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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 639
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Saturday, 24 October, 2015 - 07:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Today I got my Jeep MOTed. It passed.

I asked the tester about LED bulbs and he said all bulbs must be E marked including after market spot lamps etc. Anywhere else doesn't matter. He only checks lens on custom cars just in case. He has never checks bulbs. The "well it works" rule.


Incidently he was an older mechanic like me and commented on the lack of corrosion on my Jeep due to oil spraying etc.

The present UK vehicle lighting regs were last updated in 1989 before LEDs appeared on cars. Having been a civil servant the ministry of transport will be thinking if there isn't problem then further legislation isn't needed. However the present regulations can be applied to LEDs. So providing the LEDs aren't hugely different from normal bulbs then fine. The main thing is brightness or dimness as the case maybe.

So not too bright or too dim and E marked, and everyone's happy.

The main use for me is the rear fog lamp and instrument lighting and interior lighting. The rear fog lamp because it would be on for a long time would get too hot and maybe burn the reverse lamp lens. And also 382 bulbs in red are not available. The aftermarket rear fog lamps that use incandescent 21w bulb are usually quite deep to keep the bulb well away from the lens. Or glass lenses. The LED cluster I have made is illegal because its not E marked. So I shall have to buy one.
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Mark Aldridge
Prolific User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 265
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Saturday, 24 October, 2015 - 09:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob, I have not found any "E" marked LED lamps but have fitted non marked ones in pre E marked lens vehicles but not in rear lamp, stoplights or indicators.
If you source correct lamps, could you post a link,
Mark
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 645
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 28 October, 2015 - 07:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Oh dear I assumed that E marked led bulbs were available. It does say not road legal on one site. I guess that might be why no one in Bournemouth sells them.

E marking in relatively new and post 1980 I believe before that --kite mark.


IMO if I am only going to use one LED bulb as a rear fog lamp which I am not actually required to have then it would take a right nerd of a copper to nick you for it. The very worst is going to be a fix it ticket. Which would be take bulb out.

I see all sorts of lighting mods which are illegal and never heard of anybody being nicked apart from lights not working and even then the plod usually just warn you.

Not so with pedal cycles no lights at night and the cops give out a ticket 80 I think. Because 2 or 3 cyclists a year get splattered because they thought they were illuminous.

I saw a car last night with red lights pointing down under the car. The road glows red. The front was white. It looked very effective but no fog to test properly.

The main thrust of the lighting regs is being seen, being able to see and not dazzling other drivers
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Christian S. Hansen
Frequent User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 76
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 28 October, 2015 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Speaking of "dazzling" other drivers, and not knowing how it is in other parts of the world, am I the only one that finds the new style of LED headlights to be blindingly intense for oncoming traffic? Also the way there is a sharp demarcation line below which there is intense light and above which there is darkness, gives the illusion that oncoming traffic is flashing their high beams at you as the oncoming vehicle hits bumps and irregularities in the road which cause that demarcation line to move up and down, blinding you intermittantly, just like as if the driver actually was flashing their high beams. It is equally annoying when one of these vehicles is following you at night, because then the "high beam flashing" syndrome is reflected in your rear view mirrors.
Questions:
Am I the only one bothered/blinded by this?
When will they make these lights illegal, even if it means going back to the old environmentally insensitive incandecent headlights.
Frankly I will take environmental insensitivity any night over being repeatedly blinded by oncoming traffic. Thoughts?
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1721
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 28 October, 2015 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,

Not that I disagree with your complaints, and share them, but I think what you're complaining about is HID headlamps, which are quite common (and have come in a fairly wide array of "tints" including distinct pink, white, blue, and purple casts) while LED headlamps remain relatively rare by comparison.

I have hated HID headlamps (and if LED have the same characteristics, I'll hate them, too) ever since they came on the scene. They routinely "dazzle" me to the point of almost complete blindness, and that's if I'm at the mercy of them on the low/dipped setting. When they're used in pickup trucks or anything with headlamp positions that are in line with eye level of those driving typical cars they're even worse.

There is a point where "more is better" is patently false, and that point was reached with headlamp technology a while back as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think most of the so-called advances in automotive lighting technology are driven by environmental concerns so much as the attitude that "more is better" when it comes to amounts of light really should be a perpetual quest.

I won't even get into the impression I have that most drivers somehow forget that they even have the ability to switch from high beam back to low beam once they've flipped the switch at some point.

Brian
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Christian S. Hansen
Frequent User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 77
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 28 October, 2015 - 04:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian...
Thanks. I was sort of relying on someone else who knew better than I as to the lights. Whether HID, LED, or whatever, they are a menace and safety concern. I simply assumed them to be LED as the "blinding brightness" is similar to and shared by the new flashlights (hand torches?)that now use multiple (or even one) small bulbs. Whereas in the past when such a flashlight beam was shined into your eyes, they were bright, yes, but these new ones are simply blinding.

