numerous Best of Show and Elegance awards, and has been a part of special displays at the foremost museums – all accomplished with a completely original interior and trim in mint condition and a body that has never been off the chassis. As a result, 218AMS has received its coveted FIVA certification, which is a tribute to its pristine originality. This Special Town Car is considered by most historians to be one of the greatest Rolls Royces ever built, and quite possible the most significant post WWI Rolls Royce in existence. Its one-off design was the direct inspiration for the Special Town Car bodies completed by Brewster for the actress Constance Bennett in 1935 and Dutch Darrin for the Countess de Frasso in 1938. These two examples have since become the centrepieces of the Nethercutt and Robert M. Lee collections – two of the most significant collections of automobiles ever assembled. The cost for acquisition of each several decades ago was substantial and reported to be in the multi-million dollar range. Of the three Special Town Cars completed, 218AMS was the first example built and the only one to have been finished with its original body on the original chassis. | ||
| Martin Cutler Frequent User Username: martin_cutler Post Number: 85 Registered: 7-2007 |
Very cool! Any more photo's around? Under the bonnet would be great. Cheers Marty | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 836 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Martin, This was the only photo available on the internet - I suspect you would have to buy the auction catalogue to get more. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 838 Registered: 4-2003 |
Another Rolls-Royce collectible coming onto the market: http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=EUR&screen=lotdetailsNoFlash&iSaleItemNo=4082470&iSaleNo=16252&iSaleSectionNo=2 This merry-go-round was previously mentioned in the following thread: http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/30/4600.html A unique item for the grandchildren?? | ||
| StevenBrown New User Username: stevenbrown Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2008 |
These collector auctions are in my opinion the worse place to buy a car. I took a mid 80's Mercedes 560SEC, with near perfect interior and a well above average respray. This car had well over 300,000 kilometers on the odometer. Auction around 1997/8 time frame. The car fetched over $20,000 and the buyer had remorse after figuring out he overpaid by a large sum. Was in the car business at that time and would have let that car go for $7,000. The real warning if you do buy at these venues. If a nice example fails to find bidders, the auctions normally have "friends" start doing so. I.E: raising false bids at crucial times to goose the bidding. This "chandelier bidding," by high end auction houses goes on all the time. Really the worse place to buy even a very significant and rare well restored example. Selling cars is what they are about and when they "sell" million dollar vehicles, creates excitement (sell tickets to view event as well) and gets people wanting to participate. Consign and buy vehicles. They really are all show and like all entertainment not reality. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 846 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thanks to a intermittent ISP connection problem, a post from Bob UK was accidentally deleted, I have been able to retrieve it from a back-up however the forum is not accepting my reposting at the present time. My apology to Bob and his post will be available as soon as the problem is resolved. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 847 Registered: 4-2003 |
Still cannot post - the server keeps timing me out for some reason  . | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 849 Registered: 4-2003 |
I give up . Sorry Bob, I have done my best to try and fix my mistake. Kind regards David | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 850 Registered: 4-2003 |
Success at last!!! Posted on Monday, 27 October, 2008 - 06:43 am by Bob UK: In the UK we call it bouncing off the wall. What the auctioneer does is as you are bidding he accepts bids from the crowd quickly when there is nobody bidding. Naturally you are watching the auctioneer not the crowd. Best way is to find out how much a car is worth before you bid. I always suggest to people looking for car is to pay the extra and go to a honest trader with a showroom and a comeback. Sometimes you pay 10% extra for the car but you have a comeback. Cars such as the 560 Merc with 300,000 clicks would not be found in a good dealers stock simple because he will have no confidence in such a car ( they all go wrong eventually ). A dealer local to me only stocks cars at less than 50k miles every car is good and has no problem selling cars at a good price. Any rubbish that comes his way goes down the auction. Many years ago I worked for a dealer who had 3 cars sites --nice cars, not so nice, and the horrible. Some car which were worse than horrid went to the Auctions and I used to see them through and people would bid on cars for more than we were selling nice ones for. I remeber a Hillman Avenger that had rusted rear trailing arms-- common. It was not worth enough to fix so we auctioned it someone gave £400 for it when If they had come to me I had one with out the rust for £350. We expected to get £100 which is what we allowed for it in part ex. The following auction we saw it dumped at the side of the road with the back axle hanging out. The reason we sold the rubbish at auction is because we have no legal come back whats so ever. We would always red ticket them with a no guanrantee at all. I remember one guy wanted to buy a MGB but I had just inspected it andf found filler in both sills and lots of rust in the boot so I told him it had gone to Auction. He brought the car at the auction and then found out what a shed it was and took us to court. I explained to him why it went to Auction before he brought it but he still brought it. He said in court that we auctioned it to make more money in some sort of fraudulent activity that he could not work out because we was so devious. He failed because he didn't buy the car from us he had no contract with us. After court he said we had obviously bribed the judge. Remember at auction if every thing on the ticket is correct and you buy you have no comeback. not even if the day after the engine blows up. Our local auction gives 1 hour after sales closed to check everything is correct after that you are on your own. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| StevenBrown New User Username: stevenbrown Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2008 |
