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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 468
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 19 May, 2015 - 04:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

What is the opinion of the general DIY type person regarding the use of a 2004 Phantom for everyday transport?
Will maintenance of such a new car be easier or more difficult for us older folk?
I know they are only BMWs but there is a big element of fear every time I contemplate buying one.
I welcome views from those who are better informed about these cars.
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Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert
Frequent User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 75
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Tuesday, 19 May, 2015 - 06:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar, my answer won't help you much, but why don't you just go out and buy one. You only live once. And if you happen to dislike it, then offer it to me! ...may I chose my color combination now? ))))
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1305
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 19 May, 2015 - 06:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar,

All this is second hand, so take that for what it's worth.

The few people I've known who have owned a Goodwood Phantom have mostly declared them magnificent, but impractical for daily transport.

They are huge by contemporary standards and if you do much in-city driving managing to find parking can be a challenge. There are also reports of these cars, at least the earlier ones, being "less than robust" in the electronics department. Since they're all from the era of "rolling computers" that gives me pause about them. My jaw has also dropped when tire costs have been discussed.

These things are definitely worth thinking about. I have also written to someone I know from the RROC-US who has owned a Phantom sedan and a Phantom DHC to see if he's willing to have a direct e-mail exchange with you. If I get a response in the affirmative from him I will do an e-introduction between you two.

Brian
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 188.29.165.164
Posted on Tuesday, 19 May, 2015 - 04:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I know nothing of the BMW Rolls Royces.

However the cars are built by guys repaired by guys. But I suspect that the equipment required is expensive.

The Phantom and Ghost can both be used as daily drivers.

I would ask a RR dealer.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1563
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 19 May, 2015 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This discussion is very topical given my view that the idea of restoring these cars is simply impractical. The very first Goodwood Phantom manufactured was sold to a Western Australian member of our Club and arrived at that year's Federal Rally in that State. Some day the organisation of the deal will be told for our children so I can only guess at the trepidation of the manufacturers about the delivery.

I was resident in the States in 1968 and drove a couple of brand new demonstrator Shadows. Word had it that new owners in that country had only to raise an eyebrow about their new car and Factory reps were on their doorstep. Legend has it that some enterprising new owner, baulking at the price of the unique engine oil filter inserts, discovered that a similar filter from a Cadillac with a couple of modifications, would do the job nicely. Apparently it didn't and two engines were destroyed. The Company generously replaced them. Service Bulletins flowed like confetti but the Company to their credit 'hung in there'. Then in 1971 the aircraft wing of the enterprise brought the whole company to receivership. The next couple of decades resulted in the demise of the original Company and the loss of yet two more motorcar icons to foreign interests followed.

Back to Perth and that Rally: the 'first' Phantom from Goodwood attended apparently with a boot crammed with spare parts which no doubt some hapless engineer had selected as rectifying any conceivable problem with the car in it's new clime. The car of course had Rally attendees swarming over it and apparently there were several opportunities taken to cosy the car up to a Crewe Phantom from the local Vice Regal garage that also attended the Rally. The overall lengths were very close and much commented upon. The Goodwood car's attendants were allegedly very uncomfortable with this comparing but the factor received little notice given the uniqueness of the car and its location. Last year coincidentally during one of my 'minder's' periods with our Federal Head of State's car I had occasion to try parking it with other cars which required press-ganging four passing pedestrians to guide me into the space required. I was observed by yet another citizen who co-incidentally was a local professional public bus driver. He rather kindly came across, admired the car and offered to give me some lessons in parking buses! As you say Brian they are huge!!

Looking ahead, I cannot comment on the new Phantom but I understand Bentley have decided that mere mortals not trained under their auspices should not be allowed to re-build their engines. Apparently, you can't simply buy a set of bearings pistons etc etc needed for a major overhaul. Instead you take the car or at least the engine to their representatives for attention. A related story is the casualty rate for the GT models - no reflection of their quality, simply their inability to coping with exceptionally well heeled owners who regard maintenance as being a blight on their hedonistic lifestyle. When these cars expire ( the terms immortal and invincible do NOT apply to any car made on this planet) they are grabbed by 'dismantlers' for parts. All that said, the future resurrection and restoration of these cars does not bode well!

I have yet to drive one of the new Bentleys but have driven an early model Goodwood Phantom and indeed it is a beautiful car. And so I wonder while sniffing a fine Scotch Whisky in my dotage, just what is to become of these wonderful cars?
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
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Username: soviet

Post Number: 259
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Tuesday, 19 May, 2015 - 12:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar, I think a 2004 Phantom would be a horror story maintenance wise as it would be filled with all sorts of nasty electrical units causing diagnosis of any problem to be a total headache.

