| Author | Message | |||
     Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 732 Registered: 5-2015 |
A mate has a Yamaha R1 motorbike in which he uses distilled water and antifreeze in the cooling system. I don't bother and use tap water and 50% antifreeze. I have been thinking about this. Distilled water likes to get dirty and goes seaching for impurities. Like osmosis. If distilled water is put in a cooling system it will start looking for something to absorb. Maybe it will absorb scale and other cooling system nasties. He is using distilled water in the bike not absorb scale but to not introduce minerals in the system that cause scale. Or maybe the additives in antifreeze sorts everything out. I have never seen a system damaged by tap water and antifreeze. | |||
| Bob Reynolds Grand Master Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 345 Registered: 8-2012 |
Never seen old brown coolant? That's rust damage caused by water! I doubt distilled water would make much difference. | |||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 333 Registered: 2-2013 |
Bob I have seen brown coolant believe it or not. In the trade some nong created this brown coolant no joke it looked just what you would expect to see in an grey motor Holden than never saw inhibitor for a decade. It was indistinquisable from rusty scaly water. I remember I told the boss I was working for that I thought it was stupid to use the stuff instead of the nice green Castrol product but he kept using it because of the cost the fool. Pretty sure it was made in Queensland. It was certainly one of the more nuttier ideas I saw in the trade. | |||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 733 Registered: 5-2015 |
All used jeeps have brown coolant until the new owner flushes the system. In by gone days of iron engines rusty coolant was the norm. Today I drained my Shadow the coolant is clear and blue with antifreeze. No crud. I measured the specific gravity which was 40% worn out antifreeze. The antifreeze bit probably still works but the additives are all used up. I will carry on as before antifreeze and tap water. The system seems clean but I shall do a garden hose back flush just to keep me happy. I think those rad flush chemicals should only be used if the system is obviously full of scale and other nasties. I shall pull the block drains and poke a speedo cable inner in the hole for a wobble around When I flushed the Jeep the yard concrete turned brown with rust particles. The heater worked much better after. I think distilled water will rust iron stuff. I suspect that the pure water will very quickly (hours not months) turn back to impure water. Distilled water comes in glass or plastic bottles else the contianer contaiminates it. Still the motor bike only had 3 litres of coolant. So 1 1/2 litres of pure water costs very little. My tap water is quite soft. However 50 miles north the water is very hard and everything gets scaled up. Not sure antifreeze would cope with that amount of hardness. Penny pinchers in the motor trade are many. And antifreeze is a common one put enough in so the water a pretty colour any more is a waste of money. Tip a bottle of ink in instead. Its summer who needs antifreeze. Now antifreeze is marketed as coolant to try to educate the clean hands owners. A lot of modern stuff has no rad drain petcock. How is one meant to drain the system. Taking a hose off invites other problems. The temperature in Bournemouth has dropped to 2c. There will be a rush on antifreeze. 20 litre drum 40 quid. | |||
| Bob Reynolds Grand Master Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 346 Registered: 8-2012 |
How about this new waterless-coolant stuff? Meant to be very good and have numerous advantages. Fill it and forget it. At least one person on here must have tried it? | |||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 734 Registered: 5-2015 |
I have heard about this stuff. Evidently it boils at a very high temperature. But if and engine doesn't run hot then the advantage is lost. So its going to come down to price in the end. Also what happens if the system loses coolant and only water is available. With antifreeze and water it doesn't really matter and can be adjusted with a spot of new antifreeze when one gets home. I suspect the water will negate some of the waterless coolant advantages which can inly be put right by changing all the coolant. It could with a little bit of cooling system problems get expensive. Engines run at 90c, they could be run hotter than this but water in the coolant must never boil because steam is not a good coolant. If the boundary layer between the jacket and the coolant boils then the engine will overhear big time. Read once that 10% of engine heat is radiated by the block. 30% by the oil. 30% by the radiator and 30% by the exhaust. Maybe with waterless coolant designers can run engines hotter for better performance. Just as one thinks engines are fully developped a new avenue of design opens up. This avenue goes to hotter engines. Slightly off topic. Imagine a very large turbo charger on a very small engine. The turbo charger is like a jet engine and the engine is like the combustion chambers in a jet engine. The power is taken from the turbo shaft. The engine merely burns the fuel. The hotter it runs the more power. | |||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1024 Registered: 5-2012 |
