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Robert Wort
Grand Master
Username: robert_wort

Post Number: 309
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, 23 July, 2006 - 11:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I see on TV, they are advertising brake pad replacements for $29.95 with a lifetime guarantee.

I wonder what their get out clause is when we turn up in our cars?

Check out the link.
http://www.brakesplus.com.au/


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bob uk
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Posted From: brig-cache-4.server.ntli.net
Posted on Monday, 24 July, 2006 - 01:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This works because the guarantee is not transferable to the next owner and the average time of owner ship is approx 2 years.

The cars that are kept longer are few.

Also the advert will may be say FROM $29.95.

Unipart do life time guarantee batteries these batteries are the same as a 3 years guarantee but more expensive. They know that the owner will probaly sell the car on before tha batery expires. The ones they get caught out on are offset by the extra price that all the buyers have paid.

Plus some buyers will lose the receipt and hence the guarantee.

I do know of a Truimph 2000 saloon that has been owned by the same family since new and they get a free new battery every 4 years or so from Unipart.

Batteries are not mileage sensitive like brake pads and I suspose every now and again they get a high mileage driver but there again a high mileage driver is more liable to change the car more often.

On some cars esp. front wheel drive the rear pads last years before a problem arises usually a caliper fault first which naturally when being repaired a new set of pads is fitted. A caliper fault would invalidate the guarantee on the pads.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Robert Wort
Grand Master
Username: robert_wort

Post Number: 310
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, 24 July, 2006 - 09:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Good point Bob.
I have actually ordered a set of disc pads from Autobarn in Eltham (about 5kms. away from me). They actually had the part numbers in their stocklist for Silver Shadows, Spirits/Spurs.
The front set (2 sets actually as we all know) were $77.98 and the rear set was $99.95, all GST (VAT) inclusive. Not as dear as I thought they would be. The Bendix ones are dearer but I opted for the softer pads as I don't do regular heavy braking and hence they will also be kinder on the discs. I'll also be ordering calliper piston dust boots from PBR as advised by Richard Treacy in case any are split.
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 686
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 24 July, 2006 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Robert be warned that soft pads need watching. We had an early SY that had them - Bendix I think, on the rear and finished up ruining the rear rotors.
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Robert Wort
Grand Master
Username: robert_wort

Post Number: 311
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, 24 July, 2006 - 10:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes Bill, I did note that and I will be keeping a watch on them. I check the pads once a month anyway as a matter of course. I check all the fluids, belts and hoses weekly. There is still enough meat on the current pads to last about 2,000 or maybe even 3,000 kms. but I'd rather change them now before they wear down any further.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 596
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 25 July, 2006 - 06:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob and all,I had the first unipart battery in 82.
have had five or six in total.
After the second one the part number and battery was withdrawn however they had to honour the life time guarantee given in the first place and have continued to supply one that is not quite the correct hieght.

Watch them diodes they can play hell with battery drains.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 597
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 25 July, 2006 - 06:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Maybe the guarantee is for the rare but somtimes failing of the bonding material that over time can
fail.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1057
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 25 July, 2006 - 06:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Robert,

I know that drum brakes are completely different, but for a time I used soft bonded linings, fashionable at the time, on my R-Type, instead of riveted ones from DON (Crewe's source, from Oz no less) expecting the bonded linings to wear and the drums not. As Bill alludes, the softer linings wore out rather early as expected, but the drums wore out at an alaming rate. They were fine, almost new dimensioned, at 550,000km but completely shot at 650,000km after the soft linings. New drums cost the price of a very bad day when you have lost the house on the Roulette wheel (although I don't partake).

As long as the replacement pads are not too different, don't worry ! The rotors on our T-Series have never been replaced in 350,000km and are only barely run in. I have had to replace all the rotors on my Turbo R way back at 200,000km, but they have an alpine duty to do.

