| Author | Message | ||
     Greg Unregistered guest Posted From: 4.65.90.84 |
Hi Everybody, first time post here. I have the opportunity to purchase my first RR from a friend. It's a '77. How can I tell the difference between a Silver Shadow II and a Wraith? Thanks in advance for your help, Greg LaRiviere, Palm Springs, California | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Frequent User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2003 |
Greg; Easiest way is the boot lid. There should be a name (model) plate on the lip of the lid. The Silver Wraith is really the replacement for the Silver Shadow Long Wheelbase Saloon. The Wraith's wheelbase is 124" rather than 120" of the SS II. When the two cars are side by side it is easy to see the longer rear door the Wraith has. I also believe that the serial number for the Wraith's started with the letter "L" rather than "S", hope someone else here can confirm this point for you. | ||
| Greg Unregistered guest Posted From: 4.65.90.84 |
Hi Bill, Thanks for the response. The name plate you've mentioned happens to be missing on this particular car. Short of checking the serial number or putting two cars side by side are there no other visual differences? Also is one more desirable/harder to find than the other? Thanks again, Greg | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Frequent User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2003 |
Greg; Most of the Wraiths (if not all) I have seen have the Ever-Flex Top on them. However, I would not use this as away to judge the model as Ever-Flex could also be ordered on a Saloon. If you do not want to check the serial number you can take a tape measure and measure the wheelbase from wheel center to wheel center. If it is a Silver Shadow II the wheelbase will be 120" and 124" if it is a Silver Wraith II. There is also a plate (at least on SS I's) on the firewall right hand side that says "Rolls Royce Silver Shadow" I would assume that this plate would have "Wraith II" on it rather than "Shadow II" on the one you are looking at. However, the serial number is stamped all over the car and is easy to see. Also it will be on the vehicles registration and title. The question of more desirable is a hard one. During the SSII/Wraith II years of production (1977 to 1980) there was about one Wraith built for every four SS II's (2145 vs. 8425). That seems like it could have an effect but, during the SS I's production years (1965 to 1977) their was only one long wheel base made for every seven or eight Saloons (2776 vs. 16717) and yet I have seen no great value difference in the cars. Condition, history, color all seems to play a larger roll in the current values. Also, personally speaking even thought there is more legroom for the rear passengers I prefer the saloon. Why? One I do not ride in the back seat could never get (or trust) wife to drive me around! Two, to me the fun is in driving the car more than riding in it. And three-I thing the longer rear door of the long wheelbase (Wraith) looks awkward, almost like an after thought, unbalanced in proportion to the front doors. But I am sure there are other's that think this is a better look. | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Frequent User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2003 |
Greg; Another point: Look at the production date. The Shadow II and Wraith II started in Feb. of 1977 so it is remotely possible for the car to be a 1977 model (at least on US titles) and still be a Shadow I, this would account for no name badge on boot lid. If you really want to check it out get the VIN and order the cars history from the RROC, this will tell you a lot more. | ||
| Bill Coburn Prolific User Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 40 Registered: 4-2003 |
It is a bit suss that the chassis plate is missing. But the chassis number is stamped on the inner front mudguard adjacent to the front suspension tower. The engine number will also give you a clue as to its vintage provided the engine is original. Does it have rack and pinion steering if yes it is at leat in the Shadow II/Wraith category. The vinyl roof is no help since a lot of cars (SWB) had them fitted. As to preference go for the LWB everytime - better ride more room and more exclusive. | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Frequent User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 15 Registered: 8-2003 |
Greg; Besides the rack and pinion steering Bill mentioned, another major difference between the SS I (SWB & LWB) and the SS II/Wraith II was the SS I series has A/C only through the upper ventilation system while the SS II/Wraith has A/C upper and lower. | ||
| Greg Unregistered guest Posted From: 4.65.90.84 |
Wow! Bill & Bill, You guys are fountains of RR knowledge! Thank You. The car does have the Ever-Flex roof and I did check the serial number on the drivers(LHS) door post. It starts with an "L" so I guess this is a Wraith, (OK by me)and the production date is 12/76 which I assume makes it an early '77? The car is a repaint at some point in its life which might explain the missing badge on the trunk lid. Color is dark brown with white Ever-Flex roof and dark brown hides. Perhaps not the most desirable combination but none the less a very civilized car. Is the break between Silver Shadow I and Silver Shadow II, 1976 to 1977? Thanks again, Greg | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Frequent User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 16 Registered: 8-2003 |
