| Author | Message | ||
     Robert Noel Reddington Prolific User Username: bob_uk Post Number: 243 Registered: 5-2015 |
A mate who does performance engines built a 2.1 litre air cooled VW engine for Beetle based kit car. The engine had been designed with Mobil 1 oil in mind. So he included a can of Mobil 1 with the engine. The owner wouldn't except that air cooled VW engines shouldn't use mono grade 50 weight oil. An added complication was that the engine was dry sump with thermostatically controlled oil cooler. Once the oils warm then 50 is ok but its the warm up period thats the problem. The oil must flow freely. Fortunately the threat of no warranty made the owner use the oil supplied. Old habits and misconceptions die hard. Bob the oil guy does a engine oil 101 which is worth a read because it fills in the gaps and explains the misconceptions. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1454 Registered: 6-2009 |
I just don't get why people "don't get" that mono-viscosity motor oil went the way of the dinosaur for a reason. I also don't get why people don't get that motor oil gets less viscous/more fluid as it warms. I don't know of any oil (motor or otherwise) that doesn't. You can demonstrate this easily with several fats that are solid at cool room temperature but that melt when in contact with they human body. You can see it even if you cook with canola oil (or similar) which goes from "thick" when cold to almost like water when hot. The whole purpose of multi-viscosity oil is to make it behave like a less viscous/more fluid oil grade when cold and transition to behaving like a more viscous/less fluid oil grade when warm. It gives you "the best of both worlds:" maximum flow when cold without an undesirable decrease in lubrication as it warms up. Of course, getting across the point that a hot higher weight oil is often far more fluid/less viscous than a cold lower weight oil is a challenge. I like the Bob Is The Oil Guy Putting the Simple Back Into Viscosity page, particularly the chart that shows the various viscosity scales side by side. Brian | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Prolific User Username: bob_uk Post Number: 246 Registered: 5-2015 |
In the early 1980s Ford and Mazda designed an engine which required 10w40 oil. The average owner put in 20w50 which shortened the engine life by up to half. I told a few customers that 20w50 was wrong most ignored it because the bloke down the pub reckons the new oils are like water and no good. Stands to reason the thicker the oil the better. Notice that STP and Wynns are both very thick. This is because it stands to reason that the thicker the better. If the only thing oil did was oil then thick would work. But oil also carries away heat. The oil has to flow to carry the heat. It's the heat bit they don't understand. Also further to that some engines use oil to even the heat out. Incorrect oil can cause oil fumes to condense in the rocker box and sludge the top end up. The black death. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Experienced User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2015 |
Robert... Back in the late '60s when I bought my first Mk6 Bentley from London's Frank Dale, Duckham's 20/50 was recommended, and since then I have just always had it in mind that a 20/50 would be proper in all the pre-war and early post-war models. Do I err? Would a 10/40 be preferable? | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Prolific User Username: bob_uk Post Number: 247 Registered: 5-2015 |
The engines you refer to were designed with 20 grade sae in winter and 50 grade sae 50 summer. so 20/50 mineral oil is fine change every 3000 to 6000 miles. This VW engine and Ford Mazda engine were all designed around 0w30 for VW and 10w40 for the Ford. This VW engine is not really a VW engine it just looks like one. In any case builders of real VW air cooled say multigrade oils are best, and have no idea of why a mono grade should be used. The bloke down the pub again. Go to bob the oil guy and read motor oil 101. Oil thins as it gets hot. This is seen as a problem. When if one looks at it from the other way oil gets thicker as it cools. And this is the real problem. I had a FX4 black cab. It spent the first 12 years as a cab on a multidriver rota. The engine never got cold. I used it for local stuff doing small miles and the engine started to smoke and generally leak. The reason this happened was because of the continual cold starts. The engine had to be hot to run efficiency and modern stuff runs at 90c to 95c. Older engines 85c to 90c and older still 80c. This means that the oil has to be hot as well. 50 sae at 90c is about say 12 sae. A 40 sae would then be around 10 sae. Which is about perfect for good oil flow and carrying away the heat. When the engine is cold the 10w40 and 20w50 are both to thick to flow properly. The flow is still there and is enough to carrying heat away providing the engine is driven gently for 2 miles and then after about 5 the engine should be fit for action. Synthetic or Mineral. Synthetic oil comes from crude oil the same as mineral oil. Mineral oil is made from liquid crude and synthetic is made from the fumes. Synthetic is refined more than mineral. A 10w30 grade synthetic starts of as a 30 grade and has additives added to do the 10w bit. 10w30 mineral starts off as a 10 grade and has additives to make it 30 grade. When the additives wear out the synthetic stays at 30 but the mineral drops to 10. When new both synthetic and mineral are equal in performance. Mineral oils wear out quicker about 