| Author | Message | ||
     Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 424 Registered: 2-2013 |
I imported my Camargue from New York as a 1977 model because that's what the trustworthy dealer advertised it as but I feel that maybe it is really a 1976 model. Apart from the fact I would never buy another car from that dealer because he stated the car was complete which it was not I do have a Nebraska Certificate of Title which states the year of the car at 1977. That's not to say that I didn't think I got a good deal because I am certain I did, its just when someone states something and I find out that that is not the case I lose trust as quick a Tsar at a Bolshevik Firing Squad gathering. That aside even though I am known to pick on our American friends I must say they have the grandest of all car registration documentation. Very swanky stuff indeed and worth framing whereas here in OZ the government ever keen to fleece the motorist has decided that we no longer need registration stickers on windshields because the police cars are now equipped with cameras and computers that identify unregistered cars. But the documentation you get for registering your car in Oz is third world stuff compared to the US effort. How do you date a Rolls Royce Camargue ? - its not as if a Hong Kong original delivery has a date on the car. I have the documents from Hunt House which show the car being invoiced to Hong Kong on 3 August 1976 and the engine assembly sheet is dated 13 April 1976 and 20 April, 1976. But then there is a mysterious telex from HK to Crewe discussing "amendment to JRH 23682" dated 21 November, 1975 and shipping documents that indicate the car could not have arrived in HK prior to January 1977 so at the earliest its first registration date was in 1977. The reason I ask is because eventually when I go the register the Camargue in Queensland here you have to give a correct date of manufacture but is that the date manufacture starts or ends ? | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 533 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Vlad, This issue is a can of worms. Depending on which country you are in, the manufacturing year and the model year may not be the same. Some countries use the year of first registration as the car's model year. The systems everywhere in the world are not the same. I have a 96 Continental R registered as a 97 for the same reasons. In the end - what does it matter? we will all turn to dust and the worms will eat us - so who cares really? You still like your car whether its a 75, 76 or 77 model car....... Live with it and worry more about the how we will all cope when Trump farts his way into the White house as I am sure this matter is perhaps a lot more serious indeed. | ||
| Peter Ingram Yet to post message Username: pwingrambtinternetcom Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2015 |
In the Uk the build day month year is just that. Factory information is available in many books. I have an S2 Continental with a huge gap between works build date and leaving James Young with completed 2 door saloon body. Build date is important as it is so precise.....like birthdays !! | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 534 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Peter, Birthdays in many parts of the world don't actually matter. Many of my friends (in fact the majority) don't know when they were born because they were born at home and nobody kept a record. So they actually don't care much about a birthday they never knew about as they were growing up. In my opinion, birthdays mean absolutely nothing. And what is the definition of a build date? is it the day that the first bolt was brought to the Rolls-Royce factory? or was it when that bolt was purchased? or when it was actually made in the bolt factory? or when Rolls-Royce bought it? The things that matter in life are happiness and peace of mind..... not build dates or birthdays. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1923 Registered: 4-2003 |
It has always been my belief the build date should be the date on the factory documentation for release of the completed car for delivery to the dealer or transfer to a holding yard for subsequent delivery when ordered by a dealer. | ||
| ChristopherCarnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 5.80.52.170 |
Oh!,I never thought that I would ever meet anyone else who thinks that anniversaries are an irrelevance. The only problem being the the Christian/Pagan civilisation is dependant on them, all those useless saints, you see, for men who have no faith in themselves. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Peter Ingram New User Username: pwingrambtinternetcom Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2015 |
I am dropping out of this weird group......I thought it was a car club by mistake | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1846 Registered: 6-2009 |
I'm with Mr. Gore on this one, particularly when we're talking about cars in the standard steel body era and later. Things get a bit murkier, but not by terribly much, when you go back to the coachbuilt days and when rebodying of cars was not uncommon. Even then, most bodies were not a years (plural) in the making proposition. For cars rebodied several times it's the initial "date of whole car" that I'd say holds sway. What "matters" seems to vary by local custom as well. For those of us used to the idea of "model years" the date of completion of a given car within a model year is utterly irrelevant (and, in fact, virtually always spans two calendar years when all examples are considered). Production during this period for mass production cars means that the first example and the last example of a given make and model are very, very similar, particularly from a mechanical point of view within the range of mechanical options offered. Trim level variation is not considered of any real importance (at least until/unless a car becomes collectible and certain "levels of dress" are far more rare than others) and has no bearing at all on the model year that car is assigned. Brian | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Prolific User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 143 Registered: 4-2015 |
