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John Beech
Grand Master
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 308
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Monday, 10 April, 2017 - 09:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

There are several different starter battery types in common use, e.g. car batteries, marine batteries (as separate and distinct from deep-cycle batteries, which are also for marine use, but for a completely different application). Also, there are AGM (Advanced Glass Mat) batteries, GEL batteries and lithium batteries. It can be confusing and to help guide you when considering purchase of a starting battery, I've started (no pun intended) this battery-thread.

In brief, we want car batteries versus marine batteries, and AGM is better. And while there's a school of thought that a deep discharge battery is useful if your car sits for long periods (I subscribe to it), in general there's a better way to go about having a ready to use battery all the time. Anyway, with respect to why these batteries exists, let's discuss the differences between car batteries, marine batteries, and deep-cycle batteries then AGM, GEL, and lithium . . . and the aforementioned better way if your car sits for extended periods.

1. Car batteries have thinner lead plates than marine batteries. The advantage of thinner lead plates is a bigger jolt of juice is available to the starter. Also, the battery may be discharge below 50% before the risk of irreversible plate-damage increases. This is all to the good.

2. Marine batteries have thicker lead plates. They exist as a distinct class because thicker lead plates better withstands physical abuse. Think of the shock being transmitted to the battery as a hull slaps across the waves. Engineers also make the case thicker (stronger and heavier). Again, to better withstand the physically more demanding use. However, the marine battery has a downside when used in cars because they deliver a bit less current to the starter and more importantly, there's a significantly higher risks of damage when discharged below 50% versus a car battery (or 20% for a deep-discharge battery).

3. Deep-cycle or deep-discharge batteries are a hybrid of the two. The case is thicker to better withstand the abuse of bouncing across waves, but the plates are even thinner (thinner than car batteries) thus allowing them to be discharge deeply (down to 20% like car batteries). This, before the risk of plate-damage increases. They principally exist for powering trolling motors where being drawn down to within 20% of capacity is routine, which would just kill an ordinary marine battery very quickly.

4. What about AGM (Advanced Glass Mat)? This is having your cake and eating it too. These batteries have a fiberglass mat placed between the lead plates (to help better absorb vibration). These were developed for military use and quickly made their way to commercial use. Think having the thin plates of a car battery for deeper discharge and a bigger jolt of current when starting with the ability to better withstand physical abuse. A marine version adds a thicker battery case. The downside is more case means less space for lead plates, or fewer cranking amps since in general, the more lead, the better (which is why a larger physical battery is better than a smaller one)

5. GEL-batteries are old technology using silica to mix with the sulfuric acid and create a jelly like acid.

6. Lithium-batteries are a recent development. This is a completely different technology and is used in some aircraft for starting purposes and are making their way to commercial auto use but require electronics to monitor the state of charge of individual cells and are beyond the scope of this briefing.

Summary: while marine and deep-discharge are both intended for on-the-water use, a deep-discharge and marine battery has been created for completely different purposes. The marine battery is the equivalent of the car battery and is used principally for starting the engine. Think being 50 miles offshore with a fractured battery case or separated plates and having to call for a very expensive marine tow. If you discharge the marine battery below 50% you have a higher risk of damaging it. The deep-discharge is a marketing term for a more heavy duty case, but with the thinner plates (like a car battery) making it more capable of a deeper discharge, e.g. as when used by a trolling motor - or if, for some reason, someone is repeatedly cranking the car until the battery is flat. None of us are guilty of ever doing that, right? Anyway, it's OK to substitute a deep-cycle for a car battery - but don't mix it up with a marine battery that in general makes a poor substitute for a car battery because it cannot be discharged as much without damaging it.

What's the better solution for a car that sits for long periods of time? Add a small battery tender. And if the car sits outside, or you feel adventurous, use a solar-powered version and run the wires to the car.

Finally, at the time of this writing (early 2017), when it's time to replace the starting battery in my car, which is used about twice a week, I will purchase a Concorde Lifeline Group 27 battery, part number GPL-2700T. They're not inexpensive but the extra expense will be forgotten soon enough.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1372
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 11 April, 2017 - 12:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I use the battery recommended by the battery supplier.

which is UK spec no 069 lead acid.
SLI. 75amp/hour.
SLI means starter lights ignition. 60.
they last about 4 years. I charge for 36 hours at 3-4 amps once a month. max continuous charge is 10% of 75amp/hour or 7.5 amps
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michael vass
Prolific User
Username: mikebentleyturbo2

Post Number: 298
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 11 April, 2017 - 06:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi John
What are these "special" batteries for cars with stop/start?
My 2012 mondeo keeps saying low battery but always starts fine.
Cheers
Mike
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1360
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 11 April, 2017 - 08:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Direct from Google.