1/2 the life. Except turbo charged cars. Mineral oils can turn to carbon if the engine is turn off thus losing cooling oil flow through the turbo brgs. Synthetic doesn't coke up. Notice that oil flow not pressure oils the turbo bearings. Duckhams make good quality engine oil the oil is as good as Castrol Shell Mobil etc. The modern version of Castrol GTX is a better oil than the original GTX. Note Zinc phosphate additives. This additive is a good additive and used by oil makers. The minimum required for engines with sliding surfaces like tappets is 1000 parts per million. A good classic oil must have zinc ph. Zinc ph damages catalytic convertors so modern oils have less Zinc ph. as low as 200 ppm. This is not good in older engine designs. Bob the oil guy explains it much better. I have heard stories of oil leaks caused by the use of Mobil 1 in mineral oil engines. I suspect this is caused by the cleaning properties of the oil stripping away carbon that was stopping the leaks. Thats the theory. But I have never actually seen this happen. Quick recap 20w50 in the engines you mentioned is fine. No worries. Oil pressure. this bit isn't in bob the oil guy. Imagine a cold engine the oil is thick. The oil pump relief valve is set at 50 psi. The oil is so thick that the relief valve opens early and most of the oil just goes back to sump with hardly any flowing to the bearings. The oil can't warm up quicker because its not flowing through the bearings to get heat. Fortunately the relief valve will warm the oil a bit. Fortunately us shadow owners and later have to dally for up to 4 mins for the hydraulics to charge. IMO the best thing to do on cold engines of the prewar and early post war is to run at say 800 rpm for 30 secs and then drive gently for the first 2 and pick it up a bit until the 5 mile then its all systems go. IMO its not good to wait for 5 mins for the engine to warm. The quicker the engine warms up the better. And gentle driver is the quickest and safest way. Sump heaters are good. Some engines must not be started until the oils warm say 60c. The oil wedge. As a shaft turns in a hole it will have a high pressure area and a low pressure area. The designers arrange the oil flow so that it goes in at the low pressure bit. This causes a wedge of oil to form in the high pressure area thus stopping metal to metal contact. This happens regardless of oil pressure and all that is needed is flow. But pressure is needed to create the flow. Oil pressure gauges in cars make amateurs think that its about oil pressure. Try this get two bits of flat thick steel oil them and clamp them hard in a vice. When released there will still be a film of oil. No matter how many tons is used the film of oil stays. | ||
| christopher carnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 86.181.211.141 |
Duckhams were the first manufacturer to include ZDDP additives for PW engines specifically for the flat tappets, ie cam followers. It was called Adcoidisd Oil,as they had tins of pills called Adcoids, to add to petrol in the 1930.s. The efforts of the environmentalists have resulted in most Classic motor oils having almost no anti scuff additives, but the synthetic Mobil 1 has the barest minimum, or all engines would suffer. The 20/50 of 1950, is not the same as 20/50 of 2015, and on the same note, the differential oil of 1950 was Castrol Hi-Pres SC, and was in fact EP140! All the cars of up to 1959 I have in for service or restoration get Comma Super Diesel 20/50, (or whatever it may be called) or 10/40, if the engine is a total rebuild, as it still has ZDDP in it. The manual gearboxes get EP 80/90, and the diffs have EP85/140. The engines of last series of the R-R V8 Arnage from 2007, have had the tappets replaced by roller tappets,as in pre-war practice, and the camshafts induction hardened, mainly as a result of breakdown of the modern oil film, but scraping dry flat tappets with early PW cams cut back at 50 degrees,was a bad idea in the first instance. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1462 Registered: 6-2009 |
The repeated statements that modern oils do not possess the necessary qualities to protect the engines in gasoline powered vehicles simply do not stand up to scrutiny. Our cars are difficult enough to maintain without this endless ZDDP urban legend that will not die. I shall simply post again what I have posted in the past: ============================================== [Links were active as of 5/5/2015] Reading through the API & ILSAC motor oil standards/specifications for current (API SN/ILSAC GF-5) oils and the preceding specs should put anyone's mind to rest about the suitability of currently available motor oils for use in older car engines. On the API website, they explicitly state, "For automotive gasoline engines, the latest engine oil service category includes the performance properties of each earlier category. If an automotive owner's manual calls for an API SJ or SL oil, an API SM oil will provide full protection." [See: http://www.api.org/certification-programs/engine-oil-diesel-exhaust-fluid/service-categories] For oils for gasoline-powered engines, each and every specification meets or exceeds the performance of all of its predecessors. This means that there has been a continuous improvement in lubrication performance and that oils meeting current specifications are far more than "adequate" for older engines. API Materials: Motor Oil Matters Guide (2013), "Which Oil is Right for You?" - http://www.api.org/certification-programs/engine-oil-diesel-exhaust-fluid/~/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publications/MOM_GUIDE_ENGLISH_2013.pdf