Bobs posting was worth the wait. American talk show television host Jay Leno, has turned his car collection and website into a show, that is second to Top Gear for auto related video's. Leno has a few Bentley's and last week or so he profiled his 1989 Turbo R! This segment made me want one even more: http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=775036 You can find them all day long from private sellers and dealers, for reasonable money and most times less then most auctions. After seeing and watching again his other Bentley segments, has me thinking. I need at least one WO Bentley in my lifetime. Even the 8 litre can be found within classifieds and offered by private sellers, even dealers. Maybe if I wanted a specific car, Goddards 1924 twin turbo, Id consider that worth the 10% buyers premium! Something like a more common Turbo R, much better reasonable deals via classifieds. Along with a Turbo R, I've always wanted a Corniche. Seriously considering skipping buying both these models over the next two years. For around the same money-- Instead one; 1920's 3 to 4 1/2 liter might be in order! I'll visit Stanley Mann or consider a Petersen Engineering reproduction over going the auction route first! | ||
| Brian Crump Experienced User Username: brian_crump Post Number: 25 Registered: 2-2007 |
Not too many of us pay in excess of $2M for a vehicle but I don't see that an auction is a place to be frightened about. One buys what one wants only when it suits and when the price is right, regardless of the source. There are appropriate and inappropriate buys to be made in all sectors of the trade. Regards, Brian Crump | ||
| StevenBrown Experienced User Username: stevenbrown Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2008 |
To locate suitable cars, classifieds ads and RR/B oriented websites like this are the best. With the Internet you can find nearly anything. Buying from private owners is best because your dealing face-to-face; allows you to assess both the car's condition and the sellers relationship with the car. Both are key to getting a vehicle you're happy with. I've read ads, two owner car claims never been smoked in. Go and look finding cigarette burns on carpets, well used ashtray's, etcetera. Even more fun check engine warning lights are on! I also like to ask basic questions from the seller to get an idea of the car. Most important; mileage, maintenance, and current registration status. Carefully inspect the body, paint and panel fit. If anything looks unusual, ask the seller about it. Test all the accessories to ensure they work. Transmission shifts correctly, hows the steering. Road test the vehicle, check all the fluids before hand! One item I'm leery about is correct miles, has the odometer been tampered with. Lower miles, can save thousands when a lease vehicle has been returned or a dealer can get more for having lower miles. Gut feelings from spending time with the seller can help avoid making big mistake. You can look at more cars and use my number one rule; buy the best example you can afford! Second stage. I like having a inspection done by a shop with the proper diagnostic tools, a compression check is not enough on a modern engine. Most can inspect further and deeper. Was that repaint really the result of a minor scratch repair or from poorly repaired accident damage. You can also see if any manufacture recalls are in effect, etcetera. Low mileage cars in storage can get mice chewing things like wiring harnesses, etcetera. A new wire harness on a Porsche, Mercedes, and other such cars are 60hrs in labor. Imagine how much on a RR/B? An hour or so on a hoist with an experienced mechanic, can save you a lot of grief. Dealer or private seller who does not allow you to have an independent inspection before you buy. Run don't walk away! Last if your considering a car with obvious problems, its important to take the cost of repairs into account before you buy. Anything found should be written down by the shop. You can use this to negotiate a better price. Also consider what normal wear and replacement items need attention; typical items include the seals, suspension, brakes, wheels, tires, steering and drivetrain. Brake pads and rotors are a nice little bill on a RR/B. Its nice knowing for sure if your facing such a bill. Better price can be negotiated, etcetera. Non of the above can be done via auction. Under $50,000 at venues you'll find RR/B's at, 15% buyers fee tacked on top of your winning bid. Above that figure its still a 10% charge. Are you going to pay import duties, sales tax to your government, etcetera. And then have to have some minor repairs. Hence why 9 times out of 10, your paying well above average retail for a vehicle at these auctions. Thats with any car. RR/B's, well they are not just any car when it comes to repairs. They are expensive and you need to take your time in finding the best you can afford! Condensed version of my buying advice opinion. (Message edited by stevenbrown on 11 November 2008) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1514 Registered: 4-2003 |
