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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 345
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 09 March, 2005 - 12:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

To all but one!
After the SS2 was left in the garage over night there was a strong smell of petrol by the car.
thinking the worst i opened up the windows doors of the garage and checked the under and around the car for leaks,well under the o/s front sill to lower rear front wing there was the trace staining of fuel.
Opened the bonnent but no sign of any leaks so a quick switch on of the ign and the and a quick switch off.
The culprete was the flex pipe that runs from the o/s steel feed pipe to the carbs and of course what is just below,the dredded exhaust manifold.
A check is not good enough as the internal rubber cannot be seen under the steel wire covering.
Replace any over eight years in my opinon.
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Robert Wort
Grand Master
Username: robert_wort

Post Number: 130
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 09 March, 2005 - 04:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Valid point Patrick. I remember about 20 years ago a Silver Cloud caught fire in the engine compartment owing to a similar problem. Fortunately another Club Member happened to be nearby and had in his possession a fire extinguisher. Fire causes damage fairly quickly but at least he saved the car. Ever since then, I not only check the fuel lines regularly but also carry a fire extinguisher.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 600
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 09 March, 2005 - 04:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Don't you all have fire extinguishers in your cars ?. Heavens. My insurance company bought my first and gives (or at least gave) a yearly rebate.
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Martin Cutler
Prolific User
Username: martin

Post Number: 54
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 09 March, 2005 - 07:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just had the same thing happen to the MG Magnette. I replaced the fuel lines with the original type with braided steel covers about 10 years ago. The rubber perished under the steel. I won't use that stuff any more for fuel lines. I ground the crimped ends off, so I could re use the olive fitting, and replaced the lines. Now I can easily inspect them.

Carry a fire extinguisher in all my cars.

In my Austin 7 the main battery feed runs from the battery behind the passenger seat up between the seats and into the dash. (no starter). When the wire chaffed through, it caught fire between the seats, you've never seen 2 people get out of an Austin 7 so quickly!
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 347
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 09 March, 2005 - 07:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Martin you have triggered the brain when i was following an Austin Seven many years ago,it started to go slower and it then finaly stopped with some smoke comming out from underneath,it turned out that somehow a carpet had wound it self round the prop and started to catch fire the occupants again flew out the car at great speed.
Once it was delt with it was again on its way,we had a pump up type of fire extinguisher in those days.
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Gordon Norris
Experienced User
Username: crewes_missile

Post Number: 49
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 09 March, 2005 - 08:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

On the topic of braided fuel lines, whilst resistant to rubbing, I've had the same experience with perishing. I've heard it said that the braid, by retaining heat, actually accelerates deterioration in the underlying rubber, especially when in close proximity to exhaust manifolds. Modern braided synthetic and teflon lines seem pretty good, but are prone to splitting if the ends aren't well finished...a bit like a potato crisp bag..the plastic is damned tough, until it gets a split, then it tears like tissue along it's length.

I ALWAYS have 2 extinguishers..Murphy's law dictates that with only one, it won't work or will run out too soon!

GN.
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John Dare
Grand Master
Username: jgdare

Post Number: 228
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 09 March, 2005 - 08:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you Gordon. I believe that many members might be interested in having extinguishers in their cars (if not already present) but might I invite some input as to preferred secure LOCATIONS for the stowage/mounting thereof. Stowage in the trunk is not desirable, whilst many owners understandably don't like drilling holes (any!) in R-R/B's for purpose of bracket mounting etc. In any event, I urge all extinguisher owners to read/review thoroughly (in ADVANCE!) the operating instructions, for it is under extreme pressure such as fire, that many people are likely to fail in total panic. You don't want to be deciphering the text when the flames are consuming your car; or you!
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Bill Coburn
Grand Master
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 351
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 09 March, 2005 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Co-incidentally while doing the mandatory check of the fuel pumps on the Phantom I noticed the braided lines to and from the unit. Wishing to keep everything original I called for the Factory to supply originals. Nothing doing I was told use rubber fuel lines. Much spluttering on my part about non-originality and safety etc until I remembered there are two lines between the body and engine on the Spur (one in and one out on a recirculating system) and both are good old garden variety rubber fuel lines. So that is what I installed including the dinky little line that connects the chassis pipe to the engine. I think Martin and Gordon's discovery about perishing under the braid is very likely and the Factory came to the same conclusion. In fact I think I will start up a campaign to renew these lines lest we lose any more cars.
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John Dare
Grand Master
Username: jgdare

Post Number: 229
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 09 March, 2005 - 12:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I seem to recall that some years ago, Victorian authorities had discouraged (if not banned?) braided "Aeroquip" style, flexible type hyd. brake hoses for road registered cars on the grounds that any deterioration of the rubber would not be readily apparent. At that time braided hoses were "restricted" to competition/track vehicles, however I am unaware of the current position in that regard.
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Gordon Norris
Frequent User
Username: crewes_missile

Post Number: 51
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 09 March, 2005 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,
Correct re flexible brake hoses, but the rationale was that on a road car dust and dirt would get under the braid, and then with flexing over large mileages, would act as an abrasive, in simple terms sanding the hydraulic hose through. These concerns would not be as apparent on race cars. Many State authorities ban the retro-fitting of such hoses to road cars on this basis, but I not sure of the Australian Design Rule standing.