Being a German engine, I think they will go the way of late model Mercedes and BMW ie resale value goes down like a lead balloon regardless of the mega bucks they cost when new.

For the money you will pay for the Phantom you could probably pick up an excellent condition Lamborghini Diablo in Florida even from a dealer and then your wife will really think you have lost the plot when you take her down a good road at over 200mph.

That said, ever though these cars are now built with German engines which I think is horrid evil and nauseating to the extreme the suicide rear doors make them look superswank even if the front of the car is as ugly as my Camargue.

Either way which ever you chose, try to buy it on your anniversary and say you bought it for her etc.

While it is going the Phantom will be fine but when it starts to misbehave you are going to need a mechanic who really knows his way around all its electrics.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 469
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 19 May, 2015 - 01:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear All,
Many thanks for all your comments.
I have driven a few of these Phantoms and they are truly magnificent in every way. I love how they drive and how they look. One of my friends has a few of these Phantoms and the horror stories i hear about tyre prices and recharging the aircon with gas and replacing batteries have really put me off the car. Simple activities on normal cars cost at least 10 to 45 times what you will pay for the pleasure of owning a Phantom.
I still dont know what failures cost to rectify and who indeed to go to when something goes wrong. Although these are becoming affordable cars, I still dont think between us we have the ability to put them right when they go wrong - and if we do - the parts will be crippling.
Because you only live once - I would prefer to live happy and enjoy my older Bentleys and Rolls-Royces.
Phantom crossed off the Christmas list for this year.
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 385
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 19 May, 2015 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Buy a GM Suburban if you want big.
Buy an older Rolls-Royce if you want one.
Buy a Packard Twelve, maybe...
I saw a new Bentley sedan last week, in black, and it was beautiful. I don't recall seeing paint that black, ever. As for the new Cars, I prefer the more sedate Bentleys: they seem closer to the traditions of both marques somehow.
All the high-end cars full of electronics are going to be nightmares when they age, because electronics age so rapidly, and due to rarity the parts are not likely to be available nor reasonably priced. Even cheap cars now are going to the breakers with shiny paint because they cost too much to repair and are so complex. Remove the engine to replace the coolant pump,needs a new computer, we can't figure out what's wrong with it, et al.
Of course, these are more works of art than practical automobiles, built regardless of cost for people who want and can afford them. That is their place and that is fine with me. I just wish they didn't fall into non-British hands. Seems disrespectful somehow.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
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Username: soviet

Post Number: 261
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 20 May, 2015 - 05:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Then again Omar, perhaps it's time to be morally deviant.

Given the Phantom's body build quality a hoot would be to get one with a blown engine and buy a 600 hp 500 cubic inch carby engine from Cad Power in the US for 8 grand. Drop that into the Phantom with a slightly tricked up Turbo 400 transmission and a gear vendors overdrive. All this is easy to fix and I have a lead to a US place that claims to have solved the brake system debacle in such a swap.

So you get the super swanky Phantom body with its brilliant interior with the totally reliable very powerful drive line.

You keep all the original Phantom parts you remove in storage for some masochistic punter who is crazy about original and you spend the rest of your life blasting down Dubai's excellent highways.

With some custom RR stamped rocker covers and air cleaner holder you will be able to fool a lot of people and/or just keep the bonnet closed to all eyes claiming it doesn't open.

You are the man for this mission Omar - go for it!
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Grand Master
Username: lluís

Post Number: 356
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Wednesday, 20 May, 2015 - 05:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear all,

The moaning about electronics being unbearable has been going on since the generalisation of fuel injection in the 70's. How about "no"?

I have never had any issue with electronic reliability in planes or cars that could not come multiplied by 100 in mechanical components. In fact those micro computers are a lot more robust that most mechanical items. Obscure diagnostics were cured since the introduction of ISO protocols for on-board communications.

As for the V12, I would suggest calling Brabo in The Netherlands. They maintain V12 powered Royces of at least the Seraph period and W12 Bentleys.

Discussing it with a club member who maintains his V8 Royces, he stated that the V12 was more complex and heavy maintenance but a fantastic smooth engine that he throughly loved.

In case you want a Phantom, buy it. Maintenance of modern technology has always been a frightening issue in all periods: how do you think the Cloud owner felt when looking at the Shadow's hydraulic system?