While in terms of lighting, it is quite apparent that "more is better" swayed the argument of "shall we or shall we not approve for adoption", but even that is problematic, because the field of vision where the "more" exists is so clearly delineated below a certain horizontal line. Those few times I have been a passenger in such vehicles, and once as a driver, I found the absence of illumination above that line to be as disconcerting in its absence as the brightness is apparent below that line. The effect, at least to my perception, was that objects came into the illuminated area instantly as in first you don't see it and then all of a sudden you do, and it was startling. The old pattern would be like a forward projecting cone of light and if you graphed the intensity, it would be like a bell curve. The new pattern is like a block projected forward and the graph would be vertical at the edges.

Also, I do not believe that it is simply a matter of drivers neglecting or forgetting to dim lights for oncoming traffic, at least in the city, but rather it is the inherent problem with the design caused by the fixed line of delineation between light and dark moving up and down as the vehicle moves up and down when travelling over bumps, cresting hills, and the like. The other night I was approached by three vehicles in town and at slow speeds and by the time the third passed, my sight had been completely obliterated. I contemplated pulling over to the side of the road for a moment, but quickly realized that I had no idea where the side of the road was or what obstacles might be parked along it. Instead I slowed at bit and just held steady as fortunately it was a straight ahead road, and in a few moments my vision returned. It was, needless to say, a bit disconcerting, and made me think to myself, in terms of self-help, "So many headlights, so few bullets"!!
(Joke. Just kidding.)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1765
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 28 October, 2015 - 07:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,

Can only agree with you 110% - problem here is with new vehicle HID and LED lights often being deliberately misaligned to give longer range and the fact that new vehicles do not have a roadworthy test until they are 5 years old and even then headlight alignment is not properly checked.

If enough of us complain, we might convince the traffic authorities to organise random headlight alignment checks and defect notices to get higher levels of compliance with the relevant design rules.
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 867
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Wednesday, 28 October, 2015 - 08:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just to put the feline among our feathered friends; I usually fit highly illegal high output xenon bulbs in the headlights of my cars. Rather than the standard 55/60 watts or lower these are 90/100 watts. The UK vehicle test only looks at the light pattern and spread with regard to dazzling oncoming drivers. The lack of 'E' markings cannot be seen as the bulbs are never examined.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 994
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 29 October, 2015 - 12:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I had a strange experience a few years ago in the UK. The car behind was blinding me with his/her headlights so I reached up and switched the rear view mirror to it's anti-glare setting. I believed the driver had forgotten to dip his lights. It was quite surprising when, upon seeing my action, the driver immediately switched his headlights to main beam, completely flooding my car with light. His lights were so badly aligned, whether intentional or not, even his dipped beam was blinding me, from my rear view mirror. I was not bothered as as I was now in anti-glare mode, head moved slightly to the side to avoid the glare from the side mirrors. Very strange. I cannot figure out why he/she took such exception to my defensive action and can only surmise there are some really weird people out there. It was just an odd experience. One can only imagine how blinding it was for other vehicles traveling in the opposite direction.

I'm not sure I agree with Christian's solution, although, this is America.

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1722
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 29 October, 2015 - 12:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

Rocks, bricks, and baseball bats are available and would be as readily effective, though not from distance.

Brian
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 995
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 29 October, 2015 - 01:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

and don't forget the baseball ball. That way if the police search your car they think you are a sportsman.

One thing I am surprised about in the US is the amount of horn blaring that goes on, given that so many cars have loaded handguns in their glove boxes. I thought everyone would be super courteous.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1723
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 29 October, 2015 - 01:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff Wootton wrote: I thought everyone would be super courteous.

Isn't myth wonderful!!

My own, "I can't believe this is happening!!," driving experience was having my rental car pushed, literally, by someone easing up against the rear bumper when I was trying to get into Boston Logan Airport. Weirdest experience I've ever had, bar none.

Brian
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Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 230
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, 29 October, 2015 - 02:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I always loved the bumper sticker:

"Keep honking. I'm reloading."
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 650
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 29 October, 2015 - 08:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am afraid some drivers get a sense of entitlement when cocooned in their comfortable tin box.

I act when driving as if I am face to face with other road users that way people dont get road rage. Hopefully.

In Bournemouth we have a militant cyclist he chases after cars for infringements of his version of the high way code. He blinds drivers with a flashing LED strobe. The cops have had a word with him but he carries on. He's going to get knocked off his bike cycling like that.

Many years ago a 14 year boy used to skate board down the middle of a side street he was warned many times that it only takes one drunk driver and your splattered. He got hit by a drunk driver in broad daylight. Broken leg.

The right of way is really a myth. The only way is if the road is clear. I don't think the words right of way are used in the high way code.

In general the standard of UK driving is quite good. I rarely see cars exceeding the speed limits by a lot or dodgy overtaking. Drivers are resigned to not bother going fast because of the amount of traffic. Its easier to go with the flow and be patient.

I don't think LED headlights are developed enough yet. They can't be dipped although Audi have a shield that drops down to alter the beam. First cars had similar. Nothing quite new.

Also they DO get hot anything more than 85c is bad. So they have to be cooled. Which in frosty weather can cause the lens to ice up. So they have to balance this out.

