| Author | Message | ||
     Robert Wort Prolific User Username: robert_wort Post Number: 60 Registered: 12-2004 |
Bill, Are you aware of any self help groups such as yours that operate in Victoria on a regular (monthly) basis? If there are, Could you provide me with any contact details please? If there isn't. Perhaps fellow Victorians could contact me on rhwort@bigpond.com to see if we can start something. My knowledge isn't too great even though I was a mechanic in the '70's. It was on the ubiquitous Beetle and somewhat less complicated than my Spur. Therefore, it would be handy if at least one participant had some working knowledge but we can worry about that later. At least let's get something started. Naturally, I don't want to upset the club but I'm sure that we can accommodate all interested parties.  | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 315 Registered: 4-2003 |
Robert/ No I am not aware. I will put a note for you in the next Topics and see whether that has any response. The difficulty with self help groups is to decide how you will run them. A group will turn up with their cars which will range from people who would like you to look at the car and point out problems etc to others who come along and expect a free service. I have had the principal 'man' take one look at a car and then dive in to fix it to the exclusion of all others. Few could see what he was doing, got bored and finished up yapping until they went home. A very rare occurrence has been one who turned up, blithely help himself to your consumables without any offer of recompense and then to forget to take your tools out of the boot. But the last and the biggest embuggerance I have experienced is the accident hazard. A friendly helpful owner can suddenly turn very nasty if he injures himself while in your care. For this reason you need to check that your various insurances cover any claims for damages. This was the downfall of our local mob and one of the principal reasons for the Tee One Group forming. The resident antagonists who ironically never attended any of the self help meetings, mouthed barrels of doom about the consequences of an accident. This continued until the chief organiser offered taxidermy services in lieu of paying rent and we all decamped to a disused service station to do our thing. We had hoped that the Club's policy would follow us and I erroniously published this in Topics. This brought condemnation from the highest no doubt prompted by our former antagonists and I quickly withdrew the advice and apologised. As I now understand it and it undoubtedly varies from Branch to Branch, you will need to get the 'committee' to promulgate the event wherever it is and it should be covered by the overall public risk policy. In Canberra this is all too difficult and I have relied on the enormous policy we have covering activities on our house which fortunately has a fairly large area in which to operate. The sad thing about all this is that after all the lambasting I personally suffered there was not one person of any authority in the Club that made a personal effort to help sort out this problem. It was as if we wanted to have all owners given a medical or issued with comprehensive tool kits. All we wanted to do was provide a facility and venue where owners usually wide eyed with bewilderment could come and at the very least talk with similarly placed members in the hope that they might get some technical information and help with their cars. I still seem to think that that is what the Club should be about, not planning the next tootle down to the local park. Finally don't give up. The forces of darkness still hover around but with the above precautions can be kept at bay. We are in the minority. The majority of members take an interest in their cars that could not be described stronger than curiosity. Some of these have no concern for their vehicles other than not having them damaged and simply leave the car with an appropriate specialist for rectification when the thing plays up. Others seem to crave the company of other owners for reasons that elude me. And then there are us. There is room for all, in fact I have belonged to two clubs which were totally technical if I can use that descriptive. It was most unpleasant, the members literally trolled around to get what they wanted in the way of information or parts, could barely pass the time of day with you and cleared off the minute their needs were satisfied. I smartly got clear of those mobs! Judging by my experience with the Registers and the reception of 'Topics' I would guess that a third of the membership would be sympathetic to our interests. It is these people we need to encourage because in the long run it is they that will save the bulk of our cars from the wrecker. If you can get a group together and need information don't hesitate to ask me, if I haven't got it I'll find it. The best of luck to you and your mates. | ||
| Robert Wort Prolific User Username: robert_wort Post Number: 61 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thank you very much for the info Bill. WOW! There's a lot to consider isn't there? I certainly don't want to get on the wrong side of anyone. Ideally, It would be a self help and social gathering where we could exchange ideas, get things fixed and serviced. Preserve our cars and have a whale of a time doing it. Unfortunately, there will always be the selfish few and I'm sure we'll get them but hopefully a dedicated core will ensue and firm friendships will result.The insurance issue will obviously need to be brooched ( it's a sad reality these days isn't it that litigation is climbing to ridiculous heights where lawers are the only winners). This will not stop me however, and hopefully I will be contacted by those dedicated few to get things started. Thank you once again Bill. | ||
| John Dare Grand Master Username: jgdare Post Number: 104 Registered: 12-2004 |
I am sure Bill C will quite rightly correct me (in his usual diplomatic manner) if I am wrong, but I believe that one of the reasons for the "self-help" group being initially formed in the ACT, was due to the geographical location of that region. I suspect that many "R-R/B" owners so located, were inspired to establish the group, not simply to benefit from de facto "free" repairs/service etc., but due to the absence of READY access to specialist R-R repairers. Sydney too far away, Melbourne even worse and IT can be colder than Canberra!. I therefore doubt the wisdom or need for other DIY groups (due in part to reasons advanced by Bill ) given that owners can easily obtain wide ranging technical advice and support from his "Tee-One" group directly (per "Topics") or via THIS forum, BOTH of which already receive FREE technical advice/input from experienced "R-R/B" repairers on a regular basis. I rather enjoy changing my oil, spark plugs etc., and performing general "light service" procedures on a Sunday morning, doing so without the need for specialised tools/equipment (you have a HOIST?) and knowledge, but for the more detailed and complex work (eg. hyd.susp./brakes/electrics etc) I engage a qualified and recognized expert. If one can readily obtain reliable and professional, service at reasonable rates, why bother with some kind of "Week-end warrior" gathering where the cost of the beer and sausages (and liability insurance IF you can obtain it!) will probably negate any perceived monetary "savings" not to mention the "joy" of traipsing around for R-R parts on a given week-end. Personally, I would rather be having brunch at my favourite bistro in South Yarra; travelling to and from, in a professionally maintained motor vehicle of course! | ||