Actually the big advantage of waterless coolant is it never has to be changed for the lifetime of the engine. The first time I came across it was on Wheeler Dealers where they were advertising the stuff. Coolant properties are about the same as 50/50 water antifreeze mix, but the boiling point is 180C. One of the interesting features is the radiator cap can be removed from a hot engine without the risk of scalding steam being forced out. It is fully miscible with water however if this is added, e.g. as an emergency "get you home measure", then the corrosion inhibiting properties are lost and it has to be changed. The costs are of course much higher than standard antifreeze, around $50 a gallon. It also requires a flushing agent at around $30 a gallon. About $160 for a Shadow. I considered using it on my car but decided the annual change of coolant was not that big a deal. Geoff | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1746 Registered: 6-2009 |
The entire reason for changing antifreeze (in the past, anyway) was that the corrosion inhibitors were used up/inactivated over time. The glycols that do the actual anti-freezing have a virtually perpetual shelf and service life. From my archives, see the attached document from 2011 written by an antifreeze manufacturer outlining why distilled water is generally a bad idea for mixing with coolant. These days there are coolants that are for 50/50 water mix that have corrosion inhibitor packs that last virtually perpetually (do a web search for Peak Global Lifetime for one example). I've started using that particular coolant in my cars but plan on doing at least one change after the initial one because I know that you really can't entirely get rid of the old coolant no matter what you do (or at least like most people I know change coolant). I hate coolant changes for a variety of reasons and will gladly go with newer technology that no longer requires them. Brian
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| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 735 Registered: 5-2015 |
80 quid to change coolant is not cheap. I will carry on with 2-3 year change routine. Once a year is maybe over the top. I read somewhere that the shelf life of antifreeze undiluted with the lid on lasts for ever. I didn't realise that distilled water actually causes problems. Maybe using distilled water is a psychological thing. I must be pampering my motor bike because I go extra and buy distilled water for my baby. I do like the idea of fit and forget coolant. Especially if one can take the cap off without boiling. Can the system be run un pressurised thus imparting less strain on hoses and alike. Water pump seals and water valves would have less work to do. I saw the Wheeler Dealer episode on waterless coolant. Ed China said that because the Truimph TR6 has a overheating problem he would fit waterless coolant. The TR6 doesn't have a cooling problem. The Truimph Stag does though. The TR6 has weak crankshaft thrust brgs though. Easily sorted by not using the clutch as a foot rest at lights. Put it in neutral. I vaguely remember putting additives in coolant systems to replenish the additives in the antifreeze. Also a squirt of engine oil in the radiator. Just a squirt not a whole load of oil because it will mayonnaise. 40 quid for 20 litres antifreeze is quite cheap. So until waterless becomes cheaper I can't see many takers. Brian. Why does changing coolant annoy you ? | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1748 Registered: 6-2009 |
Bob, I find coolant changes very messy and glycol (or at least ethylene glycol) coolant is not at all "animal friendly" and I know of a number of accidental poisonings [not by me, I should add]. It's also a PITA to dispose of the stuff for a home mechanic since pouring it down the toilet is not a good thing to do, either. I also, truly on principle, hate doing maintenance that new technologies render unnecessary. Since my research has led me to discover precisely what you said, "the shelf life of antifreeze undiluted with the lid on lasts for ever," and what has driven the need to change coolant was corrosion inhibitors that "wore out" I can see only an upside to using new coolant technology with virtually perpetual service life. In the end, it's just one less thing that I need to concern myself with, and to me, that's always a plus. Others who do not share this view are and should be perfectly free to pursue whatever practice(s) they feel most comfortable with. When it comes to decreasing maintenance tasks without an increase in corresponding risk to the machine in question I'm all for it. It also strikes me as odd when I hear anyone proposing waterless coolant as a solution to overheating problems. Pure water has a much better heat transfer than any of the waterless coolants and water mixed with up to 50% conventional coolants still has better heat transfer characteristics with virtually no chance of boiling (unless something else is wrong with the system that really needs to be addressed, anyway). If your car is overheating with properly mixed coolant it could easily overheat with waterless coolant but there would not be evidence of same in the form of boiling. Waterless coolant has always struck me as a very expensive solution (no pun intended) in search of a problem. Brian | |||