The headlights on my car are as Crewe. They are adequate just.

It depends on what one expects. I expect at night to drive slower because I can't see as well as in daylight. Dorset lanes are generally 60mph but at night 30mph tops its so easy to forget a bend and end up in the ditch. Seen it many times. On the way to work each week there would be a car on its side in a ditch with a police aware sticker on it. I always look in the distance for glowing headlamps above the hedges on the windy bits.

The UK regs are first mot is 3 years. The alignment of lamps is part of the pre delivery service. The adjustments should stay right for years. Mine do on every vehicle I have had. The mot beam setting equipment is quite good. The main reasons for misalignment are bulb changing and accident damage which has not been repaired correctly. The mot will pick it up and fail. If the adjustors are free and eady access then an mot tester may give them a quick tweak to pass.

However the correct aim and the mot version are different. The correct one from the maker is tighter tolerance especially on how low.

Chalk lines on the garage door can be quite accurate. Important that car is square to the door and level.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 655
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Saturday, 31 October, 2015 - 09:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

More LED information.

White LEDs give off a light with higher blue content. When put behind red or amber lens the blue will react with the red or amber and give purple ish light. So red or amber LEDs must be used behind coloured lens. The other way round red or amber LEDs behind clear lens is OK. Incandescent bulbs have no blue content so white incandescent bulbs behind coloured lens are OK.

My home made bulb isnt a complete loss because if I lower the inbuilt resistance the bulb will be brighter or one of leds pops. Then it won't work at all because the LEDs are in series. I am thinking of 100 ohms which is low and may not fully protect the LEDs.

An experiment I did was with 1 led with a 300k ohm resistor. The led will work from 8 volts to 48v. 48v is the maximum dc voltage I have. I use it as a test lamp it draws about 30ma.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 299
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Friday, 13 November, 2015 - 05:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Its amazing just how crazy road rules can be. In the late seventies in Western Australia the police traffic coppers where called the RTA. That's short for Road Traffic Authority. Now these chaps were something different. Indeed they were the closest thing I have seen in the west to the full blown SS Nazis and if I found evidence they they were over represented in underground fascist clubs I would not have been even slightly surprised.

The fool politicians in that state had passed law to the extent that every car that had aftermarket mag wheels on it had to have a special permit. So immediately on getting pulled up you were asked if you had a permit for the mag wheels. No ? Then you got a yellow sticker on the front windscreen which had usually a fourteen day period on which you had to get the vehicle inspected at the government garage where another pack of Nazis would crawl over the car with a magnifying glass picking on stuff that was not even remotely connected to safety.

Just how many millions of dollars this political stuff up cost is anybody's guess but the caper only lasted about ten years before the government finally put these pack of fools out to pasture.

Nothing brings a police force into general disrepute than an idiotic law passed by a twit political fool trying to feather his or her own publicity.

Now we have very dangerous blinding headlights on vehicles everywhere and nothing is being done. The authorities are more concerned about invading people's privacy by raiding their homes for dope or tracking down fining and crushing the cars of young chaps doing burnouts and posting to youtube.

I have had to quickly stop the car on more than one occasion because I could not see properly because of these headlights. They must be killing people and or causing accidents.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 685
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 13 November, 2015 - 06:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

In the UK we are very laid back over modified cars.

In general people who modify cars spend a lot of money doing it right. In the UK modified cars are not involved in any more accidents than the norm. Also accident doesn't necessarily mean fatalities most are fender benders damage only.

The police do check cars and can prohibit cars because of dodgy stuff. The police have cops who are mechanics. The Mot test picks up the dodgy stuff as well.

No need to get cars re MOTed just because of alloy wheels thats just silly.
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Mark Aldridge
Grand Master
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 500
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 06 February, 2018 - 04:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

An update, I was considering fitting Philips LED headlight bulbs in the Cibie H4 headlights on my 1956 Bentley SI. My insurers, a leading classic car company, have stated that the bulbs must be road legal, or the insurance is invalid. They are happy with LED bulbs as long as they are legal for road use, which LED bulbs are not , apparently due to the specification of the word "filament" in the legislation.Updating of this to allow retrofit LED is blocked in the EU by the German Government apparently.
So, back to uprated "e" marked halogens. Roll on Brexit !
Mark
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 705
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 06 February, 2018 - 07:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Am I the only one who finds fault with the new LED headlamps due to their being excessively directional? For oncoming traffic the glare is blinding, especially as an approaching car goes over irregularities in the road. The effect is as if they are intermittently flashing their high and low beams. Even the slightest bit of upward mal-adjustment results in blinding intensity. Am I the only one?

.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1897
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 06 February, 2018 - 08:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I'm with you Christian. I wish the authorities would start researching this issue and come up with some modern guidelines/laws for headlights.

The roads here in Oklahoma are very narrow and being a semi rural area where I live, pitch black dark at night. I will be glad to get back to a city full of three lane roads and street lighting where there is no problem. (No insult meant to Oklahoma - it's a great state)
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1928
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 25 March, 2018 - 02:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Here's some further information:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43525525

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