A deep-cycle battery is a lead-acid battery designed to be regularly deeply discharged using most of its capacity. In contrast, starter batteries (e.g. most automotive batteries) are designed to deliver short, high-current bursts for cranking the engine, thus frequently discharging only a small part of their capacity.

This is what I have always understood as to why automotive batteries should not be used in a marine or camping type situation and visa versa.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1234
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 11 April, 2017 - 11:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Michael is it still the original battery or has it been changed.
why I ask is that I think the Ford stop start battery should be of the silver calcium type for use with this system.
Also the battery if changed should be calibrated to the cars battery obc or the ecu.
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Todd Keleske
New User
Username: toddk

Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2017
Posted on Wednesday, 12 April, 2017 - 09:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

So, what I am seeing is place a trickle charger in place when leaving the vehicle sit for 5 months. Is it not advisable to just disconnect the battery as I've done this on other vehicles with no issues when reconnecting. Your thoughts.....Thx, Todd 2002 Azure
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Jeff Young
Grand Master
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 343
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Wednesday, 12 April, 2017 - 05:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Older cars are fine with the disconnect method. Some more modern cars are not.

I haven't tried it on my Arnage, but I know my Vanquish hates it. My Arnage mostly gets used enough that I don't have an issue; the Vanquish is on a trickle charger when not in use.

Cheers,
Jeff.
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Alan Dibley
Frequent User
Username: alsdibley

Post Number: 53
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 12 April, 2017 - 06:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It may be worth mentioning that the usual term (in the UK) for a long-time-idle charger is "float charger". A float charger has a voltage-dependent output which does not allow the battery voltage to rise above a pre-set level, by cutting the charge rate to zero. Uregulated chargers reduce the charge at high voltage but may not stop charging completely.

Unfortunately each of the different types of battery mentioned above probably needs a float charger with different cutoff point, so.....

Alan D.
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michael vass
Prolific User
Username: mikebentleyturbo2

Post Number: 299
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 12 April, 2017 - 06:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Patrick
Yes still the original battery, John made no mention of these Calcium batteries, can I not put a "normal" one on then?
How do you calibarate a battery ?
from wiki
Silver Calcium alloy batteries are a type of lead-acid battery with grids made from lead-calcium-silver alloy, instead of the traditional lead-antimony alloy or newer lead-calcium alloy. They stand out for its resistance to corrosion and the destructive effects of high temperatures.
Cheers
Mike
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Jeff Young
Grand Master
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 344
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Wednesday, 12 April, 2017 - 07:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Alan is correct; what I actually use is a float charger (CTEK), not a trickle charger.

Cheers,
Jeff.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1367
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 12 April, 2017 - 08:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mike,

I run an Amaron silver calcium zero maintanence battery.
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Todd Keleske
Experienced User
Username: toddk

Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2017
Posted on Thursday, 13 April, 2017 - 01:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thx for all your responses. I won't need to make a decision as to disconnect or use a float charger till nxt November. Just not familiar enough yet as to all components that may be an issue if any, if I totally disconnect. I would think it would be ok to do so, as my 2014 big GM SUV has more computers on board and upon reconnecting the battery after 5 or 6 months all components work as they should. Todd 2002 Bentley Azure
PS: My wife's 2002 Volvo (purchased new) has been disconnected every year for 6 months. What amazes me is that it's still the original battery since 2002. Currently has 29,000 miles on the clock.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1237
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 13 April, 2017 - 04:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Michael, in most cases No not the normal type. To calibrate the system after replacing the battery on later stop start ford vehicles requires entering the new battery info into the PCM/OBC with a scan tool, the type of battery, battery serial number and CCA rating. This is necessary because the vehicle's charging system is programmed to gradually increase the charging rate as the battery wears out or gets old. If the charging rate is not reset back to that for the new battery, the battery may overcharge and fail.
There are other probs but I would go to the main agent to get it checked out first.
Sticking a battery on the old way is a no go!
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michael vass
Prolific User
Username: mikebentleyturbo2

Post Number: 300
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Thursday, 13 April, 2017 - 06:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for the advice Patrick
Mike
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1380
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Thursday, 13 April, 2017 - 07:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

That's very interesting information Patrick.