| Bob Reynolds Grand Master Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 348 Registered: 8-2012 |
Apparently, although the cooling system as a whole might be pressurised, not all points in the cooling system are at the same pressure. It is common for pockets of steam to develop within the system, and this is obviously very bad for cooling, and causes cavitation, eddy currents, hotspots, and other problems. Advantages of waterless coolant are that it remains liquid between -40c and +180c, does not cause corrosion nor deteriorate with age, and there is hardly any pressure in the cooling system. This last point alone is a significant advantage, as it puts the hoses and other components under much less stress. You are almost certain to get fewer leaks over time. If you have to do any work on the engine, you are supposed to drain the coolant and re-use it. If you flushed the system out properly before putting the waterless coolant in, it should come out as new. I wonder if you could get rid of the steam valve and header tank?! | |||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 737 Registered: 5-2015 |
Waterless coolant is made by hydro tech and sold as Evans waterless coolant. Waterless coolant is ethylene glycol and polythene glycol. Because it had no water and does not conduct electricity no additives are needed. The specific heat capacity of water is 1.0. The specific heat capacity of Evans coolant is 0.6 almost half. The viscosity is about 10 weight. Evans claim that their stuff transfers heat better than water. Water exists from 0c to 100c and through out this range the specific heat capacity is 1.0. Above 100c ie steam the water cannot absorb more heat unless it is pressurised. I suspect that if 100% antifreeze were used it would be the same as waterless coolant. In a car that is well designed and used normally and maintained correctly the 50/50 mix is probably the best way. Our local regs suggest pouring antifreeze down the toilet and into the sewer. I read the Evans web site and there's a hint of snake oil. A lot of the problems they quote about water are only really applicable to engines used at high power. For a Shadow engine and alike which don't produce enough power to hurt themselves Evans waterless is probably a waste of money. The only problem with water is the corrosion. Every thing else makes water an ideal coolant. Using Evans will make the engine run a bit hotter. While theres no chance of a boil up because steam bubbles can't form the engine oil is also part of the cooling system and will also run hotter. Jay Leno uses Evans in his car collection and swears by it. So the choice is yours. Regardless of coolant the system still has to be maintained. There's a lot more than just the liquid. Suzuki used use engine oil as a coolant. This is my dream system. A Shadow without a header tank and steam valve is simply not cricket. Brian. If you prefer new technologies why have a 50 year old design. I personally like the old fashionedness of the Shadow. I also chose to be a mechanic not for the money but because I liked and still like taking stuff apart and making it better. All mechanics are like this. If not they would find the job in tolerable. I have had to shower using swarfega to get clean. Swarfega is a green hand cleaning jelly which is well known in the UK. | |||
| Bob Reynolds Grand Master Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 349 Registered: 8-2012 |
"I suspect that if 100% antifreeze were used it would be the same as waterless coolant. " Interesting thought. I wonder if that would work. What's the boiling point of neat unpressurised antifreeze? It would be a damn site cheaper! | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1750 Registered: 6-2009 |
Bob_UK wrote: If you prefer new technologies why have a 50 year old design. Not all "new technologies" are created equal, that's why. As I said before, anything that reduces the need to do what I consider to be tedious and environmentally unfriendly maintenance tasks are always great ideas in my book. I've been driving since 1978 and have never had a hose burst, pump fail, or car overheat. Every car I've driven has had a 50/50 ethylene glycol antifreeze/coolant in it that only got changed because the corrosion additives were no longer effective. I think it's long ago become apparent, and I make no apologies for it, that my philosophy is, as much as is reasonably possible, "Don't F*&K with a functioning system." "Fixing" what isn't broken, and isn't at all likely to break, is the path to madness. Brian | |||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 881 Registered: 1-2008 |
I buy my anti freeze at £ shops. For a measly quid I can have either 500ml of concentrated or 1,000ml of 'ready to use'. Obviously they only stock it in Winter, so I tend to pop 4 or 5 bottles into the basket every time I go in. As such I have 2 bottles of ready to use in the back of each of my cars and around 20 bottles of the concentrate in my workshop. | |||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 740 Registered: 5-2015 |