| Robert Wort Prolific User Username: robert_wort Post Number: 64 Registered: 12-2004 |
John, The other reasons for self help groups are; 1/ To get a better awareness of the workings of the vehicle and to be better informed of the problem should you decide to take it to a repairer. 2/ To ensure that habitual tinkerers are better informed as to what they are doing. 3/ Some members are not in a financial position to regularly pay a repairer for regular servicing and as we all know, these cars do require regular maintainace and self help groups are an effective way of saving our cars from the scrapyard. 4/ And finally (although I'm sure there are a myriad of other valid reasons), It's a great way to meet with other like-minded individuals over a cuppa and get the greatest enjoyment of ownership of our marque. It's not a matter of enforcing the issue on those that are quite happy to just drive their cars and pay someone else to look after it, nor is the reverse true, but to have another option open for those that wish to pursue this alternative. | ||
| Robert Wort Prolific User Username: robert_wort Post Number: 66 Registered: 12-2004 |
I might also add John that there will always be situations where it's best to employ the services of a proper repairer. There are many jobs that professionals such as Robert Chapman would prefer us to do ourselves to free he and others up to do more urgent and major jobs. It's always a good idea of course to get the occasional service done by a professional to ensure that all is well with the vehicle and as humans with failings that we are, to ensure that important items haven't been overlooked.  | ||
| John Dare Grand Master Username: jgdare Post Number: 105 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thank you Robert. Your objective is admirable but I dont believe it is realistically achievable, for although the average owner is no doubt qualified in their OWN particular area of expertise, they usually have at best, no more than a basic understanding of their car. At worst, they have neither the interest and/or capacity to venture into (and ABSORB!) what I might loosely call the complex, if not "no-go" (for amatuers) areas; the hydraulics/susp.brakes of Shadow/Spirits probably being the most visible examples. Dare I suggest (with NO disrespect intended) that if you were shown how to diassemble and overhaul a rear height control valve (as an example) it is unlikely that you would necessarily remember each and every step by the time that you needed (if ever) to personally undertake such a repair on your own account, despite your personal background as a motor mechanic. Furthermore, IF you needed parts for such a valve, would you be routinely aware of NON R-R parts which can be reliably and safely fitted in lieu of some of the HORRENDOUSLY priced originals?. I can think of many other repairs (Spring/Shock absorber removal) where the AVERAGE DIYer would have difficulty in recalling the procedure months (if not years) after having it demonstrated at a "self-help" group, despite convivial atmospheres with a cuppa or whatever takes your fancy. This is where professional "day-to-day" EXPERIENCE counts and perhaps explains why professionals with MASSIVE overheads (premises/equipment/staff) NEED to charge an average (and EXTRAORDINARLY) reasonably $75/85 per hour. Consider San Diego Ca. at US$125 per hour!. Trust me, WE get it EASY here!. I believe the ACT is different from a PRACTICAL perspective, for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post, thereby perhaps explaining (in part) the success of that group. I have seen DIYers even fail to install spark plugs correctly, omitting to apply "anti-sieze" compounds (siezure or stripping) and/or overtightening and thats assuming they have bought the correct heat range plug (NOT necessarily that shown in the 30 yo handbook!) gapped it correctly and then not cross "wired" the leads. As a lawyer friend often observes(after a post mortem on some "disaster")... "Horses for Courses". Simplistic maybe, but you would also know (from your own past exp. as a mechanic) that to perform any SERIOUS work of any kind (even of an instructional/demonstrational nature) one needs ready access to a hoist (Liability Looms Largely!)and suitable premises ("Liability" again?) plus a raft of specialized tools (some being hand and purpose made) and equipment with convenient access to stocked, ready NOW, parts, some genuine or for those on a budget, non genuine. One can absorb all of the THEORY, but unless you are applying that theory (successfully) AND on a REGULAR basis (note how Airline pilots must MAINTAIN their cockpit "stick" hours) auto. DIYers are likely to be doomed in the overall context of maintaining, let alone repairing, their cars in a general sense. Most would agree that "self-help" meets are probably not necessary for the most basic of procedures that would typically be explained in the handbook. Remember also that to rectify a fault you must first DIAGNOSE the probable cause/s and once again, daily "hands-on" EXPERIENCE is LIKELY to identify the cause expediently, thereby leading to reduced time/job sheet hours etc. If anyone denies this or believes it can be circumvented by week-end meets, however well intentioned, may I say (with apologies to Michael Caton; "The Castle") "tell him he's dreamin'!! | ||
| Robert Wort Prolific User Username: robert_wort Post Number: 67 Registered: 12-2004 |
John, there is no doubt that in many respects in what you are saying is true. But putting things into perspective, one will never know anything until one learns how to do it. I stated earlier that I was a motor mechanic and although it was many years ago and on much simpler cars, I have the basics and a good memory as far as disassembly and reassembly. The fact is, most people who purchase cars such as ours are not fools. It is the very reason why they chose such a car in the first place. I fully understand where you are coming from but it is intrinsic to some of us to know how the thing works and how to keep it working properly. There are of course (you mentioned the suspensions) some areas that, at first, will be beyond our capabilities and like the journey of life itself, will continue to be a learning curve. Fortune favours the brave at heart John. Naturally, we will need some guidance and naturally some patience as well. But rather than detract from the goal,even if you do not wish to partake, your support would be welcome as well as any constructive suggestions. I'm sure Bill Coburn would argue the fact that many 'amateurs' have done some exceptional things. Let's give some credit where it's due John. One need only see Bill's newsletters to see that. | ||