Full API 1509 Spec - 17th Ed - September 2012 (Addendum 10/2014 & Errata 3/2015,Includes ILSAC GF-5 Spec in Appendix Q) http://www.api.org/~/media/files/certification/engine-oil-diesel/publications/150917thaddendum1-032515.pdf?la=en ILSAC Final GF-5 Spec: http://www.gf-5.com/uploads/File/ILSAC_GF-5_Dec-22-09_final.pdf and, from the Mobil Oil Q&A Site: On needing to Mix Oils for ZDDP Levels: https://mobiloil.com/en/faq/ask-our-auto-experts/questions-for-auto-experts/mixing-motor-oil-to-reach-the-right-zddp-level-for-classic-cars I find it interesting that even on this "answers" page the statement is made that a particular one of their oils, "already contains a higher level of ZDDP (1000 ppm) that *could* benefit your flat tappet engine." [emphasis on that could is mine]. I have yet to find a single manufacturer who states either "will" or "does," but instead couches the statements in ways such that the preconceived notion is addressed. On Purported "Removal" of Zinc & Phosphorous from motor oil: https://mobiloil.com/en/faq/ask-our-auto-experts/questions-for-auto-experts/has-zinc-been-removed-from-motor-oils Mobil Oil Product Table, including Zinc & Phosphorus Levels: https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.ashx ================================================= The certifying bodies set up extensive test protocols and all state, unequivocally, that the latest certification levels meet or exceed the lubrication properties of all earlier levels. The testing protocols are not strictly "bench testing," either, but include extensive field tests in multiple engines. I don't know what else one can say. Brian | ||
| christopher carnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 86.181.211.141 |
"You have to listen to what the engine is telling you" Rolls-Royce, Derby 1943. The oil companies sell oil, not engines. 1100 ppm, is the "barest" minimum. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1463 Registered: 6-2009 |
Christopher, You have to listen to what the certifying bodies tell you, not what "Gus down the street" or "the guys on the car enthusiast websites" do. The API specs have been used worldwide, for decades, as have the ILSAC specs (but for less time since it's a newer organization). This has nothing to do with "the oil companies," but on the willingness of people to believe that which is patently false. The API and ILSAC specs are about engineering, not marketing (at least not directly). The quote from RR is a non sequitur. Brian | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Prolific User Username: bob_uk Post Number: 253 Registered: 5-2015 |
ZDDP works well as an anti scuff additive. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1464 Registered: 6-2009 |
As it so happens, this particular discussion has reared its mythic head elsewhere. The usual work around for those who live in utter terror of lower levels of ZDDP is to use engine oil marketed for diesel engines, which does have higher levels. Another poster in that conversation, who knows quite a bit more about petroleum and lubricants than I do has said it best (I omit his name here only because I have not yet received formal approval from him to pass this along): The reports of changes in oil additives have been falsely reported as having happened continuously for nearly 15 years. It’s 99.99% rumor with little factual basis. The last diesel change was when diesel oil specs went from CI (2002) to CJ in 2010. There have been no changes since then. Zinc itself is not limited in any way. It’s the companion element, phosphorous, which is regulated. ZDDP is also not a single ingredient but a class of thousands of different compounds of varying utility making the actual level not so critical. There are also more modern additives that do a similar job that are not zinc based. Zinc is just the CHEAP way to do that job. All the major diesel oils not only meet a diesel spec (CJ, etc) but also a gasoline engine spec the latest of which is SN. They are approved for either type of engine except possibly for catalyst equipped cars. (If your valve stems seals are bad the increased oil consumption could possibly damage your cat. Change the seals when needed.) There was a second round of false predictions of impending doom when the gasoline spec went from SM to SN. That was complete hot air since the SN spec did not require any such changes; the EP additive spec for SN was identical to SM. However, I know of none of the doomsters who retracted their predictions. Instead of prohibiting them, both specs REQUIRE such additives. It is a companion 'Energy Conservation' GF specification that requires lower levels of phosphorous but it only applies to oils that are 'Energy Conserving'; it does not apply to diesel oils and is not part of the SN spec. Even GF-5 did not change any of those requirements compared to GF-4. To paraphrase Mark Twain: The report of the death of zinc additives was an exaggeration. ----------------------------------------------- This is, of course, borne out in both the API and ILSAC specifications for API SN service and ILSAC GF-5 service levels. Brian | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1465 Registered: 6-2009 |
P.S. Permission to attribute was granted. This comes from Gary Phipps, who's a regular on the U.S. forums and who is a retired engineer (though not a petroleum engineer) but who had extensive training in petroleum, oil, and lubricants during his military service when one of his jobs was as a lab technician dealing with same. Brian | ||
