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Robert Howlett
Prolific User
Username: bobhowlett

Post Number: 171
Registered: 9-2010
Posted on Friday, 01 December, 2017 - 05:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi guys

I came across a article that was interesting about the pumps on the shadows.

The article said the brake Pumps on our cars are nothing more than diesel fuel injectors off a locomotive/train. Not sure if this is true. Has anybody else heard of this?

cheers
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2750
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 01 December, 2017 - 06:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes,

The pump appears to be from a large single cylinder diesel engine used on farms/industrial plants etc.

Despite much searching, I have never found any documentation showing the Shadow pump although a retired plant engineer once told me he thought they may be a Lucas/CAV product.

.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1591
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 01 December, 2017 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The very first pre production Shadow brake system is rumoured to have used modified CAV diesel injectors.

The brake pumps used on the actual cars are not diesel injectors. The manufacture of the pumps would be right up Lucas/CAV street.

The brake pump has no rack or slit to vary the amount of liquid pump out per stroke.

Early Godesses -Citroen- had similar jerk pumps. 2 running off the cam shaft(1955)
So most lightly Citroen pumps were used to test the idea.
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Ben Curtis
Frequent User
Username: burgundyben

Post Number: 84
Registered: 12-2015
Posted on Friday, 01 December, 2017 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It wouldn't be an injector would it? The old school diesel injectors were just a pressure relief valve and nozzle to spray.

Surely, the brake pump is more akin to one chamber of the fuel injection pump?
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2751
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 02 December, 2017 - 07:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ben,

The high compression ratios used in diesel engines require a feed pump capable of feeding the injector nozzle in the combustion chamber/pre-combustion chamber with sufficient pressure to create a uniform mist spray against the back pressure from the compressed air in the cylinder.

Single cylinder diesel engines are very common in agricultural/industrial applications creating a market for single cylinder pumps as there is no need for a multi-cylinder pump. I would like a silver coin for every time I have started a single cylinder Lister diesel in a dairy twice a day for milking the cows.

I can start one in my sleep; check the fuel tank, open the compression release valve, pull the handle out of the recess in the flywheel, put much effort into rotating the flywheel to 15/20 rpm before closing the pressure relief valve and waiting expectantly for the first "chug" from the exhaust to signify the engine was up and running. Different story on a frosty winter's morning though, out with the blow-lamp and warm up the injector pump and cylinder head before trying to start the engine otherwise you would not get the engine started no matter how fast you spun the flywheel.

As the Shadow hydraulic system used accumulators to store pressurised hydraulic fluid between brake/levelling system use, single cylinder pumps were more than adequate with a two pump configuration providing ample backup should one pump fail.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1593
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Saturday, 02 December, 2017 - 08:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ben you are correct, we mean one element of a diesel jerk injection pump.
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Ben Curtis
Frequent User
Username: burgundyben

Post Number: 85
Registered: 12-2015
Posted on Thursday, 07 December, 2017 - 07:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David, first vehicle I drove was a dumper truck with a single Petter, aged about 9 years I think we were, took both of us, one to wind the handle to get get it up to speed and one to drop the compression lever. We were only allowed to drive it in first gear to start with. Bloody bastard thing it was!
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2762
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 07 December, 2017 - 07:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ben,

you certainly learnt to curse/swear very quickly as the kid given the task of hand starting the one cylinder diesel.

Once you learnt the language of the curse - you would then be shown where the bottle of ether was hidden to help winter morning starts........
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christopher carnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.130.236.201
Posted on Thursday, 07 December, 2017 - 09:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You have obviously never started a Field Marshall tractor having used the last cartridge!

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2764
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 08 December, 2017 - 07:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christpher,

Fortunately as it seems, I have never started a cartridge diesel.

Field Marshall tractors were a pre-WW2 feature but replaced by conventional start diesels post WW2.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1603
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 08 December, 2017 - 08:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bamford ( the B from JCB ) single lister wind engine up drop comp lever and blat blat chug chug.

Always started 1 or second go.

Instead of a bucket it had a 4 ft square box which we used as a tool carrier for gas bottle etc.

I hated the thing.