| thomas Unregistered guest Posted From: 193.72.69.217 |
Pardon me for butting in but I am surprised that anyone would discourage "self help" groups. As a Jaguar owner in England now considering the purchase of an old Silver Shadow I am looking forward to finding such sessions pre-purchase. Does not Canbera your capital have a few Rolls Royce agents? I consider self help and trusted agents are complimentry. These are old vehicles now and with the systems and foibles I have read I would be happy to know as much as possible about my car if I do buy one. To blindly give it to a repairer and say "fix it" is dangerous enough with a Jag let alone a Rolls Royce. Our Jag technical sessions have been great I must say. Even for those who will never do any work it is fascinating. People come along and are surprised to discover impending failures like tappet guides and cam chains and it must be the same in your world too. Then you are free to decide commercial or DIY safely before disaster strikes. Our members often take on too much and a repairer will not touch them, so the club gents swing in to bail you out with literature and wag a finger at you. In any case I want to know what work is involved to reflect costs I am in for before handing a vehicle over for work. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 526 Registered: 4-2003 |
John, Can you name a no-go area on a Silver Shadow ? I can't think of one easily. Sure, you would be unlikely to regrind your own crankshaft, but nor do most repairers. Many self-helpers are equally capable of delivering a crankshaft to a regrinder as is a decent repairer. Likewise, if you repair an airconditioner you may break the law by letting out CFC, so better be informed and let any refrigerant circuit work be farmed out to an authorised refrigerant technician, as do many garages too. The extent of reasonable DIY is largely a matter of time, information available, knowledge and bravado in my opinion. A self help group can only make it more realisable. The difference between the traditional mechanics and many of today's newly trained mechanics is that todays are not really trained as mechanics as we know it, rather box changers or software downloaders. There’s nothing wrong with either. Imagine, my dad's new Citroen was playing up: windscreen wipers, headlamps, windows, ESP and gearbox. How was it repaired ? The garage downloaded new software over the internet, reprogrammed the main onboard computer, and presto. Not a spanner in sight. Unlike modern cars, a Silver Shadow is a large collection of very simple tangible devices, and lends itself to DIY in almost every area. If we took modern plug-and-play mechanics to Silver Shadows they would be rapidly scrapped as unviable costwise. With respect, please do not lable too many people as theorists when you don't know them. DIY self-helpers are almost by definition practicalists and not theorists. Most of us simply don't enjoy your level of financial means, so we can choose between a VW Golf and a Crewe beauty only if we indulge in an extensive level of work done by ourselves. It is also risky writing people off qualification- and experience-wise when we have no idea which they really have. As for qualifications: if I were to tell someone it is forbidden to send e-mails because he was not a graduate in computer science, or someone else not to prepare an Excel spreadsheet because she were neither a computer science nor mathematics graduate, it would bring the house down, so let's leave qualifications to HR departments. Robert W. is clearly a qualified mechanic. Let’s share our Crewe experiences with him, and he may well show us all a thing or two in turn through a Victorian self-help programme. RT. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 375 Registered: 4-2003 |
I wish to be self-indulgent and post the following information from an article I wrote for the Club Federal Magazine "Praeclarum" and published in February 2003 on the NSW Branch Self-Help Group initiative:- "The purpose of these sessions is to provide members with the opportunity to learn more about the care, maintenance and construction of their vehicles regardless of whether they intend doing this work themselves or entrusting it to a professional. The sessions are conducted on the basis that any work being undertaken is at the sole discretion and responsibility of the owner after they seek comments from those in attendance. We are not experts or appropriately qualified technicians and owners needing specialist assistance are referred to the relevant professional service organisations that are capable of being responsible for the work required. Whilst our more experienced members are prepared to undertake more complex work, the majority of owners seek information on preventative maintenance and system checks that can be undertaken at home without requiring specialist tools or experience together with details of the servicing schedules that apply to their vehicle. The time available at each session specifically precludes time-consuming major repairs. A significant benefit from the sessions held to date has been a greater understanding and acceptance by owners of the importance of regular servicing [and driving] to keep their vehicles in the best possible condition and minimise long-term operating costs. Whilst there appeared to be some initial apprehension amongst some professional service providers about possible loss of business as a consequence of the Self-Help sessions, their subsequent experience appears to have been the reverse as owners become more understanding of the service costs and reasons for the various tasks involved and other work has eventuated as a result of repairs being advised after inspection of the vehicle at the Self-Help sessions. We now have professionals offering the use of their premises for our sessions and being actively involved in discussing servicing/repair techniques and skills on a voluntary basis....... The philosophy behind this new activity for the Club is based on my perceived need to promote the availability of technical information and assistance for owners of Rolls-Royce and Bentley vehicles. The national Registries for the various post WW2 R-R/Bentley models, especially the Shadow and Silver Dawn Registers, are proving to be extremely popular with owners who are actively maintaining their vehicles