| christopher carnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 31.51.27.232 |
I note that no one has offered any information on extensively testing a single rebuilt "pre-catalyst era" engine, using modern oils. What then is or was the appropriate level of anti scuff additives and what was the service life of any of the oils to offer any reasonable protection? As when you actually measure the wear on the components, it is way, way below the case hardened layer. There are no manufacturers data sheets provided in any of the journalese, moreover other forms of anti-scuff compounds are not specified. There is only one compound other that the "ZnP", currently used,and that is molybdenum dithiocarbamate, with as yet unproven results. Many of the "Oil"writers have no actual oil company laboratory experience, and the man who wrote "Which Oil", Richard Michel, was not an "Oil" ,man, but a classic car owner who had researched other "authorities", to pen a rather readable paperback. So,who do you believe when so few have actually seen the damage caused by cyclic engine use,short journeys,inadequate servicing, neglect and the rest? During my early years as an apprentice, I asked the senior technican at Hythe Road, for his advice on the best oil to use. "It doesn't matter, so long as you change it often", was the reply. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1466 Registered: 6-2009 |
Christopher Carnley wrote: who do you believe when so few have actually seen the damage caused by cyclic engine use,short journeys,inadequate servicing, neglect and the rest? Why, the engineering experts, of course. Who else? If you can read the testing protocols for the API and ILSAC specs and make the statement that field testing with engines of all types (yes, they do it) is inadequate, then there really is nothing else that can be said. There are no "unproven results" in oils meeting the API/ILSAC specs. Even the old advice about changing oil often has been altered, radically, by improved filtering and lubricant properties. What "often" means is simply different now. I've offered materials that people can read and consider at their leisure. At least then a fully informed decision can be made. Brian | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Prolific User Username: bob_uk Post Number: 255 Registered: 5-2015 |
Cor what a lot of confusion. Oil choice to me is simples Mobil 1. for synthetic and Castrol GTX for mineral. Can't go wrong. There are other anti scuffers. That work fine. Theres also one additive that must not be used in anything car. Chorinated Parrafins. If CP is put in an engine the engine gives more power etc. Unfortunately CP attacks copper based alloys and wreaks the engine. All this is academic because we on this site only use quality oils don't we. Comma oil company is using the supply of their oil to a motor sport team as an endorsement of their oil. One race on new oil proves nothing. So ignore the race connection. Comma oil is a good oil. Some oil companies make new oil from dirty oil. I have seen crude oil and it looks just like the dirty *rap in waste oil tanks. My local oil guy is a Castrol Agent and has a hot line to Castrol and lots of technical books on oil. Any oil problems I ask her. I believe what the oil and car makers tell me. Sometimes the correct answer is given for the wrong reasons. But as long as the oil is correct then I can ponder the reasons at leisure. I think to hard sometimes. I look at it this way. I know that the engine in my Shadow is about 35bhp per litre. That amount of power doesn't need a super duper oil. I recommend IMO Mobil 1 or Castrol GTX. For UK cars. Other countries have alternatives that are just as good. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 813 Registered: 5-2012 |
Bob My local oil guy is a Castrol Agent and has a hot line to Castrol Don't suppose you could ask her for the Castrol recipe for RR363  Geoff | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Prolific User Username: bob_uk Post Number: 258 Registered: 5-2015 |
I asked many years ago and got nothing back. In general the oil guys will chat about how good the oil is but get all shy about the ingredients. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1676 Registered: 4-2003 |
Many years ago before the advent of discount auto stores, I used to buy drums of Castrol GTX direct from Castrol on my employer's account. I would call in to their plant at Guildford in Sydney to pick up my order which also gave me access to their filling line. What was interesting was other brand oil drums [mainly Valvoline] went down the line apparently being filled with the Castrol formulation - no-one I asked would ever confirm if this was the case for obvious reasons and I was not prepared to reveal this as I did not want to lose my access to cheap Castrol GTX. I suspect repackaging another refiner's products in remote locations is common practice in the oil industry to reduce costs; I know it has been the practice for many years with bulk deliveries of petrol/gasoline/diesel fuels in Australia. This would explain the reluctance to talk about ingredients especially when you consider some of the industries' well known advertising slogans. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1468 Registered: 6-2009 |