Greg; Only SS II/Wraiths where made from 2/1977 on, as I understand it. This does not mean that there was not both SS I and SS II series being made in late 1976. That may be a Shadow I Long wheelbase rather than a Wraith, "L" was also used in SS I LWB serial number. The A/C and steering should tell you that. You can also look at it hydraulic system and positions of the accumulators this also might give you a hint, however my SSI (1/76) has the SSII system, so this I can say for sure is not foolproof. I still recommend ordering up the cars build sheets from either the RROC and/or the RREC. For us in the States (assuming that is a North American Model) the RREC seems to have better copies of the build sheets. But the RROC here has the Warranty and service sheets that where submitted to RR North America which can also be interesting and helpful when figuring out what may have been changed on the car. I would strongly recommend ordering these packets. | ||
| Richard Treacy Prolific User Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 52 Registered: 4-2003 |
If the chassis and engine numbers are higher than 30,000 it's a Silver Wraith II. Complete with leaky steering rack and dodgy aircon. I would prefer a LWB anytime as a car. I almost bought a beautiful Georgian Silver LWB Turbo RL, but chose a more expensive Brooklands Green SWB Turbo R (green Bentleys are worth A$7,000 more than any other colour in Europe, even though I prefer silver). There are many car parke where I live where the SWB cannot fit, let alone a LWB car. The VIN is stamped on the chassis on the right hand valence under the bonnet, on the compliance plate and probably twice in the driver's door jamb. The motor number is stamped on a boss at the front of the crankcase beneath the rear of the alternator. | ||
| Greg Unregistered guest Posted From: 4.65.90.84 |
Bill, Thanks again for the info. I would like to do that. Can you please tell me the procedure to follow? Greg | ||
| Greg Unregistered guest Posted From: 4.65.90.84 |
Hello Richard, I will check the sequence of the serial number this morning. And thanks for the "heads up" on the steering & A/C. Greg | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Frequent User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2003 |
Greg; The RROC in the US has a web site at: http://www.rroc.org/index.html and their phone number is 717.697.4671 I can not remember (from when I order my cars info.) if you have to be a member or not. The RREC is at: http://www.rrec.co.uk and their numbers are: phone: 01327.8111788 fax: 01327.811797 of course those numbers are in the UK so you will have to add country code. You will need to give them VIN number and credit card number, of course. | ||
| Greg Unregistered guest Posted From: 4.65.90.84 |
Bill, What type of fee is charged for this transaction? Is it just a token charge for services or does it tend to get expensive? Also what kind of time frame is involved to retrieve this info, just a couple of days? Greg | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Frequent User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2003 |
Greg; It has been a few years but I beleive the full Build Sheets are about a U$100.00 and the Chassis Records are like $25 to 50. Build Sheets are many pages and if ordered from RREC will take awhile to get, after all they are coming from UK. Chassis Records vary from car to car depending on what all was submitted to RR North America during the cars life. These records also take time to look up, copy and snail mail. If you have bought the car or are certian to these papers are well worth having. If I my suggest call both Clubs Monday and get more current information. | ||
| Greg Unregistered guest Posted From: 4.46.85.248 |
Well I've checked the serial number on the car and it begins with 26xxxx, so I guess it is a '76. Am I correct in assuming that the Wraith nameplate wasn't used until '77 so this is not a Wraith, although it is the long wheel base? And is there a different designation for the '76 long wheel base car or is it simply known as a Silver Shadow as well? | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Frequent User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2003 |
Greg; Correct it sounds like a Silver Shadow Long WheelBase. There was no other designation for it. As to '76 or '77 you will need to look at the title and the actual production date as some Shadow I's where still made into 1/1977. But based on the number it sounds like a 1976. Being an SS I would explain no model nameplate on the boot lid, as they did not use a model nameplate on the cars exterior for the Shadow I's. But, as I said in an earlier post an LWB is rarer than a Wraith, both in number produced per year and as a percentage of production. | ||
| Greg Unregistered guest Posted From: 4.46.85.248 |
Hello again Bill, This car is actually in need of another paint job as it's somewhat faded from the desert sun here. Would a color change from dark brown to perhaps a tan/gold be a major faux pas? Without the build sheet at this time, I can only assume the dark brown is the correct/original color to go with the dark brown interior but it simply looks "blah" on the car. Your thoughts? Greg | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 103 Registered: 4-2003 |