and who are happy to objectively discuss their vehicles and their experiences with prospective/new owners. This practice is important to ensure informed purchase decisions are made and that a new owner has access to advice and help should problems subsequently arise with their vehicle - this ensures the new owner remains confident about their purchase rather than becoming disillusioned, selling the car and then spending the rest of their life telling everyone about the "rotten R-R/Bentley" they once owned. I am particularly concerned with the number of “horror stories" [particularly about Shadows] that repeatedly appear in the various R-R/Bentley web forums and other motoring publications. The practice of certain R-R/Bentley owners who are not willing to talk factually and objectively about the merits and difficulties of their vehicles or who spout "tales of woe" to denigrate models other than their own is particularly repugnant to me. Whilst I am responsible for a Shadow derivative vehicle, I am not biased against other R-R/Bentley models and appreciate them for what they represent and the way in which they satisfy the individual preferences of their owners. I advise owners denigrating/being dismissive about models other than their own to be aware that considerations involving which model best suits the future owner’s driving style, personal needs and preferences will ultimately determine the purchase rather than advice that they are certain to have problems with a particular model. One lesson in life that I have experienced many times and passed on to those prepared to listen is that “people never remember they had a problem; they just remember how well it was fixed”. We have a responsibility to ensure that owners who are having problems and seeking help receive that help regardless of whether they are Club members or not to protect the image and reputation of the brand and to ensure potential future owners only hear “good news” about owning a R-R/Bentley vehicle regardless of model especially the fact that help and advice is readily available when needed. This helps maintain the desirability [and consequently resale value] of our vehicles as well as preserving the special “mystique” that our vehicles possess in the eyes of the general public. I always include an invitation to join the Club whenever I reply to a request for help from a new owner/non-member. I am not a trained mechanic but have self-taught repair and maintenance abilities developed over time. It is surprising what you can do on Silver Shadow + derivative vehicles with a little commonsense, workshop manuals and help from other owners who work on their vehicles. I have no hesitation in doing work that I believe is within my capabilities [or if I get in too deep; I can call on the experts to help out when needed and take over when things are back to the point where I can complete the job with my equipment and ability]. An interesting benefit from the Self-Help sessions has been that inactive Club members have started to become more involved in Club activities to the point where they are taking on responsibility for organising activities and their rekindled enthusiasm has become contagious within the Club proper much to the delight of our long-standing older members. Of more relevance is the fact that many of these members are younger by a decade or more than the existing active members [our youngest owner is in his late 20’s]. This involvement will ensure the future of our Club by enlarging the number of active members, by providing future replacements for existing office-bearers, by supporting the Club activities relevant to them and by encouraging non-members to join the Club to enjoy the benefits available from membership." The case for the defence rests!! | ||
| John Dare Grand Master Username: jgdare Post Number: 106 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thank you Richard. I did not intend ANY disrespect whatsoever to R-R experienced DIY exponents or practitioners nor qualified general automotive engineers/ mechanics such as yourself or Robert W. I was merely suggesting that DESPITE ones qualifications, mechanical capacity or ability, it is UNLIKELY that anyone will accurately recall "step-by-step" procedures in relation to a relatively complex (not necessarily to experienced people such as yourself/Robert W) or safety concern items such as spring/shock absorber replacement or overhaul of a height control valve, months if not years AFTER one has "learned" all about it at a well meaning self-help group session. I know of many QUALIFIED mechanics who, not having PRACTICAL R-R EXPERIENCE, had incorrectly "replumbed" such valves resulting in their immeadiate disintegration upon start up and thats assuming they had "rebuilt" it correctly in the first instance. I did not malign or criticize "theorists", but simply suggested that any AMOUNT of THEORY is useless UNLESS it is being regularly applied in practice, the lack of the latter too often resulting in the outcomes which I have witnessed. That may explain why "Ferrari" techs. dont want to work on "Porsches" (and vice versa) since even the "pros" recognize the potential minefield that awaits them (quirks/foibles etc) and thats disregarding the issue of specialised/dedicated tools required for various service/repair procedures. Apart from the AVERAGE owners ability and/or capacity to understand for example, the Shadow/Spirit Hyd. systems (GENERALLY accepted as "no-go" areas) OR any LESS complex part or system of their car, the issue of FACILITIES such as premises, with some specialized tools (and "contingency" spares?) remains focal. Bill C has, as I understand it, such facilities which were perhaps born of necessity, possibly for the reasons I have previously mentioned, i.e ACT owners virtually having no OPTION but to form a local self help group and for that I commend them. Notwithstanding their efforts and undeniable progress, any amount of self help is available via this and related forums, together of course with the periodic (monthly) R-R club meeetings, where at the conclusion of general business, owners have an opportunity to discuss any technical concerns/issues with fellow members who may be of sympathetic ear. Furthermore, there are the club "Tech. Section" days such as the one I can recall Robert C kindly hosting at his more than suitable premises for the Mk6/R-Type cars. If there is a concentrated FOCUS upon ONE model(ideally confined to ONE or two AREAS therein) of R-R/B upon a SPECIFIC day, then perhaps owners will absorb and recall (months/years later?) that which they "learned" on that ever distant day. If however, a gaggle of ASSORTED R-R/Bs turn up in Joe Schmoes suburban driveway on a sunny Sunday, it will probably result in a circle of owners standing around, coffee/beer in hand, peering into someones engine bay unable to produce the answer because no one knows the question. I saw this happen with a particular marque of German car some years ago where a "self help" group (it faded away) essentially attracted those who thought they could "save" money by eliciting "free" info. from one or two attending official "dealer" mechanics who also owned such cars (albeit older models) and then, those who seemed intent on getting away from their wives or girlfriends for a few hours. It was basically just a good old Aussie "Blokey" thing, enjoying as I did, the rather up-market "Becks" beer which was so often provided. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 254 Registered: 9-2004 |