My Continental R is full of computers. I have had leakages, vacuum leaks and inoperative boost system all due to mechanical failure.

My 1987 XJ40 was one of the first cars with a frightening quasi-multiplex wiring: guess what: in 400.000 Km not a single computer failed (rust, hoses, racks, dampers did, but not a computer).

I also own a 1380 16V Racing Cooper Mini. It has a CAN-BUS driven EMS as complex as anything postmodern inthe market today. An Laptop and a CAN Driver is all you need to diagnose any failure and re-program with an accuracy that leaves Mr. Twin-Webber 45 wondering about his sputtering fuelling.

Be not afraid to learn, but be aware that you may need specialised diagnose tool.

As for the car being too big, no, it looks big, but when you are driving a 5.34 m. two door coupé Omar... I would not call a 5.5 metre four door big, would I :-)?

Best regards,

Lluís
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Grand Master
Username: lluís

Post Number: 357
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Wednesday, 20 May, 2015 - 05:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vlad,

You cannot be serious: the V12 is balanced to a pedantic point. Have you ever driven a Phantom? No noise, no vibration, no idle shake.

I would love one 600hp 7 litre Yank in a rodder, with a nice chrome charger and make that a 400 3 speed transmission with a long diff so that I can idle along the highway at 100 mph. But no, you cannot compare an Steamer Train to the TGV. It might ooze charm, but it's just two purposes.

Since we are at it and we have bonnet length, make that a VIPER 8 litre V10 in a Ferrari 612 and just dump that sequential box and put a good ol' 400 with a rigid axle. Who needs adaptative dampers anyway?



Lluís
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Bob Reynolds
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Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 254
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 20 May, 2015 - 06:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"I have never had any issue with electronic reliability in planes or cars that could not come multiplied by 100 in mechanical components. In fact those micro computers are a lot more robust that most mechanical items."

This is true, but it misses the point. Yes, electronics are far more reliable than mechanics; but when they go wrong they are far harder to fix.

If a mechanical component fails another one can always be made. You can either do it yourself or take it to an engineering firm and say "Make me one of these". If a chip fails it's no good taking it to an electrician and asking him to make you another one!

Even if you can get a new chip, it may still need to be programmed with data which you don't have, using a computer which you can't get.

It's not about reliability - it's about "fixability".
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Grand Master
Username: lluís

Post Number: 358
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Wednesday, 20 May, 2015 - 07:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Nope, certainly not. In case a generic electronic component is broken is extremely easy to diagnose and fix with generic equipment. In an extreme case, a main calculator can be reprogrammed in a day of rolling road (notwithstanding the fact that generic programmes will already get the engine going). And that is as complicated as it gets, resistances, transistors, diodes et al are easy to diagnose and replace.

I follow what you say, Rob, but in case a block cracks, of a valve is bent, or a piston holed because of the carburettor going unnoticed lean, you are looking at a very complex mechanical repair and no, guy next door will not machine a block out of the blue for you, you will go to a dealer or the scrapyard like you would for the boost ECU.

So I did not miss any point: Mechanical stuff can be complex to repair, electronic stuff can be complex to repair. And you may have hard electronic repairs and easy ones, just like in mechanics.

What frightens people is the non-understanding of electronics and the opacity of the repairers network. This has applied to any technological breakthrough since the invention of automobile.

I note on this, that the same supplier of my Typhoon ECU for the Mini has a Blackpool engine Twin Turbo V8 (SUFACON Bentley Specification) to complete an electronic overhaul (all new modern ECU and Boost Management System). It will be less expensive than getting many a multicarb system operating properly and the performance and operational stability / reliability uncomparable.

Would the Boost ECU in my Continental R give up, it would be a matter of hours to have a modern Boost Management system invisibly retrofitted. Slightly more (because of reprogramming and connections) for the main engine ECU.

I rather do that that overhauling the intake and turbo system or changing a piston because the Solex leaned it to death.

And finally, no, the computer you can get with the cable you can get will get you very far because of ISO protocols since 2000.

Best regards,

Lluís
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1308
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 20 May, 2015 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Lluís,

I'm with you on this one. I have found autommotive electronics (other than on RR, oddly) to be one of the most robust parts of a car. I'm currently driving a 1989 Cadillac Sedan de Ville as my daily driver. It's got the all electronic dash and was the beginning of the "rolling multiplexed computer" era. It's not the electronics that have required service.

For all the prognostication about electronic components being the end of "cars being restorable" you've hit the nail on the head: people have been saying that about virtually any technological advance you can name.