Remember in Flight of the Phoenix when Capt Towns ( james Stewart ) was starting the engine with cartridges. Hardy Kuger was shout at him to stop.

Imagine having a Rolls-Royce with a cartridge starter.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1764
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Friday, 08 December, 2017 - 09:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Like this David?
https://youtu.be/KTAR6oRdhvY
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1765
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Friday, 08 December, 2017 - 09:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Like this Christopher?
https://youtu.be/VEurohAwrmA
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2765
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 08 December, 2017 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

Yes however the engine was much larger and the cylinder was horizontal rather than vertical. The flywheel was 4 or 5 feet in diameter from memory and needed a good bit of ooomph to get it moving however the handle was close to the periphery which helped due to mechanical advantage.

The engine drove a large vacuum pump, water pump and the mechanical linkages to the slide valves that fed vacuum/air to the teat cups and milk return lines to the milk storage tank. There was also a belt drive to the cream separator used to separate the cream from non-quota milk; quota milk was the high-value item and was sold as drinking milk, the local dairy factory made butter from the cream and the skim milk went to the pig pen for conversion to pickled pork, pork steak/chops, smoked pork legs and the rest ended up as brawn for salads/sandwiches etc. The bull calves were emasculated and subsequently sold as steers for butchering and the heifers [female cows] were either sold or kept for herd replacement.

Have seen the Field Marshall tractors started with cartridges at the Macksville "Rusty Iron" Rallies - not all started first time like the one in the video........
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1665
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 08 December, 2017 - 05:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"You have obviously never started a Field Marshall tractor having used the last cartridge!"

Not a problem, having looked out to a farmers working Marshall up to the late seventies.
With a good working engine the cartridge was a second starting device for cold weather.
The norm with a good engine [two stroke engine with piston rings not gummed up] one located a roller wheel on TDC with the cable wound round in the grove of the flywheel, this held the de compressor on until the roller ran off the flywheel at TDC using the crank handle with instant start up.

Gosh this brings back memories after buying the tractor, used it to fell a huge dying elm tree getting the tree to fall in the safe direction using the tractor with a long 1 1/2" rope.
Took the tension up with the saw cutting the final section, the tractor kept pulling with the rope stretching, the front wheels jumping on every explosion of the single cylinder engine, the torque was unbelievable. As the tree still standing and the saw nearing the final cut I had visions of the long rope snapping like an elastic band heading in my direction [tractor had no cab] with the tree felled in the wrong direction.
I kept going with the Marshall power and with luck on my side the tree came crashing down.
Never to be repeated again!
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1605
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 08 December, 2017 - 09:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I felled a tree in a similar manner using a van. Never again.
The next tree I got an insured professional tree cutter to do the job.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1669
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Saturday, 09 December, 2017 - 04:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Robert the towering tree with the trunk was about 3'6" wide!
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1604
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 09 December, 2017 - 07:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It’s great to see you old farts reminiscing - a dying art I suspect. Cartridge starting of anything has apparently been completely out of my purview. Wait! There is a memory being squeezed out of attending an ‘air show’ - time just after the last world stoush. This goggle-eyed youth watching one of the first operational jet combat aircraft. Viewed head on from the spectator bunch, I was still totally adjusted to propellers - jet engines were still in the Dick Treacy category!

Suddenly the engine exploded which adjusted my mother’s laundry commitments immediately. When the smoke cleared the exploded engine was still there happily whining itself up for battle! Apparently, I had witnessed a cartridge start. Not unlike the offered tractor system. Unlike the later demonstration here, in the event of an aerial engine stall, the pilot separated from his machine toute sweeet.

Thank you all for your recollections
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Jonas TRACHSEL
Prolific User
Username: jonas_trachsel

Post Number: 150
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, 09 December, 2017 - 05:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I remember Charles Voegele with his Brabham Oldsmobile at a Swiss hill climb contest in the 1960ies. Of course this car was the star of the event, and everybody wanted to have a look from close-by. When the time came to warm up the engine for the start the mechanic politely asked the onlookers to step back, but in vain. He warned the gazers a last time and then fired up the engine with a burst of darting flames from the twin exhausts. The girls with their miniskirts behind the car had no stockings left....

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