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ross kowalski
Prolific User
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 1457
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Thursday, 27 August, 2020 - 05:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

article

I wonder how true this is.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 3085
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, 28 August, 2020 - 04:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Based on the reference cited in the article, and the images provided, I'd say it's true.

And if you look at https://prod.rolls-roycemotorcars.com/en-US/home.html#
and pay attention to the imagery used, and particularly on the "Muse" page, I'd be willing to bet money on it.

It appears that RR is trying to out-Bentley Bentley in the race to the top of the bling car mountain. Definitely tons of money to be made. In my opinion, though, the prestige and exclusivity to be lost is greater.

Brian, who actually likes the logo updates
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3769
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Friday, 28 August, 2020 - 08:31:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I understand the marketing strategy behind the new logo with one caveat:

Given the adoption of computer technology for car system management and the associated technology incorporated and which will be incorporated in future models and inevitable cessation of the manufacturer holding spare parts after a set period of time, I have serious concerns relating to their future preservation by enthusiasts once this factory support ceases.

Without ongoing access to the factory "mother ship" computer resources and availability of replacement parts especially for niche market vehicles, owners will face increasing difficulties diagnosing and fixing ongoing maintenance and breakdown issues.

I am now experiencing this with my partner's 2009 VW Eos with problems that can only be diagnosed and rectified by a dealer with access to the VW factory computer resources especially where updating the vehicle management systems is necessary when upgraded service parts are installed. This makes DIY maintenance very difficult and expensive given the dealer's monopoly on the resources and information needed to maintain the vehicle both for scheduled maintenance and unexpected problems that will arise in future.

My concern is a situation will arise where I will not be able to preserve any of our current and future vehicles and will have to restrict my interest to older vehicles without computer technology where traditional repair and maintenance can be undertaken by DIY owners including being able to source custom-made replacement parts no longer available from the manufacturers as is now common practice by preservation enthusiasts.

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Jeff Young
Frequent User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 433
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, 28 August, 2020 - 09:13:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I own a first-gen Vanquish. It had a lot of at-the-time cutting-edge tech which was, shall we say, perhaps a little under-developed. Couple that with it being old enough that the factory isn't that interested any more and you would think we'd have David's conundrum in spades.

But a funny thing has been happening. There is a cadre of owners who have taken the bull by the horns, designing new parts, figuring out how to repair the ECUs, and even developing a new wiring harness in an attempt to remove one of the faults that tends to lead to smoked ECUs.

Granted less "beloved" cars might still face an unserviceable future, but there is hope.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 3086
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, 28 August, 2020 - 10:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff,

I actually suspect that a cottage industry, at a minimum, and probably more than that, is going to spring into existence to a degree far greater than what's available now in the next 10 years.

"Old Car Fanatics" are not rational, and one need only look at classic-era Rolls-Royce parts makers and virtually anything related to the Ford Mustang to see that writ large. When parts become "made of unobtainium" someone starts making them. Our very own Kelly Opfar, and his British Tool Works, is an example of that. Jim Walters also makes certain parts like the reservoir filters for SY series cars (I don't know his whole range).

And the Mustang is certainly not in the rarified air that Rolls-Royce is, but there is a greater likelihood of making a profit, rather than just covering costs, when a mass market car is involved.

God love the dedicated fans of small-production cars that do what needs doing, regardless of what that has been, to keep them on the road!

Brian
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Chris Gillings
Experienced User
Username: chrisg

Post Number: 148
Registered: 04-2001
Posted on Friday, 28 August, 2020 - 10:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

There's more information (than you might want) at https://www.press.rolls-roycemotorcars.com/rolls-royce-motor-cars-pressclub/article/detail/T0314766EN/rolls-royce-announces-new-brand-identity
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3770
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Friday, 28 August, 2020 - 16:35:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,

You are right about the probable future availability of parts from after-market suppliers.

The main problem with our computerised cars [VW - I am looking at you in particular] is the vehicle management modules software is often upgraded during the model run and whenever module gremlins/failures arise, the cure often involves a complete new module that has to be "reflashed" with the latest software version and individual coding applicable to that model and series VIN group - this facility is wholly dependent on the vehicle VIN and is ONLY available to accredited VW service dealers as far as I am aware.

For this reason, DIY owners are being advised to upload and save their system settings and coding before even thinking about resetting the vehicle's electronics using a professional scanning and coding unit [i.e. nothing cheap/low cost purchased from Ebay or similar sites].