£2 a litre is the same as 40 for 20 litres. So good for the money. Halfords sell premix for only slightly less than concentrate. So basically one is buying water at a high price. I have replaced lots of water pumps and burst hoses. Its a standard mechanics job and bread and butter. Car parts shops keep a stock of water pumps and hoses for that reason. They tend not to stock stuff that doesn't break. Yes not all modern technologies are equal. By about 1960 the car was pretty well developed and since then the improvements have been minor but accumulative leading to better mpg etc. But the rest are rubbish. Can bus for instance. I don't find coolant changes tedious it only takes 10 seconds to open the rad drain petcock. Antifreeze when diluted by lots of water is not an environmental problem. The water treatment plants sort it out. Our local sewage plant has millions of gallons of water so even a 1000 gallons of 50 % antifreeze isn't going hurt. An antifreeze spill is easy to deal with, garden hose. I think the boil point of neat antifreeze is 180c. If Evans waterless is neat antifreeze then the bit about removing water from the system starts to tell all. Any water in antifreeze requires an additive to stop corrosion. If get you home water is added then its no longer neat antifreeze. And the whole procedure of getting the water out will have to applied. | |||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 745 Registered: 5-2015 |
I have been readimg other forums and here is the general opinions. There are users that are pleased with the stuff except of course the price. There are the odd one who has had problems. But was the system working properly in the first place. The nay sayers point out lots of things that they think are incorrect but the main one quoted is a competitor called No Rosion. Snake oil is oft used in comments. The Japanese motor heads noticed that Evans was damaging their paint work. So they had the stuff analysed. They found antifreeze and small amounts of a freon type compound which is a lubricant. So there is some fairy dust in evans water. Evans comes in 3 types all ethylene glycol. All polythene glycol. And you guessed it, a mix of the two. All of the things debated are well known in Tribology and in other engineering disciplines such as steam engines and of course engine cooling systems. Given that Crewe were or are leading world experts in how too cool petrol engines and that properly maintained cars shouldn't have problems on a third to half antifreeze then waterless coolant is probably no better. A big feature is no corrosion. Evans imply that dispite antifreeze corrosion is rife. This is simply not true. I have seen many old cars that have had antifreeze from day one and they are clean inside with no corrosion. Not sure snake oil is appropriate because Evans are not using bad science but are omitting some stuff thus over stating their proposal. But Evans can't really fully explain because the subject is complicated and lengthy. The sort of stuff where one gets confused and bored. Read the other forums and make your own mind up. Also MG guru wrote about thermostats and cooling systems read that after because it helps identify the mis information and wrong assumptions made about cooling systems. Such as the speed of coolant flow . | |||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 563 Registered: 5-2009 |
All the industrial engine manufacturers' literature warns against using distilled water for coolant, saying it is corrosive. True, it hasn't any minerals, but that's not the only issue. We like to buy premixed coolant using deionized water at a fixed concentration: less than 50% in the warmer areas, as addition of glycol to water reduces the system's cooling capacity somewhat. Pure glycol anti-freeze has a higher freeze point that when mixed with water, and it reduces system capacity substantially.Not recommended. We buy a 6000 gallon load, usually. A compressor station's system may hold 25000 or more gallons. Amazing how much leaks out onto the floor! Some of the new engines are unitized in that each engine has its own cooling system and the coolant is not intermixed I have seen brown "coolant" in neglected systems, even glycol-based will go bad if left in long enough. Bacteria will live in plain water and form big gloppy globs which can block circulation and their waste products corrode the pipe and castings. Anti-freeze with decent-quality water, usually not a problem. If your water is hard or messed up, buy premixed. | |||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1026 Registered: 5-2012 |
Antifreeze when diluted by lots of water is not an environmental problem. The water treatment plants sort it out. Our local sewage plant has millions of gallons of water so even a 1000 gallons of 50 % antifreeze isn't going hurt. Or to put it another way, simply dispose of your used antifreeze down the toilet. The surprising thing is Bob_uk is right. The Florida Department of Environmental Protection does not list ethylene or propylene glycol as hazardous waste. It does however state "heavy metal contaminants such as lead and organics such as benzene, tetrachloroethylene (PERC) or trichloroethylene have been found in used antifreeze from passenger vehicles at levels that would identify the used antifreeze as hazardous waste." It therefore advises that vehicle repair facilities should follow best management practice and send their stored waste antifreeze to a recycling facility. So even for repair facilities it appears it is not actually illegal to dispose of antifreeze through the sewer, as is the case for disposal of other fluids such as engine oil, which will attract a very large fine. I personally will still continue to take my used antifreeze to the recycling facility as I have to make the trip anyway, to dispose of my used engine oil. Interesting though, I would have thought it would have been classified as hazardous waste. I guess everyone knows this, but just in case - always keep antifreeze in sealed containers as it is deadly to pets and wildlife. Regards, Surprised of Tampa | |||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 747 Registered: 5-2015 |