And we thought, a Shadow was a complex machine.
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michael vass
Grand Master
Username: mikebentleyturbo2

Post Number: 301
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Thursday, 13 April, 2017 - 07:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi al
I do think they have gone too far with electronics on cars now, in the begining they improved the reliability of cars fuel injection electronic ignition etc but now they are making cars less reliable IMHO
Mike
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1241
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 13 April, 2017 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mike I am beginning to think the same.
We are all spoilt with the comfort and all safety gismos that the modern cars have.
They do give some probs, some more than others.
My ever day car for long trips is a Citroen C6 3.0 HDI. Last of the true Citroens with seven spheres sky hook and road hook, the ride IMO is better than the new RR.
The car even has a juke box all with voice activation.
Music will go louder as the speed increases with a rear spoiler that goes up at 80 MPH,thats a give a way, the cars suspension then drops as it goes into sport active.
I think there are about 28 RHD in the UK.
I have to use Lexia with the lap top to figure things out and sometimes forget the path to what I was setting up it so complex.
IMO it keeps the brain active but for how long!
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1687
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Friday, 14 April, 2017 - 01:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Michael

I agree - We all know the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". The engineers version is "If it ain't broke, there aren't enough features."

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2262
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 14 April, 2017 - 03:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Eh, I'll be the contrarian and say, as a general rule, I don't think that electronics are decreasing reliability, at least as I think of it.

Yes, if electronics fail they tend to fail - there's no limp-home mode if it's a mission critical ECU. That being said, my experience has been that the electronics in cars have been some of the most robust parts of the car. My daily driver is a 1989 Cadillac with the digital dash (and fuel injection, etc.) and it all still runs without a hitch. I did have the twilight sentinel stop functioning when the photocell that detects ambient light levels finally died about a month ago. Simple fix.

Even my Jag, which could have some interesting behaviors if the battery was beginning to reach the end of life, wasn't really having electronics problems, it was the electronics that were experiencing power supply problems, and generally at start up.

Now, all of the above has nothing to do with whether end-user features in modern automobiles have gone way overboard. I've felt that we've been way overloaded with choice in regard to how many settings we can set in many cars for a very long time now. The 1996 Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon I have seems positively quaint by the standards of the last 10 years, but when my partner's father bought the thing he went to a half or three-quarter day class to learn how to operate all the various bits on the car. What we've got today by comparison is the "Microsoft Word of the Automotive World" in regard to features. There are so darned many that there is no one, and I include engineers at the factory, that has a comprehensive understanding of all of them. This is generally not a good situation at all, particularly if some feature that could be important is buried twenty-five button presses, three screen taps, and five curses deep!

Brian
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1242
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 14 April, 2017 - 04:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

And years ago the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" was the reason for most of all the breakdowns on journeys, contact's closing up, fan belt burning out engines boiling, brake shoe's wore out, loss of brake fluid with brake failing, coolant leak's with head gasket failure. can't think of the last time with a failed head gasket.
clutches burning out through no free play the list goes on and on.
Today we have a far less a % of breakdowns with a higher volume of vehicles on the roads.

I can still cope with most of the diagnostics but IMO the codes only point you in the direction of the unit fault, get many faults that can be electrical connections and bad earths.
The RR in their day rarely failed to proceed.
Most were well serviced before they broke.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1384
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Friday, 14 April, 2017 - 07:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

When I said "I thought a Shadow was a complex machine " I was thinking about how it was probably the most technologically advanced car in the world at the time. A thousand relays, miles of wiring, amazing creature comforts, but wow, they pale into insignificance to a machine you "have to hook the laptop up and tell it what the serial number of the battery is"
I agree with Brian, modern car electronics are very robust and reliable. Compare this with some earlier electronics that were only let down by bad connections, wiring and even a crook battery terminal or a simple dry joint.
I like that term if it ain broke don't fix it, but as Patrick said, some people use this as an excuse to not maintain properly, big mistake.

But I do think things have got over complicated if you need to tell your car the number of the battery you just installed.

Complex yes
Reliable yes

Need to be so so complex, probably not.

My 72 Shadow has air cond, power steering, power windows, power seats, wow even hazard lights which were still decades away from being the norm in an Australian car.

I don't use any more than these in my 2016 company car.

And it has to be told what battery it has.