I am not entirely convinced either, in that several road-going exotics come from the factory with braided lines, (but maybe only for Europe?..maybe forced to change for ADR's?) and of course the aero industry uses them, but of course their servicing and replacement schedules are much stricter and more closely regulated.

I have also seen braided hydraulic lines that have a further clear plastic jacket over the braid to stop the ingress of dirt, (looks suspiciously like clear heatshrink tubing), but I don't know if they are regarded as "legal".

Of course it is a popular after-market modification to get vastly better pedal feel, irrespective of the law.

GN.
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John Dare
Grand Master
Username: jgdare

Post Number: 231
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 09 March, 2005 - 02:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you for that clarification Gordon. It is so long ago that I visited that question that I remained unclear. As per your final para. I have indeed fitted aftermarket braided brake hoses to some of my other cars and have not experienced, nor do I anticipate, any operational/service problems. On the subject of hoses, I can report that a very well known prestigous make of UK sports car (non Crewe!) was totally incinerated (in Australia) as a result of someone fitting an under bonnet PLASTIC fuel line to supply fuel to the induction system.
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Martin Cutler
Prolific User
Username: martin

Post Number: 55
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, 10 March, 2005 - 08:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Why not put the fire extinguisher in the boot? That is where it is placed in my Bentley, and my MG. In the Austin it is between the seats. In the Dodge it is under the back seat, and in my wifes modern Toyota it is in the boot. Why is putting it in the boot (or trunk, I thought only elephants had trunks?) undesirable?
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John Dare
Grand Master
Username: jgdare

Post Number: 233
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, 10 March, 2005 - 08:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you Martin. My only concern would be that in the event of a heavy rear impact the boot/trunk lock might be "locked" in the closed position. Even if it didn't, fuel tanks, or worse, (LPG tanks!) may have ignited, thereby denying immeadiate access to that area. I think I would rather have an extinguisher in my hands in that situation (even if its use was somewhat limited) in order to deploy at FIRST sign of fire
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 604
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 10 March, 2005 - 08:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mine is on a pair of elastic straps on the base of the passenger's seat. Ideal. What say you all to Halon, foam and so on ?
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 605
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 10 March, 2005 - 08:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

ps: John, why do you use inverted commas around the word locked ? Why is first in capitals ?
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John Dare
Grand Master
Username: jgdare

Post Number: 234
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, 10 March, 2005 - 08:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

That reminds me. Aren't some fire retardants capable of damaging (beyond reclamation) certain alloys, and aluminium, such as that as used in our V8 engines etc?
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andypinto
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 84.64.11.26
Posted on Friday, 11 March, 2005 - 06:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am about to go shopping for suitable fire extinguishers for my S3 and SSII. Would be grateful for advice regarding which type to go for.
many thanks
andy

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 412
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 11 March, 2005 - 02:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

In answer to John Dare's question, the old-fashioned soda/acid water extinguisher could be quite corrosive however the combustion products from the fire itself are more of a problem especially if they come into contact with water/water vapour. A lot of plastics contain Fluorine and Chlorine and when they burn; they generate considerable amounts of Hydrogen Chloride and Hydrogen Fluoride which then combine with the water vapour in the air to form Hydrochloric and Hydrofluoric acids which are highly corrosive. Certain synthetic materials also form cyanide when burnt which can cause fatalities from smoke inhalation.

All extinguisher manufacturers have a range of extinguishers specifically for automotive use and you need to select the one that best suits your needs and space for installation. I must admit my preference is to floor-mount the extinguisher just forward of the front passenger seat when in the full-forward position; easy to get to, highly visible yet not in the way.
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Robert Wort
Grand Master
Username: robert_wort

Post Number: 134
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, 11 March, 2005 - 10:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes David (re: positioning of extinguisher), Mine's in the boot at present but when my Spur comes back from the panel shop, I'll make a point of repositioning it as per your suggestion.
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Adrian Jump
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 213.249.162.132
Posted on Sunday, 13 March, 2005 - 12:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

UK ShadowII cars have none braided fuel lines. Whilst fitting carb overhaul kits to a friends Shadow, the rubber fuel pipe from the main metal delivery pipe to o/s carb split due to age and heat hardening. He asked me to chop the end off and refit it not wishing to replace it! I shall be fitting service kits to my Shadow shortly and will replace the fuel hose automatically. As an aside I have also bought new bottom cover plates (approx 7 each) for the HIF7 carbs as they tend to distort at the 'ears' where the set screws go through to secure them, resulting in slight weepage despite new seals.The heater hoses on the n/s chassis rail also suffer the same problem of heat ageing due to their close proximity to the exhaust manifold, hence Crewes recommendation to change them at set intervals "irrespective of visual appearance".
Just my penny's worth.
Adrian Jump U.K.

(Message approved by david_gore)