I can't say anything about the motor oil industry (though my suspicions echo what Mr. Gore has observed) but I am certain that there are a very limited number of gasoline refineries in the United States and that these are the source of all brands, major through the tiniest minor, that are sold in the United States. Whether some of the vaunted "secret ingredients" touted by the various brands are added when the base petrol is pumped into its transport tanker I do not know. I do know that this is when ethanol is added. One of the reasons I've never been brand loyal for gasoline/petrol is because of the previously mentioned facts. I've never been brand loyal for motor oil because of the API Service Specifications and any oil that meets a stated service spec, well, meets that spec. I've been sticking with the latest service spec for decades now because the service specs for gasoline engines have met or exceeded the performance characteristics of all prior specs. I guess a manufacturer could lie about their testing results, but there's absolutely no way to know that barring a scandal after it being discovered. The petroleum companies are all big businesses that could ill afford that kind of falsification and its ramifications. Brian | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Prolific User Username: bob_uk Post Number: 260 Registered: 5-2015 |
Its the same in the UK. Tesco sell motor oil. Some suggest its rubbish oil. Its not the oil is from Shell or BP or Castrol. Tesco don't make anything apart from bread and do nuts. I have seen BP tankers at Esso garages probably delivering Texaco petrol. UK has 3 refinery. And another 3 big supply depots. But quite a few small capacity depots. I know of a police station that keeps reserve government fuel. I use castrol stuff soley because I have an agent near me. If say BP had an agent them I mught use BP. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1471 Registered: 6-2009 |
Bob & David, What's most amazing is that even when you have multiple sources providing irrefutable evidence that, for all practical intents and purposes, "it's all the same," there are those who will fight to the death to proclaim the vast superiority of brand A over brand B. For virtually all products there are a limited number of manufacturers. As Bob pointed out, most "house brands" of many products are nothing more than something bottled/boxed/otherwise packaged by a well-known major brand in packaging specific to the businesses they're supplying. If you start digging into any house brand you can generally trace it back to the major brand manufacturer that made it. The real trick is keeping up with who's actually making the stuff if there is some very specific difference of import. You never know when a given house brand may have shifted from one major manufacturer to another. This is one of the reasons I love that there are third party specifications, including government specifications (in the USA and most western nations), for virtually any automotive product of a "mission critical" nature. I only wish that this would go into effect across tire brands for the UTQG rating on tires. When I last checked these ratings were only done within a single brand. I guess if you're brand loyal this gives you useful information, but not if you're trying to compare competitors' tires. Brian | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 486 Registered: 5-2009 |
Me old Ford company car has survived 214,000 miles on 5W20 and oil changes at the recommended intervals based on the on-board oil change reminder: no problems plus it doesn't use a measurable amount between services. 5W-20 scares people but how can you beat that? I can't state what brand of oil it's had for certain: whatever the quickie change place uses. They have a lot of Castrol signs about the place. Oil requirements seem to be: enough; clean; good quality at the recommended viscosity. In the USA Wal-Mart house brand seems to be highly regarded on "Bob's The Oil Guy" as they know who makes it. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Prolific User Username: bob_uk Post Number: 262 Registered: 5-2015 |
Tescos, wall mart, morrisons etc. Dont sell dodgy engine oil simply because of the ensuing legal action should a load of cars go pistons out. Exactly that happened when a tanker driver stole road diesel and delivered red diesel with acid in it to bleach out the red dye. A 100 odd diesel cars broke down with fuel pump problems. The average cost of repair was £1000 per car. The tanker driver got nicked. Tesco paid out £100,000 to get cars fixed As it happens supermarket oil in the UK isn't that cheap. Motor factors cheapest. One 20w50 SG rated oil is going to be much the same as any other 20w50 SG rated. I checked out VW aircooled and in the 50s and 60s VW recommended mono grade. When reliable multigrade became available VW recommended multigrade as backwards compatible and a better oil. In southern europe 20w50 and northern europe 10w40. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 838 Registered: 1-2008 |
On a regular basis I've found that the cheapest 20W50 oil in the UK can found at ... B&Q! | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Prolific User Username: bob_uk Post Number: 268 Registered: 5-2015 |
Thats handy because I need 20w50 for the lawn mower and other general oiling stuff. | ||
| h_kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 243 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi,someone might be able to enlighten me..I ordered Castrol GTX 10th 40 semi, however castrol ultra clean 10w 40 "Synthetic Technology " arrived, then whole oil thing goes over my head. Anyone? Thanks P's just put new set of Avons on the ss2 today Hk | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1865 Registered: 4-2016 |
Send us some pics of the SSII with the new Avon’s H. |