At good stuff, Steven. Maybe a few highly-biased and questionable insights are worthy. My first gripe is Ebay. What a way to go, as a seller may use all the tricks under the sun at will. The first is a New York car. Advertise it with an Arizona address, so New Yorkers will be more likely to buy it on spec, as the trip to kick the tyres is too long. Declare the obvious and cheap faults, reluctantly agree to a discount, and get rid of that heap with numerous hidden terminal defects. Let’s face it, a horribly leaky oil pressure sensor at $200 looks far worse than a terminal ooze from a cylinder liner seal due to a courageous coolant selection. Besides, you can disguise an oozy liner for a few days with the wipe of a Kleenex. If the steering rack leaks, well it would have leaked in six months anyhow. If it is dry, then the chances are that the pinion cavity has been drained to disguise the leaks for a few more weeks. A few bucks discount for a leaky rack is a gift to subsidise the inevitable. As for low mileage cars, an athlete doesn’t win gold by sleeping all day and night or taking Valium and antidepressants (fuel and oil additives). A weekly visit by the doctor to a lazy slob does not make the slob healthy either. It is little comfort to see a 7,000 mile 1984 Silver Spur which still has spheres marked 1983 fitted despite a book full of maintenance stamps. By contrast, if a high miler has a knackered interior and a noisy drivetrain, it doesn't take an expert to tell you so. Wow, I found a bargain on Ebay too good to miss you say. Personally, I will not buy anything for more than $100 on Ebay. Let’s face it. If a car is any good, why is it on Ebay in the first place ? Owned and serviced by a service technician. That's a great adverisement indeed. When I worked holidays as a mechanic in a garage when a university student, the leading hand repeatedly warned that the mechanic’s car is always the worst in the block. So many times it seems to be true. Just last month, my nephew bought his first car – a VL Holden. Owned by the mechanic, Hugh told me it must be good. Despite my anecdotal reply, he went ahead. The price was negotiated downwards by 30% for the easies, and so it started. Suddenly, it needed new disc rotors, radiator, water pump, transmission and and and. Mechanics can cobble anything together and make it work long after it should be scrapped. That bargain has already cost fives times its purchase price, and it’s not over yet. Thank goodness it’s a Holden, as the same often applies to Crewe cars. Then there’s the MOT - the roadworthiless test. With a few tweaks, any old rubbish will pass the MOT, especially if the seller has industry connections. The seller will hoist the MOT flag as proof that the vehicle is in great shape. What a laugh. That claim immediately arouses suspicion. Never trust a man hiding behind a white coat. So what’s the recipe ? Generically maybe none really, except always be prepared to say no, no matter how far you have travelled for the inspection. Sure, independent inspections are a Good Thing, but best is to take someone professional and familiar with the exact model along, carrying a set of tools and a few hours reserved to hoist, check and mark up the clipboard. The seller may object, and that’s a sure sign of trouble. Of course, a lower price may feel good, but that doesn’t solve the defects. Dealers ? Be fair. Be neutral. Good ones don’t buy rubbish, and the warranty may have some value outweighing the higher price. In the UK, an 18 month parts and labour warranty is not uncommon on a used Bentley. A few thousand in price either way on a private sale may soon be a very nice saving, or equally it may just be gobbled up in urgent repairs before you start. The biggest bargain is probably a genuinely well-maintained and regularly-driven one with a blown transmission. Those cars seem spectacularly finished to a genuine seller, when in reality the GM transmissions are fully overhauled for a song. RT. | ||
| StevenBrown Experienced User Username: stevenbrown Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2008 |
I agree with RT. A few Canadian provinces have a MOT type system. Its very easy to get vehicles to pass Ontario's safety inspections. Even easier with industry connections. I bought a non Crewe product yesterday. Neighbor travels on business. He's home for weekends and wanted a safe inexpensive car to use during that time. His teenage daughter will be driving it during the week. He asked for advise and then help finding one. For some reason main agents who carry more expensive new type cars in the U.S. Do not carry a wide selection of older than 5 year old vehicles. Several reasons why. At these places talk with the sales manager and the service department staff. Sales manager might get a nice trade in from someone buying a new car. When I was a dealer, had sales managers at, Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW and Porsche main dealers knowing Id buy their older trade in vehicles. Same with service departments at those places and even a RR/B dealer. With the latter they would often have fed up or just customers who wanted to sell. The service departments of these places also have customers who can't afford their bills for whatever reason. Bought a mid seventies Corniche Fixed head for well below what it was worth. Car fully restored and customer ran into financial trouble owing near $30,000 in engine rebuild costs. Owner signed it over to the main agent dealer and I bought the car well under the owing bill amount a few months latter. Sold it in half a day and thus far thats the most I've ever made reselling a car! For my neighbor I called a few Mercedes dealers asking if they had any older models and listed a few Id be interested. 3 calls and just happens one has an 1987 300 that was traded in 2 years ago. The car is so nice they have been loaning it to their service customers the last two years. Have a deposit pending inspection, but I'm fairly certain a main agent Merc dealer described this car accurately. $2380 U.S dollars, under 50,000 miles, new tires, brakes, all other service up to date. Interior and exterior in near showroom condition because they loan it to customers. Id say this was a good deal. If my neighbor does not like it, I'll either keep it myself or sell it on for a small profit! |