I like the KISS principal.
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John Beech
Grand Master
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 325
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Friday, 14 April, 2017 - 09:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes, Patrick, but look at why it needs to be told. The system is varying the charge based on the state of the battery. Seems pretty smart to me. Then again, I'm an engineer. Anyway, the discussion may be profitable for me because I just put another battery in Lynn's car (this, nearly 2 years to the day from the last one). Symptom last time was repeated this time. One day Command ceases to work. Pull the fuse and replace same (hard reset) and it works again. However, next time Command fails (within a week or so), the battery is within days of your arriving at the car and nothing works - not even the key! This despite taking the car in for a battery/charging system check up at Autozone (where they, for free, connect their computer to the car and analyze the battery and charging system). It passed with flying colors (and I was really perplexed and thinking it was time for a visit to Mercedes for them to hook up the STAR computer system, instead. Anyway, based on this conversation I am now wondering if the CAN bus in her car needed to be notified of a new battery (like the Ford previously mentioned).

By the way, modern electronics in cars rely on a 1 or 2-wire serial bus network called the CAN bus. CAN stands for Control Area Network and was invented by Bosche. Serial systems seem perplexing to folks new to the concept but in a perverse way, it makes a technician's life easier. This is because a basic understanding of how networks function and how serial devices function go a long way toward helping understand how electronics in all of today's automobiles function. And before you poo-poo the whole concept, recognize the benefits in terms of reduced wiring when linking various systems, e.g. anti-lock brakes, airbag sensors, etc. because it uses just two wires for communication. For example, back in 2000 when I bought an old car in CA and drove it east to NC (my only coast to coast, did it in a week with a good friend) we proceeded largely along I-40. When crossing the Rockies just west of Flagstaff, AZ the elevation exceeded 7000'. Yes, the Rockies extend to 14,000 but the road tops out at half that. My point? The car had carburetors and was miserably rich as the climb progressed (to the point I had to stop 50 miles from the summit and substitute smaller jets and then swap them back a hundred miles later). Had I been driving a modern car I would never have noticed the decrease in oxygen as I climbed because the system would analyze the O2 sensor data in the exhaust and adjust the mixture accordingly. However, CAN bus (not to be confused with cannabis, the wacky weed some smoke) is also how the car 'knows' there's a problem with the ransmission before it fails as its ECU send a signal to illuminate a warning light on the instrument panel, or that a turn signal or brake light has gone out. With respect to the later, of course I know there are other ways to accomplish this, e.g. as a Rolls-Royce of Tootsie's vintage uses a circuit with relays and a warning light. Thing is, a similar vintage American cars fail the dash lights when the tail lights are out. And here in lies the beauty of the CAN bus because all cars rely on the same methodology )instead of each manufacturer implementing their own idea). So another benefit exists for the repair industry. For example, can you grok the benefit when a mechanic schooled in Chevrolet's can work on a Ford or Chrysler, or Mercedes or Rolls-Royce and not obsolete his knowledge? Basically, using a serial bus just makes a lot of sense. And FWIW, my airplane uses a RS-429 serial bus to accomplish a similar task, and computers today use USB (Universal Serial Bus) to connect components like keyboard, mouse, memory devices, external drives, etc. (or if you're a proponent of Apple's computers, they use Firewire and Lightning - both an implementation of a serial bus). Thing is, you have to change with the times and learn the system.

Here's a primer written by a civilian:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/automotive-can-bus-system-explained-kiril-mucevski

And a more generalized (and thorough explanation):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus

And a commercial explanation (e.g. by a company selling something):
http://canbuskit.com/what.php

And, finally, if you prefer a brief video on the subject instead of reading - 8 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-T62NPYxPQ

--
John who remains bewildered by women but who largely gets along with technology
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michael vass
Grand Master
Username: mikebentleyturbo2

Post Number: 302
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Saturday, 15 April, 2017 - 01:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi John
I know about can bus since having mercs and fords break down on me! one device dies and takes down the network the whole car dies with it!
Great on paper not in the real world sorry.
If the devices were not linked the faulty one would just need fixind instead of costly main dealer computer diagnosis.
I'll keep my '89 bentley thanks lol
Mike
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Mark Aldridge
Grand Master
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 423
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Saturday, 15 April, 2017 - 02:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John, I take on board the theory and practice. When the mulsanne has a flat battery and I have a day of appointments it takes 10 minutes to swap batteries to one I have borrowed from another car and no expensive dealer callout and faffing around.Had can bus on a Jag XJ40 and that was a pain with electrical faults.
Mark
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1246
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Saturday, 15 April, 2017 - 04:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The can bus is just the communication highway.
The system sends the faults etc to and from the OBC ECU etc they in turn store them into codes.
There is a built in fail-safe mode or limp home mode in most cases a total failing is when the warnings ie on board log warnings etc have not been delt with in a short period.

