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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1954
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Monday, 28 May, 2018 - 02:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Does anyone know if it's ok to mount a fire extinguisher horizontally. I want to fit one in the trunk but the sides are not high enough to allow vertical mounting of the one I have bought.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1881
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Monday, 28 May, 2018 - 05:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This is the one fitted horizontally in my Mercedes from new.
This is the powder type with pressure gauge.
BTW once now and then best to remove and shake to keep the powder loose!


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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1955
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Monday, 28 May, 2018 - 05:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for the info Patrick
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Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert
Prolific User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 175
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Tuesday, 29 May, 2018 - 04:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Please, PLEASE throw the powder extinguisher as far as you can! The mess it leaves in/on wherever you had to discharge cannot be described in words!
Get yourself a Halotron (legal) instead. Or, if you have access to, an aviation halon extinguisher (illegal outside aviation). Most powerful extinguishing agent known to mankind.
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 794
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 29 May, 2018 - 05:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

What happened to the halon extinguishers which used to be available in any hardware store years ago but which when I went to get another recently, have disappeared? The prior one worked quite efficiently on a kitchen grease related fire except that the blast was so powerful it did blow the grease around a bit...still preferable to the fire and as you say quite preferable to the powder given that it seemed to be just a gas rather than liquid or solid being propelled. What's the backstory here?

.
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Alan Dibley
Prolific User
Username: alsdibley

Post Number: 146
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 29 May, 2018 - 05:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"What's the backstory here?"

Poisonous fumes - the products of decomposition of the liquid, I think.

Alan D.
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 795
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 29 May, 2018 - 05:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well I'm thankful I did not die putting out the grease fire!
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1539
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 30 May, 2018 - 03:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Halon was banned all over the world well over a decade ago. All industries were given a few years to conform. Most are now using CO2 as a replacement.
The problem with Halon was its contribution to the hole in the ozone layer (or so I was told).
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 802
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 30 May, 2018 - 05:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar and Geoff,

CO2 isn't much a replacement. Use a hlin substitute like jean-pierre said.

Also, from someone who just used dry chemical in anger, it's only slightly better than fire.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1915
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 30 May, 2018 - 07:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ive seen the results of the powder extinguisher after discharge on many trucks.

If not 100% completely cleaned up it becomes quite damaging and corrosive to any bare metal parts.
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Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert
Prolific User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 176
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 30 May, 2018 - 09:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Halon is indeed severely ozone-depleting. It is however the only extinguishing agent approved for aviation use.
Despite being officially forbidden (outside aviation), Halon is commercially readily available at aviation suppliers such as this one:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/search/search.php?s=halon

A good substitute for our cars is Halotron, an ozone-friendly variant.
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1605
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 30 May, 2018 - 09:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Years ago a friend parked his pretty new Humber Vogue in an underground local car park. Having alighted he was horrified to see serious smoke issuing from under the dash. He had no extnguisher but a fellow Parker spotted the problem lept out of his car brandishing a fire extinguisher and liberally sprayed the contents appropriately.

My friend who now fits new feathers to management wings in a remote location, had the car delivered to the agents for repairs. A phone call the following day advised that it had been written off thanks to massive damage to equipment under the dash caused by a powder extinguisher!!!
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 803
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 30 May, 2018 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,

Great, I just sprayed two full powder ones under the dash of the 63 caddy (and a full co2 unit).

Patrick R,

Great, it's corrosive too. I do know it makes an unholy mess.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1916
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 30 May, 2018 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yep,

I can see why cars have been a write off as Bill has mentioned.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2904
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 30 May, 2018 - 02:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

In every case mentioned so far, it appears to me a "one type of extinguisher suits all fires" choice has applied to the type of extinguisher purchased whereas this should not the case as detailed below:

"When a fire ignites, homeowners have little time to think beyond putting it out; the time to think about the type of fires you are most likely to deal with is when you are selecting fire extinguishers, not when you need them. Each class of fire is extinguished by different agents, and fire extinguishers are manufactured and labelled according to which type of fire they put out.

Read the Label
The ingredients in each type of fire extinguisher dictate the type of fire it puts out. Every fire extinguisher has a color-coded label that indicates the class of fire for which it is intended. Class A fire extinguishers are used with ordinary combustibles such as wood, paper and cloth. Class B fire extinguishers are used for flammable liquid fuels such as oils, grease, gasoline and paint thinner. Electrical fires require a Class C extinguisher, and Class D extinguishers are meant for combustible metals, such as magnesium. Class K fire extinguishers are used to extinguish cooking combustibles, such as animal and vegetable fats and cooking oils.