We're already seeing a cottage industry springing up to repair ECUs of myriad sorts from a wide variety of makes. These computers are not "rocket science" for many. Electrical engineers seem to be able to not only understand them, but be able to reverse engineer them with ease. If you know what they're supposed to do, and can create or repair them, programming them should not be problematic, either, particularly since originals employ non-volatile memory which can be interrogated.

Eventually there will be the equivalent of electronic "machine shops" that can make you replacement one-off, or nearly one-off, electronic components and program them for you. Given what we see certain young kids able to do with computing, hacking, and electronics I very much doubt that these are going to be the death of keeping cars made these days on the road.

Brian
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
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Username: soviet

Post Number: 262
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Thursday, 21 May, 2015 - 06:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ha Ha I love this forum its almost Russian Crazy. But if you all don't believe my blat about electronic stuff causing great pain try this. Just try making a living from fixing the gear for 6 months.

People want their cars to go and keep going. They do not want excuses however technical and whiz bang especially if they have hocked themselves in the eye ball for 80 grand.

Chat like: Sorry we don't have a scan tool that works on this model or the manufacturer won't give the repairers the software just seems to fall on deaf ears. Toss like the coil packs are fried at 50,000 K or the TPS has croaked at 60,000 k also does not appear to get the general public raving about EFI. The brilliant Pajero that shuts down it ECU because its Particle Collector has been clogged by use of the wrong non fully synthetic oil causing a $3000 tow bill between Goanna and Snake Bite town does not give a family of five any need to hail the brilliance of the new complexity of cars.

The wrecking yards here are full of your late model computerised electronic fuel injection models and getting fuller and the early American carby cars are getting more and more expensive. You know the old cars.

The Japanese have the right idea. By a new car. Full of your electric wizardry. Crush it at 30,000 kilometres. Buy another one. Aussies don't get it and the market proves the point.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1309
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 21 May, 2015 - 08:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir Kirillov wrote: People want their cars to go and keep going. They do not want excuses however technical and whiz bang

Seriously, Vladimir, the first statement has been true almost forever. What people considered "go and keep going" has gotten more and more stringent as cars have gotten more and more reliable over the decades. It is utterly impossible to argue they have not by any objective measures. I can still recall when you had to change cars about once every 4 years or so, at most, in the snow belt where I grew up to avoid having a rust bucket in short order. It's been at least 30 years since that's been the case. Routine maintenance intervals have gotten longer and many things that once were routine maintenance have gone out of existence entirely due to technological improvements.

The wrecking yards here are full of your late model computerised electronic fuel injection models and getting fuller

As they are here in the U.S.A. and, I'd imagine, throughout most of the world. Most of what ends up in wrecking yards at any point in time is models currently produced or from the period of about 10-20 years prior, with fewer and fewer of the older cars, which were coming in in much higher numbers when they were newer themselves.

That older cars become collectible is also nothing new. Most of what are now considered "collector cars" were "old junk" when I was learning to drive 37 years ago. 'Twas ever thus. You can be certain that there will be people seeking to get that ultra-rare cherry Pontiac G8 in about 20 years or so. Most of those people will be in their late 30s to about 50 years old at that time. Another case of 'twas ever thus.

There is nothing new under the sun, and the natural cycle of new->nice daily driver->old/embarrassing->really old/junk/I wouldn't be seen in that thing!->that old car's kinda cool->must have car I remember from my youth certainly isn't.

Brian, who doesn't know who would crush any car at 30K km, regardless of country of origin. We run 'em much, much longer than that on these shores, and with current technology 10 times that is not unusual
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 92.40.249.49
Posted on Thursday, 21 May, 2015 - 05:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I agree with Lluis.
All the electronics on any car can be remade. The finished circuit probably won't be identical but will do the job.

There are programable engine manuagement systems such as mega squirt.

Also raspberry computers can work the rest.

The value of the cars will make it possible to repair even ther worst of electronic problems.

A mates son does car electronics and hes very switched on. He can repair ECUs no problem. Hes very popular in the modified car scene.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Grand Master
Username: lluís

Post Number: 359
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Thursday, 21 May, 2015 - 11:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

What can be said that Brian did not say.

I recall Jorge Manrique (XVI century spanish poet):

Recuerde, como cualquier otro tiempo pasado fue mejor
.

I remember, that all past times where better.

Yet this is called nostalgy, it's biological and it has nothing to do with facts.