Crums my head is spinning with that lot. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 316 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well how very rewarding. I have never seen this topic debated before intelligently. My only regret is that not enough people read these lines. There are two aspects in these arguments that stir my glands and I will exaggerate in describing them to make my point and these are the reverential awe a lot of owners have of the technical complexity of a Rolls-Royce and the almost totemic regard for the professional mechanic. Richard Treacy like myself is not a professional mechanic but he is a very highly qualified and experienced engineer. In basic terms however he is probably no more qualified to overhaul the rear levelling valves on a Shadow than I am, but we do and have done so on many occasions. I am conceited enough to think that I am a damn side more qualified to do the job that any garage in Canberra for instance. And if I wish to use a Sydney facility, I have a drive of some 300K assuming I can blank off leaking hydrulics, a return bus trip and a repeat of this procedure when the job is finished. Co-incidentally, an owner in Canberra some time ago followed this procedure exactly to have his levelling valves overhauled making the trip to Sydney equipped with bottles of RR363 to top up the emptying reservoir. He paid a little over $A100 an hour for the work and let me assure you John D that rates in Sydney are now some 50% higher than that these days. Back to Canberra comes our owner and visited me when I first met him, with guess what, one of the valves was leaking again and the other was showing definite signs of incontinence. Knowing that the job was done by a professional man it seemed incomprehensible so I called our mutual friend in Bayswater John and he told me of his experience in corroded seal surfaces on the actuating shafts. He further told me of his manufacture of replacement shafts which you mentioned. That information I have passed onto anyone who wanted to hear it and published the detail in 'Topics'. Now I am not suggesting that mechanics should be infallible, what I do look for in these people is interest. And what they in turn look for is an appreciation for what they are doing. Get that combination and you are onto a winner. Except that as Richard says one has to be able to pay for it. So by all means John share your wealth and good company at the local bistro but please don't inhibit those who would get in, get under and get dirty trying to comprehend their machine. One of my principal perversions is performing a task on one of these cars, with my own hands, and finishing knowing that there is a job well done, I have tended to the car's intricacies and met its demands. This satisfaction is so great that I once pulled the thing to pieces and did it again - clearly I have a problem. As Richard has highlighted, the modern day mechanic, in general, many of whom were not even born when these cars were made, is simply not interested in the vehicles. They are invariably filthy, inaccessable and irritatingly complex. That they should regard the underlying mechanical excellence with sufficient awe to put up with these inconveniences is optimism in the extreme. The dividend from this is a car that is poorly repaired, an unhappy owner, a disposed car and finally the wrecker. Finally John you refer to absorbing knowledge and recalling it to carry out a task. Herein lies one of life's greater mysteries. As you know I wax on in 'Topics' about many of the more mundane jobs owners can do on their cars, should they so choose. For years I have come across mechanics and amateur owners alike who complain about a problem with their car. I then often have had the opportunity to point out that the problem and its solution had been addressed in a readily available journal. 'Yes, I saw that' says the owner/mechanic, 'But I am not sure that that applies'. What I have then found is that invariably this person is either unwilling or unable to comprehend the written word and apply it. This is not exclusive to Rolls-Royce owners, I suspect we all suffer from it to some extent 'Read the instructions as a last report' is almost a mantra today! But the Factory manuals are as good as any that I have read. Their expression is meticulous almost pedantic and if followed any reasonably intelligent person should not go astray. Only this week I had to re-set all the controls on the legendry Phantom's gearbox which following professional adjustment had the quaint feature of slipping into top gear at 4 mph! I got all my old manuals out since nothing as far as I am aware has been published on this application and by dint of interpretation and the application of a little common sense have succeeded in getting the dear old 'jerkomatic' box to change with unnerving facility!!! But try getting that done at many auto transmission places. Why would they waste time on the thing? They can sort out 5 Toyota boxes in the same time and make much more money as a result. I will stop as I am starting to pant - over to you lot!!! And thanks! | ||
| John Dare Grand Master Username: jgdare Post Number: 109 Registered: 12-2004 |
Crums or even Crumbs Bill, now MY head is spinning! I need a visit to the bistro for lunch and a good red! Seriously..keep up your great "hands-on" work (incl."Topics" etc) for which you have rightly earned respect and admiration. "Never have so many" etc. etc. | ||
| John Dare Grand Master Username: jgdare Post Number: 110 Registered: 12-2004 |
Before darting out I thought I should review this thread and I am now concerned that I may have innocently created an impression which was not intended. Members or participants of the well known and respected self-help group in the ACT have the distinct and undeniable advantage of having an "on-site" R-R experienced "overseer" in the form of Bill C. His personal attendance (or reasonably ready accessibility/availibility) surely provides inspiration with confidence and perhaps more importantly, a form of insurance in the event that a "problem" arises, noting as I have that the established R-R/B specialists are hundreds of kms away;Syd/Melb etc. I did not intend to decry the CONCEPT of "self-help" groups but would, in the case of Melbourne, be concerned as to who would be not only capable, but ALSO reasonably regarded as "obliged" (in some way) to regularly perform what would effectively be a "gratis" technical advisory and supervisory role/function of the kind routinely (and to some extent, "FREELY") available to ACT owners etc. I will take this opportunity to recall a recent experience whereby an owner sought to demonstrate his expertise/"save" money, only to find that he needed a special "factory" type tool which I duly loaned as a gesture. QUESTION; Should that be the exception or the "rule", or put another way are you a REAL (100%) DIYer or merely a "part-time/ bit-each-way" operator? | ||