Peter...It is not a car club by mistake, but by intention. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 913 Registered: 1-2008 |
Certainly My Shadow One is almost certainly a 1975 model as it was first registered on New year's Day 1976. How they did that with the DVLA offices being closed for the holidays is a mystery that may never be solved, although taxation always starts on the first day of the month no matter what the actual date when registered/paid. It's a long time since I personally registered a new vehicle for road use, so I forget the actual procedure. | ||
| gordon le feuvre Prolific User Username: triumph Post Number: 106 Registered: 7-2012 |
In uk cars had to be paid for prior to release. This would be termed build completion as it was passed to sales. Standard cars took about 3 months to build, coach built 6 months as body was manufactured in London, then sent to crewe for mechanical installation, then shipped back to London to trim/paint. This included carmargue, long wheelbase(wraith), as these started life as standard 4 door shell that was sent down to be sawn in half and stretched by 4" then welded back together, all done on jig. The average delivery mileage on uk cars was 325-350 miles. Coach built were always a bit higher. Some cars were over 500, clearly had issues! A further compliction was some cars went into special features for one off mods. Were these treated as "after build" or as part of build process. Steel sliding roofs being example. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Prolific User Username: patrick_r Post Number: 249 Registered: 4-2016 |
This is a very interesting topic. I feel with newer cars the build date is the most important thing. In Australia dealers have zero interest in "first registered" date. As dealers are only interested in wholesale value here in Australia only the build date is of interest. Service records are in most cases also irrelevant to a dealer. When buying new cars for the family I have sold everything privately where what I have meantioned above is reversed. Private individuals see service history as priority one, and a build date takes a back seat to first registered dates. Funny thing I see in the vintage and classic car world is that it's almost advantageous for ones car to be older, not newer. Bragging rites for your cars do seem to be based more on how "old" the car is, the older the better. Its like we hide our age until a certain point, then we are happy to say how old we are. But unlike me/us mere mortals, our cars age beautifully. Which brings me to my point and why I replied to this thread. My build sheets show the car was signed off from the factory and invoiced to Jack Barklay in December 1971. The warranty document to the custome Sir James Barker of Unigate London are dated January 1972. However SRH12255, when looking at various sites, and other members of this forums chassis numbers seem to indicate its low number would be known as or identified as a 1971 car. The 72 number plates were fitted to the car over 30 years ago, so I wouldn't want to change that. It's just interesting that after all these years, 12255 May in fact be known as a 71 model. The only riveted plate my car has is a seat belt compliance plate.  There are no other plates (besides the Rolls Royce Motors Limited chassis number plate) on any pillar or door anywhere. However I have noted this on cars older than 72 as well, so I don't think this is unusual. | ||
| michael vass Prolific User Username: mikebentleyturbo2 Post Number: 200 Registered: 7-2015 |
Hi Vladimir There is an article in classic and sportscar about the Camarge and I must admit I am really warming to them ,some great pictures in the article, and only 2 doors so an excuse not to take passengers  Good luck with yours Mike | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1968 Registered: 6-2009 |
Patrick, You can combine your chassis sequence number along with the data in the Chassis Numbers Booklet [through SY series] to get a fairly good idea of when your car might have been completed. The 12000 range starts on PDF page 33, and the 12000 series began production in November 1971 and ran until the 13000 series began in February 1972. Since the first noted change in the 12000 series (after 12000 itself) is 12380 your car would have had to be early in that series. Anyone with a motorcar that proceeds the SZ series can use data in this booklet to greatly narrow down when their car was produced. It's not exact, but it's a mighty good "circa" method. With regard to Vladimir's Camargue, the production numbers booklet shows the 23000 series starting in November 1975 and the 24000 series in February, 1976. Looking at the last chassis change in the 23000 series, at chassis 23644, preceded by 23608, his car is near to the end of that run, meaning it probably was started after 1/1/1976. Given that the 30K series, the "two series" cars began production in November 1976, and were the first 1977 model year cars from Crewe in the USA, I don't know how that Camargue would not be considered a 1976 model year based on construction finish date (which is not likely to have been in 1977). | ||
| gordon le feuvre Prolific User Username: triumph Post Number: 121 Registered: 7-2012 |
With reference to Patrick Ryan's car,it was common practice that very few new cars were registered in UK in any December, registration being held over until 1st Jan. This "made them a year newer" when time to sell and therefore commanded more value! | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2084 Registered: 4-2003 |