PS to Bob: Playing with puzzle-style EMS is so much fun. I run a BMW K1100 LT head on my modified 1380 cooper block on a Typhoon ECU from Specialist components and a modified intake with four individual throttle bodies. Only thing I do not have is Variable Timing, which is a magnificent pity.

PS to Brian: the most marvelous invention is lamba sensorics, maintaining a slightly sub-stoichiometric ratio is a blessing for power and economy, and then you hear people complaing about replacing the 100 euro sensor every 100.000 Km.

TPS in my XJ40 is going strong at 27 years and close to 400.000 Km. It's just that you should not put solvants on it when you clean the intake.Packs in #52020 going strong at 65000 miles. Can they fry? Yes, so can the contacts in your favourite distributor.

Lluís}
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 390
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Friday, 22 May, 2015 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

2008 Ford company car has 211000 miles, hardly a whimper and uses no oil in 6000 miles (which is my approximate change interval). Company has unlimited repair money, just in case...
However, in 10-20 years, no parts? Who knows. No one will want a 2008 Taurus base model in 2028.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1312
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 22 May, 2015 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Randy,

One thing Gerry Acquilano of the RROC-US has said repeatedly, and that's dead accurate: There's an ass for every seat.

While the demand for the 2008 Ford Taurus base model will be low in 2028, there will still be a few odd someones who will want one. I wouldn't be looking for significant appreciation on investment, though. ;-)

Brian
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
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Username: soviet

Post Number: 263
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Friday, 22 May, 2015 - 01:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The argument about late model cars being reliable whilst having there many electronic components is defeated by simple mathematics.

Old cars: Coil - never seen a canister type coil that has been defective in 44 years;

Condenser: Never seen a condenser defective in 44 years apart from the one on this forum - I think it was Geoff's.

Points: Yes they wear out after 10,000 miles.


New cars: ECU seen hundreds replaced that were okay but only seen one on a VW Passat that was defective.

Throttle position switch: These wear out but easy to replace but on many models the scan tool will not state they are defective. I test them using an ohms meter. They are a regular problem;

Cam and sensor: They go bad all the time; The car stops;

Crank angle sensor; They also go bad regularly and the car stops;

Electonic module that sits on top of the rocker cover they get fried on Jags regularly indeed on high traffic Friday afternoon 6 stories up in a shopping centre mine went on me; lovely stuff

Exhaust gas sensor; They throw the car into limp mode; A common defective part

Coil packs; notorious for going zit and quite costly to replace on even the cheapest models.

Electronic injectors; Hardly cheap on any car and you can have twelve of the little monsters playing up electronically

Two fuel pumps: Often replaced

Then you have all the extra wiring on an EFI system and genius companies like Toyota use 1 millimetre wiring that breaks regularly inside the harness. That $2,500 for the new harness and $2000 to fit the harness on some models.

Being kind that's a 2 to 7 argument and the 2 is for the condenser and coils that go on old cars with such irregularity it really shouldn't be taken into the formula.

But perhaps the champions on EFI are right however my experience with it over the time its been on the market is that it is expensive to fix, unpredictable, not anywhere nearly as reliable as carby motors and the tow bill expecially in the outback shows people just walking away from them on a very regular basis.

So no I just don't buy the EFI argument at all.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
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Username: soviet

Post Number: 264
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Friday, 22 May, 2015 - 07:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Would I entrust my Camargue to the evils of EFI ?- not in a million years.

In fact I want a points ignition system in it. That means, electric fuel pumps aside, on the electrical side I have only the condenser and the coil to go wrong and if they do I can attend to that wearing a white suit and have it diagnoised and done and be back on the road in 15 minutes and not have to wait for the tow truck or have to leave the car in an area where my mobile phone is out of range to call for a tow truck.

EFI simply can't compete with that type of efficiency and as we all know a Rolls Royce is simply not the type of car to be left unattended anywhere outside its garage.
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Grand Master
Username: lluís

Post Number: 360
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Friday, 22 May, 2015 - 09:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vlad, you are entitled to your own opinion.

I had a Corniche 1977 during a few months, the car was not my property but I took it over from the owner during a long stay abroad of him before the decision not to buy it. The Solex gave trouble at all occassions, from vaporization to no erratic idle -nice car though-. It was bought and re-sold without a loss to Brabo.

I admit that changing the carburettor alltogether would have solved the issue, but even Brabo did not manage to overhaul the thing properly -notwithstanding it's electric choke-.

Would I trust a 6.75 litre producing 220 Hp to a Solex, points and contacts. Yes.