Evans said that their stuff is not poisonous. So maybe it isn't antifreeze. Antifreeze is easy to clear up with lots of water. So any spills just hose it down. As said the best is plain water. I was told by Blue col that 50/50 is almost as good and when the antifreeze is increased to 90% the efficacy drops rapidly. Note recently 70% has been quoted. Nucleate boiling. When water boils next to the jacket in the boundary layer tiny bubbles form which insolate the water from the jacket. But the bubbles move away and more water fills the gap. Designers know this and design using this fact to their benefit. High boiling point isn't really useful if the engine doesn't overheat in the first place. As for no pressure it must expand a bit. The pressure is only 15psi max on water based coolants, not exactly a lot and hoses etc will easily take that. When pressure testing I have left the gauge connected to the system and run the engine. Most cars get to about 5psi. Antidotal story. A guy with evans kept going with the temp gauge well into the red. The engine completely wreaked itself. The engine didn't boil so he carried on going. Talk of 20c increase in head temp has been quoted not good. Also remember that the oil is also part of the cooling system. IMO just use third to half antifreeze and forget about water less. The engine was designed for 50/50. I can't find one engine maker recommended or using Evans. | |||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 882 Registered: 1-2008 |
It's interesting that you should mention 'going into the red' on the temperature gauge. Earlier this week I had cause to travel a fair distance down the motorway to collect something I had bought (eBay). Now 'my' tame mechanic has assured in most definite terms that the head gaskets don't fail on Honda D16 engines like the one fitted to my Rover Cabrio. However just past the first services and in road works I noticed that the gauge was past red and still oozing upwards. With nowhere to stop I looked for succour everywhere and a couple of junctions later followed some lorry park signs. Which immediately disappeared after the start of the slip road. Fortunately just off the roundabout there were signs for a hotel so I pulled in there, opened the bonnet and cautiously removed the overflow bottle pressure cap. No pressure! So I went into reception and waited while a young woman finalised some details and paid a deposit for a 'do' she was planning. That took about 10 minutes and the receptionist kindly gave me a full wine bottle - of water! It took another 3 pints to refill the cooling system, plus a fifth bottle just in case. I continued my journey and returned without incident, but 'my' mechanic is going to get the job of replacing the head gasket in the next couple of weeks while I rely on the Dodge for local jaunts. I have examined the engine, radiator (new last year) and hoses with no indication of a leak, but there are whisps of steam coming from the back of the engine just under the inlet manifold. Head gaskets don't fail? My ... Aunt Petunia they don't! | |||
| Bob Reynolds Grand Master Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 351 Registered: 8-2012 |
I remember in the 50s and 60s it was common for motorists to regard anti-freeze as just that. So come November or December you'd hear: "It's getting a bit frosty at night, I'd better put some anti-freeze in the car", and they would just tip a bit in the radiator. Quite often, people didn't bother and they usually got away with it, if the car was garaged. (Water starts to expand at 4c, that's 4c above freezing) For the rest of the year, they would run with pure water in the system. There was no regard to the anti-corrosion properties of anti-freeze. Most people thought it was just to stop the car from freezing. | |||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 750 Registered: 5-2015 |
I was like that when I first got a car. But soon started to be careful when I had a car freeze the water pump in a cold snap. Ford 1959 100e 1172cc side valve. 3 speed gear box. I didn't know any better Until I drove an A60 Farina. It showed what a crap%y car Ford made. The Farina was better at everything and used less petrol doing it. I think the modern driver is a bit more aware. But don't understand fully the corrosion bit. Latent Heat. It takes 1 BTU to heat 1 lb of water I degree F. If I have a pound of water at 200 F it would take 11 BTUs to get to 211 F. To get to 211.99 would take .99 of a BTU. But to get to 212 takes many more BTUs. Imagine the area of the cooling system around the exhaust valve. The engine is producing BTUs and the cooling system is taking away the BTUs. To boil the coolant many more BTUs are needed. Thus means that nucleate boiling sucks heat out better than less hot coolant. The surface tension of water is quite high. To stop the small wee bubbles from getting bigger the surface tension is lowered by a surfacant. This allows the pressure of the wee steam bubble to overcome