Many faults are caused by bad connections and earthing points but unit failing do occur.

IMO we are still in the intermediate period with electronics.
The youngsters of to-day look at the old car type contact ignition systems with amazement, compared to they say simple todays electrics.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1394
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Saturday, 15 April, 2017 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi John,

The first thing I notice with your excellent post is that it seems, the more height tech we have gotten, battery life has decreased.
2-3 years is awesome if you get that out of a modern battery.

John,
Just a little bit about me.
Before I worked for Volvo group as a development engineer, I spent 10 years working for Eaton, the power management juggernaut, but who also have been making truck transmissions (Roadranger & its derivatives) for 10 years.
I helped in the introduction of the Eaton automated transmissions into Australia. And am fully schooled in construction of can bus systems for trucks and the maintenance there of.
My work mates and I helped Volvo group in the construction of the whole can bus networks for the first Japanese truck in Australia to use an American made heavy duty automated transmission.

In the end Eaton supplied the transmission and hardware to Volvo group to fit into their trucks, Volvo manufactured the wiring and all software to integrate the transmission into the truck.
This was very successful as the Japanese followed our instructions to the letter.

The Mack factory (also owned by Volvo) when fitting the automated transmission into their range of trucks, however did not follow our instruction, and were terribly unreliable, simply due to the fact the truck could not communicate properly with the transmission, due to poor wiring.

This then resulted in many years of me visiting dealerships to help their technicians to locate issues and faults.

Just to put everyone in the picture regarding fault codes:

A fault code is generated when a given item of hardware can not do its job.

What most couldn't understand is that, it was not necessarily the hardware item at fault.

So when a fault for say an X-Y shifter fronted, the first thing the tech would do would be to replace the $2k X-Y shifter.
This may not have been the issue.
If the shifter when tested by the OEM (me) and it tested ok, warranty was rejected.

The problem would re surface days, months or even hours after the hardware was (wrongly) replaced.

This ended up in un happy customers, dearships with thousands of dollars worth of parts, and hundreds of hours of labour that were not covered as warranty.

I wrote extensive diagnostic manuals that would start the investigation into the failed X-Y shifter, that began right at the start by load testing the batteries.

I guess these many years of can bus diagnostics and arguing with dealers, and trying to keep customers happy turned my hair grey.
All the end user saw was the truck failed as it could not select gear, so the transmission was to blame. Customers were not interested in the poor wiring excuse or anything else.

This is why I like the KISS principal, as a manual 18 speed Roadranger is a joy to drive, and very robust and simple, it has been since that type of twin countershaft transmission was invented by the Fuller brothers (who used the idea based on their heavy duty washing machine gearbox) in the late 40's.
Turning this into a modern system then reduced the reliability of them based on the brand fitting this bullet proof system into their trucks with poor wiring.

So can bus, for all of its good, can be the root of all evil, thus my dislike so to speak LOL
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2265
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 16 April, 2017 - 08:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

I feel for you. The same sort of thing goes on in its own form when you're writing software and documentation for same that is to be run in data centers. I cannot count the number of times I'd get beeped (it was the 1980s) from the data center that "the job won't run." I'd then ask what they'd done to try to rectify the problem. Almost invariably the response would be something that amounted to step number 25 in the incredibly detailed step-by-step instructions that were simplicity itself at each step. Then I'd ask, without naming the step number, "Well, have you done action that's step number three?" Very often the answer was no, and my immediate response would be: You have directions about exactly what to do, and in what order, before ever paging the person on call. You have not done them. Start at item number one and if you get to the end without the problem being rectified then page me again.

I never got paged a second time.

So, the above story being shared, it wasn't the software that was bad, it wasn't the instructions on how to handle issues that were bad, it was the fact that you have people who refuse to follow those instructions even when it would make everyone's life easier.

A lot of the nonsense I've seen with people "throwing parts at" a problem that OBD indicates is wrong is because they refuse to look at the peripheral inputs before going straight for something that has nothing at all to do with the problem. I have no training as a mechanic, but do I ever have training in doing thorough step-by-step refined diagnostics that carried right over into the world of being a mechanic on an OBD-equipped (or other, for that matter) car. One of the first things you're told is that the codes are not refined enough to definitively indicate the actual problem, but they do point you to the system to start methodically chasing down.

There is virtually nothing that one can do to get around operator error nor people who can't understand that a room is pitch black because it's night time and the light bulb's burned out - not because it's an inherent property of the room and think the room needs to be replaced.