This very much a "work in progress" situation and the only long-term solution I can see is an open-access VW Technical Library similar to our RRMC Library where DIY owners can upload their codings and settings by model and VIN classification for use by other DIY owners with module problems.

The cost of a VW Service Dealer diagnostic check alone is around AUD400 before any work arising from the check is undertaken.
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ross kowalski
Prolific User
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 1458
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Saturday, 29 August, 2020 - 01:07:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

Rosstech in the USA makes a great VAGCOM clone. You can do anything you might need to from poking a 1 bit to a register of the ECU so a 2004 jetta diesel thinks it has a manual to remapping the throttle.
I put a manual into an auto one of those recently, also, FYI don't do an auto to manual swap in a 2004 jetta.

Brian,
I like the new branding as well.

Regarding all the plastic and computer nonsense. I would think you will see a lot of electric conversions. There are companies
Working on "crate" electronic motors. They will be a similar length of an IC motor / trans, have front and rear mount points and similar output rpm / power of IC setup.

This won't take care of chassis computers for rear cameras, infotainment, hvac, windows, etc. But will make putting one on the road easy enough.

I think that will be a likely option for the orphaned brands and models
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 3088
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Saturday, 29 August, 2020 - 03:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

And I will simply observe, as a mater of fact, that there is a huge "world of bootlegging" already in existence with regard to things like IETIS (and not just for RR/Bentley - IETIS was used by multiple manufacturers).

Once certain models drop off the "we currently service 'em" radar for dealerships, and when companies have not made the information for servicing available via legal means, it does get into the hands of those who are actually doing the servicing one way or another.

Eventually there is going to have to be legislative relief surrounding this. It is impossible for independent service shops to function over the long term without access to things like workshop manuals and their electronic equivalents. And after the auto makers and their dealerships have had their equivalent of "patent protection" for this stuff, there should be a legal obligation to release it at no or low cost. There is a "right to service" movement here in the USA that has been gaining some traction because of the current situation. When everything was in hard copy, obtaining cast-off hard copy was a cinch. I had the hard copy service manual for my 1989 DeVille which is now with the DeVille with my friend who bought it. When I had my 1999 XJ8L, bootleg copies of JTIS were readily available on virtually any Jaguar forum out there.

The makers are either going to be legally forced to release this information or it will be obtained otherwise.

And in the realm of electronics, there are plenty of reverse engineering geniuses who just love a challenge. But if they have the diagrams for a device, they don't even need to do that.

Brian
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3771
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Saturday, 29 August, 2020 - 08:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ross,

I have the Ross-Tech VCDS unit and it is both easy to use and my version allows full downloading and recoding of the vehicle's control modules.

Next time I am back home and checking the Eos, I am going to start downloading the individual codes as the car was recently serviced due to a clogged diesel exhaust flap valve [now replaced with an uppgraded version] and the VW dealer updated the system at this time.

SWMBO has owned her car for 12 years and I have never driven it.....................
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ross kowalski
Prolific User
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 1459
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Monday, 31 August, 2020 - 05:00:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

More computer bashing,

I recently put in a steering rack in a Chrysler Aspen SUV.

Centered and locked steering wheel, pulled rack, centered and installed new rack, unlocked steering wheel, centered and aligned steering.

The car tracked perfectly and the steering wheel was centered, ... Except the TCS light was on.

Turns out the "centered" steering wheel was off ( we're talking minutes here). The car had to go to the garage for a recalibration where they center the steering wheel then loosen the steering angle sensor then bump it back to a zero reading.

So the job is easy just standard tools.

18mm socket
21mm socket
11mm fitting wrench
13mm fitting wrench
10mm box end wrench
3000 USD snapon computer for code reset

Easy peasy.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 3089
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Monday, 31 August, 2020 - 06:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, we're back to "will need legislative relief" area here.

OBD-II itself became legally required after the standard was set, at least in the US market from 1996 onward. And readers that can deal with it are dirt common, and a great many of them can reset ECUs and get into things like ABS & SRS.

If there is to be any hope that cars can be maintained into the indeterminate future, there is going to have to be law that requires standardization and that standardization will result in far less expensive computer equipment afterward.

What's going on now is untenable over the long term.