Dry Chemicals
Mono ammonium phosphate is a dry chemical used in Class A, B and C fire extinguishers. It is non-conductive, but corrosive, so it must be cleaned up soon after extinguishing the fire. Sodium bicarbonate is another dry chemical used in fire extinguishers, but is meant for extinguishing B and C fires. It is a nontoxic, noncorrosive dry chemical which requires minimal cleanup. Potassium bicarbonate is a dry chemical used in Class B and C fire extinguishers. It is non-conductive and noncorrosive and, like sodium bicarbonate, is easily cleaned after the fire is extinguished.

Wet Chemicals
Class K extinguishers are wet chemical fire extinguishers and are often found in commercial cooking areas. These contain a potassium acetate-based agent that is discharged from the extinguisher as a fine mist that forms a soapy foam. This foam suppresses any vapours and steam and prevents fire reflash.

Water and Carbon Dioxide
Historically, water has been the most common fire extinguishing ingredient and is often used in combination with chemicals in fire extinguishers, but itfs not best for all types of fires. Because it is conductive, it is not used in Class B, C or K fire extinguishers. If water were used in these types of fires, it would only worsen the blaze. Carbon dioxide is also a common fire extinguisher ingredient because it is environmentally friendly and removes oxygen from the fire, which extinguishes the flames effectively. It isnft as efficient as some chemicals, but carbon dioxide leaves minimal mess and can be used around electrical equipment with minimal damage.

Halotron or Halon
Halon extinguishers are no longer made, but some may still be in use. These have been discontinued because dangerous gases are formed when halon is used to put out fires, so respiratory equipment must be worn when these extinguishers are used, and the area must be well ventilated afterwards. Halotron is an alternative to halon that is used to extinguish types A, B and C fires. It is a vaporising liquid that is ozone-friendly and leaves no residue behind, so it requires no cleanup and causes no damage to electrical equipment.

Metal Powders
Class D fires burn at high temperatures and, because they contain metals, they react violently with water, air and other chemicals. Class D extinguishers contain powdered metal, such as copper or sodium chloride, and sand. Powdered copper extinguishes fires fueled by lithium and lithium alloy metals, while sodium chloride extinguishers work best for fires involving uranium, powdered aluminum, magnesium, potassium and sodium.

Extinguishers are colour-coded for the type of fire-fighting they are best suited for - the link below applies to Australian Standards and overseas readers should check their local standards for the applicable colour codes in their location:

https://goo.gl/images/ZgTztv

fire

A garage/workshop ideally should have 2 types of extinguisher available; a non-corrosive Sodium/Potassium Carbonate Powder Extinguisher and a Carbon Dioxide Extinguisher for wood, paper and plastic fires [I would not use this for liquid/flammable gas fires due to its propensity to act as a blow torch pushing flames into undesirable locations]. The standard generic Dry Powder extinguisher will invariably contain corrosive Mono Ammonium Phosphate making "the cure worse than the disease".

CLEAN-UP RECOMMENDATIONS:

A. DRY CHEMICAL FIRE EXTINGUISHER
1. Sweep or vacuum any residue that has settled on the affected area.
2. To break down the silicone in the dry chemical, spray the affected area with a solution of 50% isopropyl alcohol and 50% warm water. Allow the solution to penetrate the residue for a few minutes, then rinse with warm water.
3. To neutralise sodium bicarbonate and potassium bicarbonate based dry chemicals, wash the affected area with a solution of 98% hot water and 2% vinegar. Allow the solution to sit for a few minutes; then rinse with warm water.
4. To neutralise mono ammonium phosphate based dry chemical, wash the affected area with a solution of hot water and baking soda. Allow the solution to treat the excess agent for a few minutes, then rinse with warm water.
5. Wash the area with a mild soap and water solution; then rinse.
6. Blow the area dry to remove excess water.

WET CHEMICAL FIRE EXTINGUISHER
1. Confirm all fuel sources to the equipment have been shut off.
2. Make sure to wear rubber gloves. If the liquid or fire extinguishing agent comes into contact with your skin or eyes, flush thoroughly with water.
3. Use hot, soapy water and a cloth or sponge to wipe away the foamy residue. Scrub all surfaces that have come into contact with the excess agent.
4. Once all surfaces impacted with the residue are cleaned, rinse and allow time to dry before restoring power to the equipment.