Lifetime warranty = lifetime of the brake pads. 30,000km maybe.
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Robert Wort
Grand Master
Username: robert_wort

Post Number: 312
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 25 July, 2006 - 09:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard, Pat and Bill,
Just to be sure, I did ring Autobarn during the day today, keeping in mind Bill's warning.

They have assured me that the pads are to specs and not too soft (whatever that means).

But they are prepared to guarantee the product.
When I take delivery of them, I'll pass on the part numbers.

As I stated before though, I do keep regular checks on the pads and bearing in mind Bill's advice, I'll keep an even closer watch.
Thank you all for your input.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 626
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 26 July, 2006 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have been watching this topic with great interest and think it is time for my "2 cents worth".

I am not an advocate of "soft" linings for two reasons:

1. They are more prone to fade during heavy braking and this is precisely what you do not want in an emergency stop situation. Avoiding or being involved in an accident is often determined by how quickly you can stop the car if you cannot steer the car away from the impact. Soft linings are intended to give a "plush" pedal feel and to minimise brake squeal when applied - the compounds lose their friction efficiency at a much earlier stage than "hard" pads causing the brake fade problem.

2. It is a well-known observation that when "soft" and "hard" materials abrade against each other; the soft material will wear the hard material away instead of the expected reverse effect. This is why hard crankshaft/camshaft journals running in soft whitemetal/babbit shell bearings wear and the bearing shells do not wear. The counter-side of this phenomenom is if two materials of similar hardness abrade against each other; they tend to "spot weld" or fret giving a very rough wear surface and high wear rates. It is normal practice to design and specify materials for wear applications to have different hardness values so the wear surfaces are uniform and smooth to give the desired service life. It is not always possible to make the cheapest and easiest-to-replace component the sacrificial item due to other constraints e.g. the crankshaft shell bearings instead of the crankshaft journals.

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bob uk
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Posted From: brig-cache-4.server.ntli.net
Posted on Friday, 28 July, 2006 - 07:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am not well versed in the different grades of brake linning materials.

I do know that there are only about 4 types which cover the majority of vehicles--- not hundreds.

However I think the softness or hardness of the pad does not mean that soft pads will not wear the disc and hard pads will.

I have noticed that since the change from abestos based linings to non-asbestos that rotor wear has increased.

Brake rotors appear to be made of the same stuff which is nodule cast iron.

Not sure about this though --over to Mr Gore.

Dave is absolutely correct I have seen many a solid bearing that has worn a harder shaft. King pins for example.

White metal bearings in cars are made to be soft so that they absorb debris into the surface this up to a limit stops the bearing from failing as mechanical time passes the debris builds up and wears out the shafts journal. Which is why fitting new shells to a crankshaft that has not been reground is never satisfactory and often fails shortly after.

A key future of white metal bearings is the continual presence of oil. Without oil the bearing will fail -- very quickly.

Rocker shafts are often rerplaced with out changing the bushes in the rockers because on a trial fit they felt much better than with the worn shaft. But if the bushes are examined carefully debris will be found embedded in the the bushes running surface- result new shaft wears quick.

White metal bearings are also about the quietess bearing there is.

Honda made a car called S800 which had ball and roller bearings through out and the engine was mechanically noisey.

White metal bearings size for size will also take much more load and but will accept a only small amount of shaft deflection--- must be small.

Where as ball bearings and certain types of roller bearings will accept shaft deflections.

A seized up bearing occurs where the heat generated by friction cause the two components to friction weld together -- axle banjos and engine valves are friction welded-

Then the weld breaks leaving a rough surface which then re-welds is self back together and in short time the bearing completely fails.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 630
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 28 July, 2006 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bob,

The basic "everyday driver" rotor is nodular cast iron as this has the best combination of initial cost, friction characteristics and heat/wear resistance. An increasing number of composite rotors are now making an appearance but the cost disadvantage means they are usually restricted to competition and high-performance vehicles.