| Robert Wort Prolific User Username: robert_wort Post Number: 69 Registered: 12-2004 |
To all participants and welcome to the forum Thomas. I hope you register so we can hear more from you. Wow!  ,I certainly started something here didn't I? I'm really pleased with the result though. I certainly agree with David Gore about not denegrating other models. I've been a Rolls-Royce lover ever since the age of five and they are all beautiful to me. I won't go into a homily as I think most of the points (if not all) have been validated in the above threads. I am very encouraged to read that most points are in favour and we need the John Dare's of this world to put things into perspective. I reiterate though, that if anyone would like to pioneer this area in Victoria, I would love to hear from them. After all a self help group of one wouldn't exactly be captivating, would it? | ||
| John Dare Grand Master Username: jgdare Post Number: 113 Registered: 12-2004 |
This afternoon I had to go out in 35c heat for no other reason but to meet a medical appointment for a persistent infection in my left (telephone) ear, probably caused by the unrelenting "inbound" it has received over the years from a variety of assorted "complainants". Despite mean spirited rumours to the contrary, I can confirm that this is the only area of my person which requires medical attention. The treatment has been standard fare with anti-biotic drops ("Locacorten") and a periodic syringe "wash out" every month or so, at which time Ive wasted 30 mins. during each visit browsing (if I was lucky) through an old "National Geographic" but more likely via a feverishly thumbed copy of the encyclopaedic "Womans Day". As if that wasnt enough punishment, I then had to pay $65 for the ear wash, and only ONE ear at that mind you!. Recalling the topical currency of this "self-help" thread and sensing that the PRINCIPLE was perhaps not dissimilar to flushing out my Shadow Hyd. resevoir, or sump (pressure via oil level sender location point) or perhaps even as simple as a light pressure external cleanse of my engine, I casually asked my GP (MD) if perhaps I (myself)could routinely syringe my ear (at home) per a similar device (Like old Aunt Mauds "plunger" type cake "icer") cleaning same between use of course. I can report that, judging by his reaction, this innovative idea did NOT "wash" with my normally affable GP, whereupon he vigorously expressed his concern about the sterility of the appliance and the prospect that I might enter it too far into the ear bowl with the prospect of damaging the ear drum etc. He might have even been interested in the debris (if any) as recovered in the wash process, but as I had STRESSED my intention to observe ABSOLUTE hygiene, take EXTREME care with depth of protrusion AND deliver (by courier/post) the filtered debris to him, I suspect his PRINCIPAL concern was that right HERE before his eyes (and ears) was an aspiring "DIYer"!!. Strange is it not that we somehow expect our professional auto. mechanics/engineers to freely dispense THEIR acquired knowledge and/or "assist" owners (directly or otherwise) on technical issues relating to their cars, which like ones ears (which we also own!) could also have HEALTH implications, if for instance, you happened to MISunderstand the "overhaul" procedures (as advised) of your hydraulic system or incorrectly attempted to remove a front spring, again due to a "misunderstanding" and/or lack of correct tool/s etc. Such a latter circumstance almost resulted in the decapitation of a general mechanic working in a suburb of Melbourne in recent times. They found the spring, with the top spring plate remaining at large but at least he still has his head, the innards of which I expect have been suitably enlightened by the experience. | ||
| Robert Wort Prolific User Username: robert_wort Post Number: 70 Registered: 12-2004 |
Glad to hear that you are not about to embark on self help medicals John. But let's get realistic here shall we? We are talking about motorcars -not human beings;and as much as I fantasise about the Rolls-Royce being close to a living being,I'm not really crazy enough to actually believe it. As to the mechanic nearly losing his head; well I think he probably lost it even before he attempted work on his suspension. Anyone with a modicum of commonsense would always apply the safety first rule before even attempting such a job. We know that accidents can and do happen, but John, seriously, Life is a terminal disease and we are dying from the moment we are born. You could just as surely die in your South Yarra Bistro from eating bad oysters. Statistics tell us that the safest form of travel is by air, yet people still die in aircraft. Boxing day of late with that terrible tragedy will remind us all of our fragility on this planet.But what should we do? Closet ourselves in cotton wool? We could even suffocate in that. What I'm trying to say John is this. You can't just Kybosh an activity because of remote possibilities. It happens certainly. But the percentages are so small as to become negligible. Let's not split hairs on miniscule possibilities.As a postscript John, Iv'e just realised that you are a fraud! You preach against self help, yet you have just done this in your thread regarding the R Type Bentley fuel pump. AHA! GOTCHA | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 257 Registered: 9-2004 |
And i second that completly. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 317 Registered: 4-2003 |