CLEAN AGENT FIRE EXTINGUISHER
No special precautions need to be taken after the fire extinguisher is used.

CLASS K FIRE EXTINGUISHER
Rinse affected area with a solution of soap and water..
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1885
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 30 May, 2018 - 11:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

[A garage/workshop ideally should have 2 types of extinguisher available]

IMO three would be a better choice, the third would be foam.
Most efficient with fuel fires in a workshop garage.

Horses for courses.
For a RR Shadow most common fires are from the 363 high pressure hose failure this sprays the brake fluid onto the hot exhaust that is turn caches fire, the clean up after will soon get rid of powder from the extinguisher.
Like wise is the well known brake caliper fire if they are allowed to run hot with the hub grease catching fire and burning well.
Again the powder extinguisher is used and a good clean up will not do any harm as all will be checked and reconditioned.
Other engine fires the powder is the one to use as the clean up soon after will be ok.

Any fire inside the car [dash bulkhead etc] use the co2 type.

The use of the fire extinguisher is not just for our own cars but for other road users.
The fuel systems on most moderns are high pressure with the rail still being pressurized after an impact accident that shuts down the pump [petrol or diesel].
Many car fires soon get out of control when the volatile fuel ignites with folk trapped inside.
I would not hesitate to use a powder type that covers all conditions.

Electric cars are another story.

Some of the car and workshop types!



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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1956
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 31 May, 2018 - 01:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brake fluid on a hot exhaust is precisely the reason I went out and bought a fire extinguisher. In my case the aluminum sealing disk in the front acv was leaking. The brake fluid was being forced through the thread of the end cap of the acv and dripping down onto the accumulator and then the hot exhaust beneath. I was thinking if that catches fire I will lose the whole garage, so went out immediately and bought an extinguisher. Since I had not researched the issue I bought a powder one. I think Patrick is right in saying that powder is ok for the most likely places for a fire on the car. I will however purchase a CO2 one as well.

What a useful thread this has been.
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Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert
Prolific User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 177
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Thursday, 31 May, 2018 - 05:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Also, getting some training on how to properly handle a fire extinguisher is essential. It's not point and shoot. You'll learn that opening the bonnet as you always do, is the first mistake people make during an under-bonnet fire.
Local firefighter stations offer theoretical and practical training for free or for a small fee. Do it!
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Mark Aldridge
Grand Master
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 542
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Thursday, 31 May, 2018 - 06:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The Fire extinguishers permitted by the Motor Sports Association are either FX G-TEC Gas ( halon replacement) ,or 2 litre foam. This is I believe the same for taxis and private hire. Dry powder is not permitted in car by the MSA . I have CO2 and 6 litre foam in the workshop, together with fire blankets and the same upstairs and downstairs in the house with a Wet chemical ABF extinguisher and fire blanket in the kitchen. The cars have a 2 litre foam in each, secured in the boot.
Fire blankets are very useful when welding to protect surrounding areas from sparks etc.
Mark
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 796
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Thursday, 31 May, 2018 - 07:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yea, Yea, I get it. Clean up is to varying degrees "possible" but still a hassle and when I look at the material posted by David and scan down to the "Clean Up" section and see under Clean Agent Extinguishers (halotron) "No special precautions need to be taken after the fire extinguisher is used" my mind says "Bingo" that's my choice and forget the powder cleanup project which simply substitutes one problem for another. Just saying.

.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1886
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 31 May, 2018 - 04:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yea, Yea, I get it. Clean up is to varying degrees "possible" but still a hassle and when I look at the material posted by David and scan down to the "Clean Up" section and see under [Clean Agent Extinguishers (halotron) "No special precautions need to be taken after the fire extinguisher is used" my mind says "Bingo" that's my choice and forget the powder cleanup project which simply substitutes one problem for another. Just saying.]

The backstory here.

Might not have a car or house left if the halotron runs out or does not smother the flames in time!
Sad for the occupants trapped in a burning RTA.
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 798
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Thursday, 31 May, 2018 - 05:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

True, and if the powder runs out, the good news is that you don't have to worry about the otherwise necessary cleanup!

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