I deliberately didn't go into the wear mechanism for shell bearings as I would have become too pedantic in my explanation - your description is 100% correct as to why the "lapping" of the hard journals is observed.

If I may indulge myself; a further useful property of white metal bearings is that the white metal melts very readily if oil lubrication fails thus increasing the clearances and causing horrific mechanical noises that WILL cause the operator to stop the machinery. The liquid white metal will provide a degree of short-term lubrication for the journals that usually allows the shaft to be reconditioned and placed back in service after the event.

The engineers of past eras used a lot of commonsense and practicality to avoid problems whilst minimising repair costs should failure occur. It is to be regretted that this type of practice is now almost universally vetoed by accountants obsessed with initial cost rather than the overall cost of ownership over the life of the item.
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Robert Wort
Grand Master
Username: robert_wort

Post Number: 313
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, 28 July, 2006 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I thought Id take delivery of the pads before I put any answer in.
The above posts put enough concern into me to investigate these pads further.
The good news is that I ended up with standard pads and not soft ones.
The fronts are generic Ferodo ones but will fit quite readily. Richard Treacy has fitted these ones before without problems to the disc rotors. Later Spirits and their derivatives will need to have the pads drilled and chamfered to accept the wear sensors, but the rears are the same pads as supplied to Rolls-Royce by Ferodo.
In all, they cost $196.00 inclusive of GST.








(Message edited by Robert Wort on July 28, 2006)
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Robert Wort
Grand Master
Username: robert_wort

Post Number: 315
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, 30 July, 2006 - 06:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Robert Chapman has genuine rear brake pads also at A$85 plus GST (About A$97).

In fact Robert has an extensive range of parts, all at reasonable prices.

http://www.rachapmanautomotive.com.au/

I bought the pads from Autobarn as an exercise to see if was possible to get them outside the normal channels.
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bob uk
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Posted From: brig-cache-4.server.ntli.net
Posted on Wednesday, 02 August, 2006 - 05:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Engineers used to place a stink bomb that went off at a temperature that was lower than the melting point of the bearing. This is unsuitable for car engines.

When then Mallard A4 Steam locomotive was tseted to 126 MPH in the 1930's the engineer ignored the stink bomb that had gone off because the centre big end was about to melt and held the throttle wide open to beat the world record which was 114 MPH he got to 126 and shut down and limped the rest of way at a much reduced speed. The Mallard was chosen because it was 5 years old and the bearings were not to tight or too slack.

Nowadays car engines are not really re-conditionable. Because they are designed using finite anaysles and computers. This means that the engine will do the job it was designed for --say last 150,000 miles and then it is scrap after that the car makers expect the owner to buy another car.

Most new cars have a 3 year warantee and the average milage in the UK is 12,000 per year so average car has 36,000 miles when the warantee expires. From a business engineering point of view why make things last longer and give benefit to an owner that did not buy the car new and was not the customer of the maker.

There are some exceptions like Bentley and Rolls-Royces which are life time cars hence why they have to cost so much.

The make that is very much disposable is Jaguar and always has been.

Which is why old ones seem to be so unrelialbe. Jags were not designed to be restored and used agian. Which from one point of view makes Jaguar very good engineers. The XK engine is very ordinary when put along side similar engines such as Aston Martin and Ferrari. But when one considers that the engine was mass produced at a far cheaper price then it becomes an exordinary engine.

Colin Chapman ( LOTUS Lot Of Trouble Usually Serious ) said that if a car wins the race and falls apart one lap later then the engineering was just right if if does not finish then it is under engineered and if it can do another race then it is over engineered.

I have had my Shadow since 1989 and it is still OK I suspect that I am "stuck" with it and one of my sons will be "stuck" with it when I am gone.

Old friends when they appear marvel that I am still driving the same car.

I notice that modern Mercedes cars have become disposable. Pre 1990's are good after that not so good.

(Message approved by david_gore)