Having just been woken at 2.00AM by Mr Chubb because of a confusion over alarm systems, I am in a dangerous mood which I am calming with lots of hot tea! I am wondering John if you are not doing a little turf protecting for the few 'professionals' we do have? I have 'confronted' some of them on this very proposal and it is quite obvious they all have so much to do that the odd customer resorting to his own devices is an inadvertent blessing. The other dividend not mentioned so far , is that people who do attend self help groups usually absorb some knowledge and when they get to the repairer they can hopefully give a somewhat more lucid account of the problem. One other abberation here and that is the owner would be fixer who takes up the working time of the professional with total disregard for that man's need to earn a living. Try doing the same thing to a lawyer or a doctor! That strange defaulting forum run from Holland often gets requests such as my car stopped the other day and hasn't gone since - what should I do???? And I compare this with you going to your doctor and saying that you are in some discomfort and let him work out the problem. Another example, twice I have had phone calls from 'Topics' recipients in some outback clime to say there is a Hell of a noise coming from the front of the engine. In both cases they called the NRMA and in both cases they were diagnosed with failed water pumps. Both I am proud to say cavilled at this advice and rang me pointing out that there was no coolant loss for starters. But both (not the NRMA man) finally thought to shake Hell out of the fan which appeared loose on its spindle. Of course the problem was the viscous drive unit which had failed. 'Take the whole fan off' was my advice and watch the temperature gauge etc etc. They were both Shadow II's and both got back to Sydney without difficulty or damage. In short, I think self help groups are educational and good insurance. Our little efforts up here always have pep talks on safety and coil springs and hot oil are my two favourite black bears. In fact while I have heard of the 'spring remover' man I think that our people have a bit more sense. The most ambitious job I have seen in our sessions was changing the rear springs on a Shadow - little hazard there other than ensuring that the jacking and stands are secure. But accidents will happen. I was startled to hear that one of our group a highly qualified engineer managed to have his car fall off the jack as he had not thought through which wheels were locked and which weren't. I believe he is now a very chastened but knowlegeable owner on the art of jacking! And finally (I am on my third mug of tea) the sensitivity I have to your approach stems from experience with a cabal of local owners (and some non owners who seem to know so much about these matters) who regard anybody who attempts to fix their car with disdain and imply that to 'tinker' (they actually used that word) with the car was equivalent to dismantling a Patek Phillipe full hunter which as you know is really unthinkable as no horologist would do more than wipe the crystal before depatching it to its makers in Switzerland. These people are not the least helpful and worry the Hell out of potential and new owners. And a final anecdote, I asked one of them during a run we had some years ago through the mountains, whether he was a member of the NRMA. His reply was he was not and saw no reason why he should be. And there on the ground under his car was our resident Tee Wunner working on the starter for the third time while we all stood around waiting to go. Now I need a brandy! Good night to you!!! | ||
| thomas Unregistered guest Posted From: 193.72.69.217 |
Im learning how to register on your site. The volume of information is stagering. Wow. You guys seem to be having a brawl or two now that I have searched over a few names. May I meekly say that a little knowledge is dangerous? Surely self help teams can broaden your knowledge to be less dangerous even if you leave the jobs to others. On my Jag I do as much as I can but use specialists (eg a transmission shop not a Jag specialist) to do really dificult work. That means I need to first know basically whats wrong and limit work done which I dont want. That way I contain costs. If I buy a silver shadow I hope to do the same but am geting nervous now reading some articles on your board and others like BDC and a holland one. I compare self help as you call it to a stint in Frankfurt. To go to a doctor in germany they self diagnose and choose a specialist as GPs hardly exist. In the UK that is forbidden and we need a GPs referal. It seems that many owners on a budget get by fine with help. I priced a secondhand engine as a yard stick in London at £3500 all in and a new one for maybe £8000. Thats more than the car is worth so for me its do it myself or stay away. That low sale price is aparently hiding enormous risks. Confused. I am joining the local RREC straight away. | ||
| Robert Wort Prolific User Username: robert_wort Post Number: 72 Registered: 12-2004 |
Wise move Thomas (Joining the R-REC). Don't let these threads scare you out of purchasing a Rolls-Royce, There are worst-case scenarios for every make of car as I'm sure you are aware with your Jaguar. They are fine cars too but we also hear horror stories about them too if you get my drift. It all comes down to this; as any car gets older, we have to realize that none of them were created magically by Gandalf the Grey. They are all made of essentially the same materials and they all eventually start to wear. This is where the likes of you and I come in. We can create our own 'magic' by using the famous incantation 'Maintainance.' We of this forum and all car clubs know our duty in keeping these and other precious marques from the auto graveyard. So don't be put off by what you read. Hang in there and you will be well rewarded in the long run. Our friend John Dare usually takes the antagonist approach and that's fine too. It puts things into perspective and I must admit, I enjoy reading his mischief making as it adds a bit of colour to the forum. | ||
| John Dare Grand Master Username: jgdare Post Number: 114 Registered: 12-2004 |
"Crumbs" (I think it is) now my head is REALLY spinning. But do allow me to respond to the assorted offerings, voluminous and exciting as they are. I have stated that I enjoy performing Sunday morn. oil changes,changing spark plugs and undertaking LIGHT maintenence/repair work which I believe (know) is within my capabilities and the boundaries of safety. I had stored my friends R-type for so long (at a remote holiday home) it had almost become a "sister" car to my own R-type and due to extreme difficulty to start (fuel delivery being suspected) I had the option of "flat-topping" (trailering) to my nearest specialist (over 100kms away; then a taxi home) calling the local seaside mechanic (not really an option) or trying to resolve it myself, since I was in effect, the de-facto "owner", finding myself in a similar type (albeit not to the same degree) of situation to that once confronting ACT owners. Due to their location they needed (and formed) via Bill C, local representation, rather than be captive to a periodic trek to Sydney or Melbourne for each and every problem. I respectfully submit that replacing my friends fuel pump is hardly representative of ANY form of "self-help" GROUP since that was only the second "repair" in 5 years, for which I note I have PERSONALLY attracted per this forum, the unequivocal title of FRAUD. I suggest (FINAL warning) that ALL contributors be VERY careful with the use and PUBLICATION of that word. Moving on. I have found from past experience