Brian
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 2283
Registered: 04-2016
Posted on Monday, 31 August, 2020 - 16:38:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Gents,

In the modern truck world I work in, there are new trucks that do not even have any diagnostic ports, but everything is done via the factory talking direct to the truck a via 4 or 5 G network

The brand I work for, I identified a missing item in the dash when scrolling through the options, once I then identified that it was common across a full certain model, it was then updated by the factory overnight. Every truck around the country when next started had the item in the dash available to the driver.

What they are aiming for is that no hard connectivity to the vehicle at all.

Even the service department now gets contacted by the truck itself when it sees an anomaly with any of its systems.

The service department then contacts the fleet manager (who would have also have received a message from the truck) to organise the system to be checked or hardware to be replaced.
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Jeff Martin
Experienced User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 128
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Tuesday, 01 September, 2020 - 02:59:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

That's a bad idea, another reason why I'll never buy a new truck.
Suppose the communication device to tell what's wrong with the truck gets sick, then what, at least with the hard wire of OBD2, you can get around that.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 3090
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 01 September, 2020 - 04:22:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

I presume you're talking large commercial trucks, not pickup trucks. I know that fleet management is headed that way. But still, fleets dispose of units, so they still need to be serviceable by other owners.

Jeff,

I agree, at least in theory. I would never purchase a vehicle that did not give me a very easy way to access diagnostic data. These days, I wouldn't care if that was an OEM-supplied app that could be downloaded to my smartphone, but its essential that I have access to said data should I need to or just want to. Given how cheap it is to include an OBD-II port, and that the standard is still in pretty much worldwide use, I'm not expecting those to go away anytime soon.

Brian
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ross kowalski
Prolific User
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 1464
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 01 September, 2020 - 04:27:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

OTA updates are great that's why we have them in Windows 10, etc. I think the fear is that manyfacturers will make changes and push them out without proper testing.

Usually with computers a seemingly inconsequentuial change causes unintended consequences at a later time.

I would guess there are sandbox truck / server systems where the new code and deployment is tested before going out to the network, but as with all such things, you can only test what you know.

To Brian's point, software is as critical to modern cars as hardware and if there isn't a requirement for manufacturers to archive and make avilable this information at a later date, there will be even more perfectly servicable cars going to scrap.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2360
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 01 September, 2020 - 04:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Step up a gear with Tesla, they has been doing this since 2012 and downloads with updates however the cars onboard computer talks to the factory and the car has an OBD port as well.

BTW stockholders and battery day is Sept 22nd.
Going to be an interesting event!
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Graham Phillips
Frequent User
Username: playtime

Post Number: 301
Registered: 03-2019
Posted on Tuesday, 01 September, 2020 - 23:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

G'day everyone,....


Just to digress back to the topic,...

I don't like the new look of the 'Spirit of Ecstasy'. Sorry to have to say that.

Ok, where were we up to,...?

Oh yeah, I'll never get a new vehicle now with all the computers etc in them, to much of a PITA.

I guess I'm just old school.



Graham.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 2284
Registered: 04-2016
Posted on Saturday, 05 September, 2020 - 07:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian,

Yes mate, trucks over 18 tonne GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass)

The way the salesmen are now instructed to sell the trucks are with service agreements (we have 3 different levels)
This means the one finance payment per month covers the truck and all servicing.
The top service agreement gives them full 24 road side assistance, priority at the service department, and any parts that are due for regular replacement (eg brake compressors, turbo chargers, adblue & fuel pumps etc) these are automatically replaced at a pre determined time/speedo reading.
Even engine rebuilds can be included. Itís almost like there is no need to trade in your truck for 10-15 or 20 years now as your payments cover everything. So age and distance isnít really an issue with an ageing truck anymore. It is far more lucrative to extract a set fee from a customer over 20 years than to make a small profit on selling another truck.

That being said, some of the trucks I have seen are maintained beautifully much better than a private fleet can do.

Not to mention if a part is fitted to anyone of our Volvo trucks in the workshop during this maintenance, that part gets a full 4 years parts and labour warranty.
If a private fleet bought the part, and fits it in their workshop, it only gets a 12 month part warranty, no labour, not good if it was a big job to fit it.

Most big fleets now only have basic service staff to attend to daily problems, like blown globes, flat batteries flat tyres etc.
their once large workshops are now mostly shut down or turned into warehouse areas for shipping transferee.

Iím with you Graham.
Iím not a fan of the new Spirit Of Ecstasy, nor am I liking the fact they want to turn the brand into a number one fashion house.
That just sounds wrong.

Graham,
Nothing wrong with being old school mate.

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