Greg, R-R/B cars were always crafted to meet the wishes of the owner and it is my understanding there were rare occasions when the factory refused customer requests which they believed were not in keeping with R-R standards. One example I personally am aware of related to a Silver Cloud ordered in the mid-1960's by Eric Carson from Gloucester NSW. Eric owned a successful timber milling business and loved caravaning - at this time substantial import duty concessions applied to new vehicles which had been owned for specific periods of time overseas so Eric ordered his car for delivery in the UK intending to use it for a "grand tour" of the UK and Europe by caravan to meet the ownership rules. Included in the purchase order was the fitting of a tow bar; R-R politely declined to fit this item as "their cars were not used for towing purposes". Being a typical Australian, Eric accepted the car and immediately had a tow bar fitted after delivery before heading off on his trip. As the custodian of a Brown [Coffee Bean Brown] 1973 Corniche, my personal experience may be of interest to you. I originally did not like the colour and both my wife who inherited the car and myself intended to change the colour to a more fashionable Blue similar to that on a Corniche in a R-R publicity photo taken near the Vale of the White Horse. As we attended more Club activities and I spent time detailing the car's paintwork, I found the car had been given a two-tone paint scheme by a previous owner and the top colour was a deep Brown with a distinct Copper tinge. When the car was polished with yellow wax to give a "wet look" shine, it stood out nicely against other vehicles with more fashionable and more common colours in group parking situations. However, one very important fact is that the car has cream/off-white upholstery which lightens its appearance - I would find the dark brown interior and dark brown exterior combination too oppressive [dare I say depressing?] and agree you need to have a more vibrant combination. I would suggest your tan/gold choice would be appropriate for the existing upholstery or you could retain the classic brown [even if this colour is not fashionable at the present time - it will return to fashion in the future as people become bored with current colours] and replace the interior with a lighter colour similar to our Corniche. Whichever way you go, you have the right of choice and your personal satisfaction should be your guide rather than the result of others influencing and/or imposing their opinions on you. Have attached a photo to give you an idea of how your car could look if you retain the Brown.  | ||
| Greg Unregistered guest Posted From: 4.65.95.182 |
David, Thank you for your thoughts. I feel much better about this now. I did aquire the car today. The brown looks the very same as yours and, if it did have the lighter interior We would be much happier with it. However, unless you've experienced the full force of the dark brown exterior coupled with the dark brown seats, door panels, carpets and dash topped off nicely with a dark gray headliner you don't know just how depressing a color combination can get. At this point it would seem to be much simpler to repaint the exterior to a lighter shade in the interest of "personal satisfaction". Thanks again, Greg | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Frequent User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2003 |
Greg; Sorry I didn't respond sooner, death in wife's family. I think however David gave you a wonderful answer. I can say that my Shadow is not original second owner change both paint and interior, I am third owner. According to build sheets mine came two-tone Sand over Walnut with Dark brown hides and beige piping. When I got it, it had been changed to off white and cream hides and burgundy piping and carpets. I do like the latter much more than original and would not have purchased if original paint scheme were still in use. However, all of our cars are white or off white, it is what I like. Another possible would be keep original paint color for now and added cream colored Ever-Flex top. Then later (down the road) change interior to a cream. I would do something though in your climate the heat absorbed by that dark a color scheme would be major. As to value I do not think that will be a major issue. I rebuilt a '73 Mustang that had been Light Metallic Green with green interior and black soft top it is now White with burg. interior and burg. top. Looks much better and did not decrease the value according appraisers who went over it for insurance company after work was done. They actually felt I might have, increased the value do to the original color being so unpopular. | ||
| Greg Unregistered guest Posted From: 4.65.95.182 |
Condolences Bill. You're absolutely correct about the heat absorbtion here on the edge of the Mojave desert with the dark colors in and out. (9 out of 10 cars here are white) Black cars simply look dead after a couple of years here. I'm sure that's the reason for the repaint on mine and the fact that it's due for another repaint now. That's why I'm thinking the light tan/gold and staying with the white Everflex roof. Down the road I would very much like to change the complete interior to the light cream/beige, for comfort as well as style. Best, Greg | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Frequent User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2003 |