that self-"help" is often code for "self-SERVE", a point to which Bill C previously alluded, recalling those opportunists who saunter up all nice and friendly, simply to wangle a free service, after which they disappear;until next time. I have heard of commercial operators who approach professional mechanics seeking their "moonlighting" services on a cash basis, in order to gain some miniscule "advantage" and/or "work-an-angle" of sorts. The "obliging" and sometimes naive employees havent deduced (Duh?) that APART from being "used" (made a "convenience" of) their nocturnal activities are UNDERMINING their OWN daily full time employment, whilst those who surreptitiously "employ" them simply dont care since they "get" what THEY want. I now say for the last time, that I have absolute respect and admiration for Bill C, understanding the NEED for a self-HELP (as opposed to "SERVE")group in the ACT region, but remain cynical of the PRACTICAL need (including an underlying concern in respect of risk/liability etc.) for any such "urban driveway" groups within the major capital cities. In such cities/areas there ARE accessible, competent, experienced specialists in readiness (at all kinds of "hours") to professionally serve AND perhaps more IMPORTANTLY, at reasonable hourly rates. Despite this "Utopian" situation (particularly in respect of hourly rates) there will ALWAYS be those who, often under the dubious guise of "enthusiast", seek to get "MORE". Seek to "SAVE". Seek to show how "they" can go around the perceived "system" to record some kind of "win". No doubt this all makes for great conversation at the dinner party and also keeps wifey happy since she doesnt see SO many dollars still pouring outbound; "THAT (or those) car/s AGAIN??". I know of a major U.S supplier of R-R parts, who, in response to parts price "whingers" says, "If you cant afford the (used!) parts, then dont have the car", suspecting that he might have inadvertantly omitted the word "service". Do some of your own work if you want to (according to your capability etc) and absorb the useful information and learned assistance provided by "Tee-One" together with THIS (and related) forum/s, BUT be a 100% DIYer!. DONT rely on or expect that professionals will (or "should") be on hand to bail-you-out eg; "Need ya' help Mate" ie advice and/or special "factory" tools (of which I have many) WHEN the going gets "tough". I didnt, which is why it took me 6 hours to remove the R-type pump, since I dont travel under two flags. And as I quietly proceed to my luncheon I will remain mindful that I never have. | ||
| Robert Wort Prolific User Username: robert_wort Post Number: 74 Registered: 12-2004 |
First and foremost John, My term of FRAUD was meant in the jocular term and not meant in any way as derogatory as it is not ( and never is) my wont to denegrate anyone.I thought you would have picked that up in the way that I wrote it (Perhaps I should have included a clipart smile next to it). Moving on though. It seems to me that there is a jousting tournament going on just for the sheer sake of jousting. I have occassions to agree with some of your opinions and there are those times when I don't. That's the beauty of this forum. It is both informative and can be fun. However, as a gentleman (and I think I can correctly assume that you are a gentleman). I think we should agree to disagree and let others (pro or con), put their opinions forward on this matter. This forum is about, and should always be about the cars and not personalities. On that I am sure we can both agree. | ||
| John Dare Grand Master Username: jgdare Post Number: 130 Registered: 12-2004 |
In the event that a kind of self help group is established, I draw potential DIYers to the amatuerish practice of "marking" things with a centre punch. Such "blacksmithing" identifying "techniques" should to be confined to derelict machinery of the kind you might have clambered over at Unca' Cecils farm in days of yore. As recently noted by R.T, the removal of stress riser points ( by linishing etc) is often of importance, however the CREATION of stress risers with a centre punch is an abomination, recalling, as I sadly have, the number of parts (such as connecting rods) duly "numbered" by some genius in possession of a centre punch. | ||
| Robert Wort Prolific User Username: robert_wort Post Number: 80 Registered: 12-2004 |
With that, I must agree John. There are many other ways in which to memorise parts. I have always used butcher's paper to lay parts on (after washing them of course), in the order that I dismantled them, espescially if I am unfamiliar the the make and model of vehicle that I'm working on. It's a habit that was thrust upon me from my early apprenticeship days in the late '60s and early '70's. This is one old habit that will never die. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 540 Registered: 4-2003 |
Funny you mention that. When I first took the (forged chrome-molebdenum) conrods out of my now R-Type in around 1971, they each had tiny notches at the edge right where conrods fail if they must: one notch for rod no. 1, two for no 2 and so on. The car had always been serviced and repaired by the official distributors, first in Melbourne and later in Sydney, since new until then. After an alarmist warning from the machine shop when boring new small end bushes, I dressed the notches off with a fine file before the dynamic balancing. The machinists refused to do the dressing as they would not partake of any responsibility if a rod broke in service. Why on earth had someone notched them I ask ? The rods and bigend cap numbers were always etched in the factory where they mate on the non-thrust side. Use paint or an indelible ink pen for heaven's sakes. | ||
| John Dare Grand Master Username: jgdare Post Number: 131 Registered: 12-2004 |
The other point that Ive noted is that such types often sense a compulsion to "number" ALL items (such as connecting rods) duly and ever SO diligently working ( eg 4 cyl. application) from No 1, to er.. No 2.. thence 3, THEN (you get more) er.. "bettah do numbah 4 as well". The mind fairly boggles. (Message edited by david_gore on January 29, 2005) | ||
| Robert Wort Prolific User Username: robert_wort Post Number: 99 Registered: 12-2004 |
Went to the Victoria Branch meeting tonight and mentioned this topic to co-members. It seems there is a lot more support for it here than I was led to believe. Certainly no disdain from any of the members I spoke to tonight. Some members have asked me if I could have further discussions with them at the next outing at Kilmore. Things definitely seem to be on the move. Any input from you Bill C. would be greatly appreciated. Sorry I can't make it to your place for the SMART meeting before the Federal Rally. I already had commitments made before I rejoined the Club. Hopefully next time as I would definitely like to meet both you and your mate. |