surface tension. Which is how water wetters work. Water wetters are in antifreeze. Evans doesn't boil so the advantage of latent heat isn't available. It appears that water is not the best coolant. It appears that 50/50 is actually better. This subject is so complex. Bad things can be turned to advantage. I didn't know water started expanding at 4c. Providing its still liquid the expansion tank and relief valve should handle that OK. Even 10% antifreeze will give freeze protection but may go slushy. The heat of the engine quickly melts it. I should think the anti corrosion additives won't be enough though which is why I quote at least a third. Some cars the water pump is driven by a cam belt. So a frozen water pump can strip the belt and bend the valves if an attempt to start the engine is made. Looked in my local pound shop and they had no antifreeze. But as I said 20 litre drums at 40 quid are available. That almost 10 tens years antifreeze at 4.5 litres for each change. Could even use only 4 litres but thats penny pinching. I have drained my Shadow ready for a flush. The old antifreeze I will use in my Jeep. Its at 40% specific gravity. So still has frost protection down to minus 25c. Todays temp in Bournemouth tonight is 9c. A squirt of oil in the coolant helps. Sump heaters. I have fitted these to large trucks that go to cold places. Its a sort of electric kettle element in the sump pan. Very very effective. The trucks had a small petrol generator but with a bigger tank for 24 hours run time. There was a small electric water pump. The hot oil kept the water at 50c which also heated the cab up. And starting the truck was very easy no starter grinding with fingers crossed. Car versions are available theres one that fits in the bottom hose rather than the sump. In the UK this is not needed but in Alaska and Canada it would be useful. Ice Road Truckers and all that. Another device is a petrol burner heater thingy. Ambalances have these but are diesel not petrol. Very good are these heaters. These only heat the interior not the engine. Some big diesels must be pre warmed before starting. Warsilla ship engines are like that. The engine and oil must be warmed before starting. Before this conversation about Evans water less. I didn't know about a lot of this stuff but I do now. This forum is very educational. | |||
| Bob Reynolds Grand Master Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 352 Registered: 8-2012 |
"I didn't know water started expanding at 4c. " Yes, water has this curious property whereby the graph of Volume against Temperature goes into reverse at 4c. Like everything else, water expands when heated and contracts when cooled, but when it gets down to 4c it starts to expand again, until it reaches 0c when it starts contracting again. I think water is the only thing that behaves in this strange way. It is this strange property which is responsible for burst pipes, etc. and frost damage in general. | |||
| Alex Peterson Unregistered guest Posted From: 1.129.96.82 |
This explains why ice forms on the top of ponds (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 884 Registered: 1-2008 |
And why there's liquid water under most of the Arctic Ice sheet. I'm surprised that so many people don't already know this. I was at school when it came up in science lessons, alongside the concept that the boiling point of water is relative to air pressure over it. eg. In a vacuum and inside the orbit of the asteroid belt ice can *sublimate* directly to a gas without liquefying - just as dry ice (solid CO2) does on Earth. A tip: A bottle of pop cools faster in the freezer, but leave there too long and the bottle will almost certainly burst. Quality Vodka doesn't usually freeze at these temperatures and can be poured into a glass with drowning it in melted water ice. Nice! | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1776 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jan, I've never seen vodka freeze in the temperatures generated by home or commercial food freezers. In fact, a common practice for parties is to freeze a bottle of vodka in a block of ice by placing it inside a well rinsed paper milk container, loading in some decorative material appropriate for the party, filling with water then freezing the whole lot. This works beautifully when you want to have icy vodka over the course of hours and have something nice to look at while doing so. You just need to have a firm grip when you pick it up! Brian, who's also cooled soda bottles to well below freezing so that they would turn to slush immediately upon opening. It's quite cool to watch the "instant freeze" that migrates from the top of the bottle to the bottom | |||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 887 Registered: 1-2008 |