Brian, The chassis number was allocated when the dealer order was received and the car was then scheduled for assembly and went into a queue of a length dictated by the number of orders in the system. Coachbuilt cars such as the Corniche and Camargue presumably would take longer than standard cars due to limitations in the capacity of this section of the factory to assemble and release vehicles for delivery. As an example, the Chassis Cards for DRH14434 show a vehicle production order for a vehicle ordered by Robert B Massey & Co of York UK was allocated a Crewe Reference Number CR524, Chassis Number DRH14434, Body Number 6405 on the 9th August 1972 and later revised on 11th September 1972. The vehicle was invoiced [Invoice Number 93941] to the dealer on 29th December 1972 however the date of delivery and shipping details have been left blank [was this done to achieve a delivery target for December 1972 with the car being delivered later???]. What is interesting is the Warranty Acknowledgement returned to Crewe by the dealer was dated 1st March 1973 but the date of delivery to the customer was left blank. Unfortunately, the cards or invoice do not show the date the car was released from the factory or shipped to the dealer. However, the build cards show evidence of a large number of mechanical issues being found during inspection requiring replacement of faulty parts including a brake pump, distributor, power steering unit plus damaged cross brace mounting brackets. So what do we use as the actual delivery date for the car - the allocation date for the chassis number, the invoice date from the factory or the date of warranty acknowledgement which presumably occurred after any dealer warranty rectification was completed to the purchaser's satisfaction? | ||
| Patrick Ryan Prolific User Username: patrick_r Post Number: 270 Registered: 4-2016 |
Thanks Brian, That is an interesting document. Gordon is spot on, my car is noted as 72 due to the first rego and warranty card. Late 71 build for sure is my car. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1293 Registered: 5-2012 |
A good bit of useless information is knowing how to date the window glass from the Triplex sticker. A dot above the T,R,E,X denotes Jan-Mar, Apr-June, Jul-Sep and Oct-Dec respectively. A dot under the word "laminated" or "toughened" denotes the year of the decade. e.g on my 74 SY1 the dot is under the letter "g", denoting 1974. No dot indicates a zero. I guess this could be useful if the date was well past the year of the car's manufacture, as it could indicate accident damage i.e. the window has been replaced. Geoff | ||
| Patrick Ryan Prolific User Username: patrick_r Post Number: 273 Registered: 4-2016 |
Brian, My car was ordered and given the chassis number SRH12255 28/9/71 Delivery & warranty was 4/1/72 Also. Here are some images of my glass.   | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1592 Registered: 4-2003 |
David, I thought I had told you, they are great car builders but lousy clerks!! | ||
| Patrick Ryan Prolific User Username: patrick_r Post Number: 275 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hi Bill, I also read this in one of your t1's I think it was. | ||
| Alan Ford Yet to post message Username: herne13 Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2016 |
Hi Guys my first post here but not my last. I am the owner of a 1985 or 1988 Bentley Turbo RL. I bought it as an '85 but old rego papers show it as 1988. I am confused. Did the Bentley come with a build sheet hidden somewhere in the vehicle, eg under the seats or carpet? | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 804 Registered: 4-2009 |
The chassis (VIN) number will have some letters before the last set of numbers that may be KCX or GCX or something like that. Tell us what the 3 letters are and we will tell you exactly how old it is. Thanks | ||
| Alan Ford New User Username: herne13 Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2016 |
Hello Omar. The Vin numbers/letters you require are; GCH 15389 I hope that is what you need. Cheers Alan | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 805 Registered: 4-2009 |
A= 1980 B=1981 C= 1982 D= 1983 E= 1984 F= 1985 G= 1986 therfore your car is an 86 manufacture. And the H tells us it is a RHD car. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 806 Registered: 4-2009 |
here is a good link for you Alan: http://www.vindecoderz.com/EN/Rolls-Royce | ||
| Alan Ford New User Username: herne13 Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2016 |
Thank you Omar, I have bookmarked the link. Thanks for the prompt reply.Yes it is a RHD car and it has a few Japanese tags in the engine bay. I think I read somewhere here that the Japanese cars are quite often found. I have the Owners Manual in its folder and the blank service history which I found to be a real disappointment but again common for Japanese cars. I have only had the car about a week, it came from Sydney City Prestige Australia. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2065 Registered: 6-2009 |
And I've posted this, repeatedly, and it is accurate: SZ Chassis Number Derivation from VIN It is the 10th character position of the VIN that gives you the model year. The two that come after that really aren't all that useful as far as giving something "instantly recognizable" about the car in question, so something like the example of "GCH 15039" tells you that you have a car that is from model year 1986 and that its production sequence number is 15039, but you don't know whether it's a RR or Bentley nor what model it is. That information is in other character positions. Brian | ||
| Alan Ford New User Username: herne13 Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2016 |
Cheers Brian and Omar. Great replies. Glad I became a part of this forum. |