Brian
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1402
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Sunday, 16 April, 2017 - 08:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

We share the pain of these memories Brian.

All I can say is

SIGH!
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 360
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Sunday, 16 April, 2017 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Group 31 for everything. While a 31 doesn't MAQ fit, I removed the RR OEM battery and fit an aftermarket plastic 31 tray. There are literally thousands of options for trays for that battery because they are used in boats.

CAN,...I'll stand up for CAN.

I personally think the computer situation is out of hand on cars. However, with the mandates for safety and emissions, and the business necessity for features to delight the customer, computers, and lots of them are part of modern car design.

Anticipating this, CAN was born. Kind of like good urban planning. Yeah, there are problems but considering what is made possible by a bus architecture it's kind of a no-brainer why everything is CAN. Although it is sort of inelegant electronically, it is a very well though out.

Good common protocols give us things like the internet, the power grid, ARINC 429, television and so on.

Do I like computers in cars other than bluetooth?...No.

If you are going to have computers in cars, do I think CAN is the only good approach?..Yes.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1404
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Sunday, 16 April, 2017 - 01:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Agree with you Ross
I love technology,
just get frustrated when it isn't done properly, or it is over done and over complicated.
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Graham Watson
Experienced User
Username: graham508

Post Number: 36
Registered: 3-2016
Posted on Sunday, 16 April, 2017 - 09:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

A modern car has 60+ embedded system electronic control units (ECUs) and about 100 million lines of code to support them. The CAN network works really well doing its job of transporting data. While the most prevalent there are other in-car networks such as MOST, FlexRay, etc. Some OEMs are starting to use Ethernet, however the CAN network still has plenty of useful life left in it. Like all diagnostic tools OBD diagnostic testers only relay information, it is up to the user what to do with the information. Heavy trucks are a bit of a different animal, being bespoke vehicles a common language (J1931) is needed to be able to communicate between all the various electronics from differing manufacturers. Makes my job fun, I work on mitigations to prevent malicious hacking into these vehicle systems.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1412
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Sunday, 16 April, 2017 - 11:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Interesting post Graham,
The old J1939 or twisted pair as they were called.
I shudder at the thought of how badly they can be made

The hacking of these is interesting mate, please tell us more.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2523
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 17 April, 2017 - 09:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick/Graham,

I suggest you should have this discussion by Private Message and not open discussion on this forum.

We never know who is lurking or whether a web crawler/search engine could pick up your discussion.

Even though I would be interested, the information you discuss could be used by others less trustworthy with malicious/evil intent.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1413
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Monday, 17 April, 2017 - 09:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Understood mate.

Thanks for pointing this out to David.
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Graham Watson
Experienced User
Username: graham508

Post Number: 38
Registered: 3-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 18 April, 2017 - 01:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi David,
You are correct. When we publish our reports (US Govt.) all data is sanitized so as to avoid exactly what you are describing.
Thanks
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1382
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 20 April, 2017 - 02:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

keyless entry systems can be easily hacked with blue tooth and correct software.

A way around this problem is to fit a hand brake or steering wheel crook lock. say I sarcastically.

My shadow has the minimum electronics and still on points ignition. The electronics aren't flight critical so the car will get you home if the amp for the water level fails.

I get to hear about all sorts of car electronic problems and no make is immune. My jeep ECU has failed to proceed on a few occasions from dirty plugs and damp. When correct the jeep fires up from cold in the first second idles at 900 rpm until 40c as smooth as nut then it drops back to 700rpm. Perfect. But boy when it goes wrong its a real pain.

Range Rovers are even worse because they need expensive sensors replacement. Freelanders are a nightmare.

modern Diesels can be your worst nightmare come true.

Computer controlled electric windows are pointless.

KISS. technology and quality are different things.
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 380
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Thursday, 20 April, 2017 - 07:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Robert,

Hear hear on modern diesels. My 81 Golf has a single wire to the fuel solenoid, an ignition wire, a battery cable, and water and oil sensor wires.

In a pinch, remove the pintle from the shut off solenoid and push start the car. No electronics needed at all.

2010 golf, well.. you need a few more wires.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1277
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 21 April, 2017 - 06:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

On a Nissan Leaf the lead acid battery supplies the power to the systems to operate them.
It is not unheard of for them to pack up in use away from home.
A flatbed is the only option unless you carry one of these


The power of the pack is amazing.
have used it to start a 3 litre diesel.

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