Greg; I would think hard about that combination. You will not have a 2-tone car but rather a 3 tone one. Most if not all cars (including RR/Bentleys) with 2 tone paint work have the top color matching the upper paint color. I am not familiar with Everflex tops so I am not certain if they can handle a color change or not. If they can then your color combination would work assuming the top is changed to match the upper paint work. If the top can not handle a color change then might I suggest leaving the top white and a solid paint color such as the light sand metallic. As stated earlier in this string beauty is in the eye of the beholder and you should do whatever you feel looks good. But, to make sure that you are going to like the color change you should find a picture of a RR painted in the colors you are think about and then using a picture editing software change the top color to white and see what you think. With photo software it is a lot easier to play with color combinations on a picture then have a car re-stripped and painted a third time. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 107 Registered: 4-2003 |
Greg/Bill, Good advice - I think the two-tone/Everflex combination would probably not work and stripping the Everflex to replace it or paint the roof would require considerable rectification/preparation work to ensure there are no lumps, bumps or visual imperfections on the refinished roof. The UV situation in the Mohave desert would probably mean recolouring the Everflex will not be a viable option as the colour would bleach out over time. | ||
| KC Saayman Unregistered guest Posted From: 168.209.98.67 |
Hi all To get back to the original question at the beginning of this thread, the easiest way to tell the difference between a Wraith and a Shadow is the Wraith has a smaller rear windscreen. I hope I understood the question correctly! Regards KC | ||
| Robin Hickman New User Username: rhickman Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2003 |
KC, I believe not all Wraiths had the smaller rear window. | ||
| Bill Coburn Prolific User Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 44 Registered: 4-2003 |
As I recall the smaller rear window was part of the 'division package' in that it gave some privacy to the rear seat occupants. In fact during a visit to the factory I saw the bare bodies being immersed in the swimming pool of primer. The factory superviser told me that the production engineers had forgotten to tell those 'down the line' that some bodies would be coming through with the small rear windows. The bodies used to arrive at the 'pool' on trolleys and were picked up very simply by a suspended 'T' piece wich simply poked through the winscreen aperture and the rear window aperture. But when the small aperture arrived the 'T' piece would not go through. Hasty mods solved that problem. | ||
| Greg Unregistered guest Posted From: 4.65.81.214 |
Bill/Dave, Sorry for the lack of clarity on my part. I didn't mean to paint the car in the two tone combination of tan AND gold. I was thinking of painting it a solid color of tan OR gold. Or as you suggested Bill, a sand metallic. Thus having just the single light body color with the white Everflex roof. But, I agree, I never thought a three tone combination would work. Best, Greg | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 109 Registered: 4-2003 |
Greg, A little advice from the "sun-burnt country" - be very careful with the supplier of your paint regardless of whether you use Tan or Gold as you need a paint that is specifically formulated for exposure to high levels of UV radiation. Our roads used to be littered with imported cars whose paintwork degraded very quickly due to our conditions. If you cannot source paint with high UV resistance in your locality, I would suggest you contact me direct about purchasing paint made here for our conditions and having it shipped to the US. | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Frequent User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2003 |
David; Nice idea but importing paint to the states could be a problem. OSHA has to approve all paint used (unless Greg is doing his own painting at home) and so does EPA. If Greg does this he will have to ship in all the hardeners and primer and other materials just to make sure that they all work together. Also will want to make sure who ever is shooting the paint has worked with that brand before. | ||
| Richard Treacy Prolific User Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 56 Registered: 4-2003 |
Standox, a BASF spin-off, is in my opinion the best paint available. I used it on my Turbo R and it is perfect. Using a compterised spectral analysis they match your desired colour exactly, and also have the full range of standard and custom R-R/B colours by code. STANDOX is a modern water-based type and therefore environmentally friendly. Pains have come a long way since the 1970s. Until the late 1970s, all Mercedes-Benz imported new were routinely repainted on arrival in Australia to preserve the MB image. Silver-blue metallic Volvos lost their paint in flakes in 10 months in Australia and looked awful. However almost all modern automotive paints are very hardy these days, so I would not worry too much on the brand, but STANDOX is especially good. Remember, the Nevada Desert is not exactly UV free either !! Two-pack paints should be avoided, and are illegal in many countries anyhow (like here in Switzerland). Colour is a personal choice, but my opinion is that browns, especially doggy-poo dark brown, tans and golds are awful on our largish cars. Having said that, my father's BMW in Canberra is Cashmere Beige and looks terrific. I simply would not choose it though, and love the Brooklands Green on the Turbo R here, and the Silver Mink on our R-Type and T-Series in Canberra. Each to his own. RT. |