Going back to the use of distilled/deionised water in the cooling system for a moment: As has been touched on; in many areas - at least in the UK - the tap water can come from reservoirs fed by streams and rivers that flow over or through limestone. This mean they can pick up serious quantities of dissolved contaminants that can become concentrated in any holding vessel that is subject to heat. In the UK that's usually called 'fur' and is a regular killer of kettles unless treated on a regular basis. To most this means filling the kettle with a solution of vinegar (acetic acid) or lime/lemon juice (citric acid) and boiling it up once or twice. It works, but getting rid of the smell and taste afterwards can take a lot of rinsing out. You can buy proprietary cleaning agents to do this without any appreciable taste or odour, but as the active agent is almost always citric acid you're better off financially if you buy the real deal - citric acid crystals - from your friendly, neighbourhood spiderman ... er ... home brew emporium. What does this mean for the average driver? Pretty much nothing until the day dawns when his engine overheats and he finds that the restricted channels in his radiator are so restricted that most of them are completely blocked! This effects some cars more than others. On the whole, the less value an owner places on his vehicle, the lower will be his maintenance of it. Even so some cars are more prone to this than others. There are a couple of rare Toyota models, Estima Emina and Estima Lucida, which exemplify this. Although the same diesel engine is used in other Toyota models it's only in these two models that radiator furring becomes a serious problem, but none of these cars are more than 20 years old. With the average Silver Shadow being twice that old or more it wouldn't be too adventurous to presume the same kind of trouble may be lurking under that iconic mascot. The cure is so blindingly obvious that most people assume it's snake oil and wouldn't touch it 'with a barge pole'. My regime takes into account that a system might be severely affected and goes along these lines. Drain a little from the cooling system so that you empty the header/expansion bottle and, with a warm engine (preferable, but not essential), pour an indecent quantity of dry crystals into the header/expansion tank of the cooling system and wash into the system with enough water to refill the tank. Around 200-250 grams per gallon of coolant should do. Leave overnight and check the coolant level the following morning. If the system was severely furred up it will have dropped significantly as the acid dissolves the calcite and reopens previously blocked passageways. Now simply use the car as normal, while keeping a weather eye on the coolant level, for a few days or weeks depending on how much use the car gets. When you think it's been in there long enough simply drain, flush and refill with the coolant mixture of your preference. Ps. The effectiveness of this treatment is not in any way harmful to any of the material used in the construction of any engine I'm aware of as the acid does not affect metals, preferring metallic compounds. It also doesn't matter if you leave the old anti freeze in the system. Hell, it's so safe it's used as a preservative or flavour enhancer in a wide variety of foodstuffs! | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1780 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jan, Although I agree with your overall points about citric acid and its safety, one still has to be cautious with the stuff in high concentrations. Citric acid is a safer alternative to what is commonly called "pickle" in the jewelry making trade, but you still can't be cavalier with the stuff, particularly if you buy in "chemistry grade" rather than "food grade." It's purpose is to attack compounds that form on the metal during soldering, and to remove flux, and it targets stuff other than metals proper. Your method of decalcifying the cooling system has been much discussed elsewhere, and been used with much success, too. If one is using commercial coolants in the appropriate concentrations with water that is "normal" (that is, not really, really hard/mineral laden) virtually all have additives to keep deposits of any significance from forming. When I had my disintegrating fan blade damage to the radiator on LRK37110, and took it to the radiator repair guy, he remarked upon returning it to me that what he could see "on the inside" looked like a virtually new radiator. Brian | |||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 788 Registered: 5-2015 |
The tap water in Bournemouth is not too bad for furring up. I have found that antifreeze stops the furring. My system is as clean as a whistle. Citric acid is safe to use in the Shadow. 48 hours and 10 miles is probably enough. Before putting the orange juice in its best to do a complete garden hose flush first. If badly bunged up take rad out invert and back flush. Also blow out gearbox cooler bit.Then simple flush and refill with coolant antifreeze etc. While flushing remove stat. | |||
| Bob Reynolds Grand Master Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 353 Registered: 8-2012 |
Although kettles and washing machines do get badly furred up over time, that is because they are constantly receiving gallons of fresh tap water on a daily basis. I'm not sure how serious a problem this is for cooling systems that only get topped up once every two years. I suppose some damage could be caused over a period of 40 years or so, but it's nothing compared to kettles and washing machines, etc. | |||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 789 Registered: 5-2015 |
Very good point. There's only so much minerals in water that isn't changed. Distilled water is not ion balanced and will seek a way of balancing itself. This means that once added to the system it becomes no lomger distilled water. This is not a problem because antifreeze sorts it out. |
2011 Engine Coolant Water Information