Is an array of SU's on an E-Type great to look at? Yes. Is it innefficient and permanently out of optimal tune, also. Would I have it in an E-type: definately yes.

Would I trust the 400 horses and 800 Newtons of my Continental R -blowing at 0.7 Bar max mine- to something without electronic spark advance control and knock detectors??? My goodness no.
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 188.29.164.224
Posted on Saturday, 23 May, 2015 - 08:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I agree Vlad.

The points ignition system is not as unreliable as some insist. The points and coil system is called the Kettering system after its inventor.

The Kettering system was in use for over 50 years by makers whose vehicles were used ad fleet vehicles such as the post office. These vehicles didn't continually break down.

Condensers are very reliable and most are replaced for the sake of it. The rest because the mechanic broke the wire off or similar.

Points need officially changing every 10k miles. With a file they will last 30k.

My ignition system is as RR intended it works fine. Only servicing on ignition is a plug change a file up of the points and dwell angle plus oil the bits up.
According to LPG experts my ignition system should misfire on LPG. It doesn't misfire.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
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Username: soviet

Post Number: 268
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Sunday, 24 May, 2015 - 07:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Lluis, I have nil experience with the Solex but am thankful to the contributors in this forum who pointed out that this carby is trash.

Thankfully, the Camargue which had a Solex arrived in Australia from New York City with a thumping great Holley on it complements of my gun toting American friends. That is one bit of un- originality I can easily live with.

I have little trouble with the triple carbs on my 420G Jaguar and its not the first one I have owned.

My experience with carbys is provided there is an inline filter, they rarely need an overhaul.

There is no doubt in my mind that EFI is far more efficient at delivering the correct measure of fuel to each cylinder but that that efficiency is not without its complexity, and its inherent difficulty in diagnosis and repair compared to carby motors.

In short, if I lived in a city (which will never happen again) and had the convenience of mobile phone coverage and reasonable towing fees I would tolerate EFI along with the annoying engine light on the dash but given where I live in the outback EFI is a dead set invitation to be placed in a position where the Camargue could have to be left unattended by the roadside when I needed to get help.

The caper of leaving such a rare car vulnerable with the distinct possibility of having it riddled with bullets from drunken cowboys along with other vandalistic behaviour of the young is simply not an option for me.

Naturally, when I go completely insane and decide to drive from Vladivostok across Siberia to Leningrad before swooping down to my town in deep southern Russian Federation EFI will be totally out of the question.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 470
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 26 May, 2015 - 04:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am not sure the Solex carb is rubbish. From what I have heard, they are great carbs BUT...... they have mostly fallen prey to knuckleheads who have overtightened the 4 nuts that secure them to the manifold causing the flimsy cast body of the carb to deform permanently. I was lucky enough to find a brand new solex for a friend's 77 Corniche and when the new carb was fitted using finger tight (plus gnat's fart torque) the car ran like a dream. The transformation of the car was amazing. That small deflection at the base of the carb is enough to allow air to flow from under the carb disrupting its operation.
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.121.120
Posted on Tuesday, 26 May, 2015 - 05:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have filed many a carb flange because of over torturing the nuts.
solex carbs are ok. But some mis understand how fixed jet carbs work.

The adjustments are for idle only the mixture can only be altered by changing jets.
However RR would have got the mixture right. So no worries.

I find the twin su carbs simpler.

Both are good set ups.

Jets do wear at high miles. No doubt the jets fitted by RR were chosen with a thought to fuel economy. These could be say 3% bigger for power rather than mpg.
But this is for a rolling road.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3208
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 27 May, 2015 - 12:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP


quote:

I am not sure the Solex carb is rubbish. From what I have heard, they are great carbs BUT...... they have mostly fallen prey to knuckleheads who have overtightened the 4 nuts that secure them to the manifold




The Solex 4A1 is not a really bad piece of kit. Just inadequate. It is not an acceptable device, and is certainly an inferior one compared to Holley etc but they are all obsolete in any case. SU lives on with surprising longevity. The 4A1 is just too old to service anymore. It did its job on the ancient Mercedes-Benz cars pre-injection for years under protest but is a finished item (google Mercedes-Benz Solex 4A1 to see the disgust). Low-mileage Corniche and Camargue, where its heat cycle is once per tripm, also survived for a while. On a pressure-cooker Turbo R it cycles every push of the throttle and does maybe 10,000 times the duty. Curtains long ado.

The 4A1 has been a spent device on the old Benz motors for years, and on our cars they are on borrowed time tp say the least. The last available new from Crewe was $6,200 but that one was the very last available. I bought two good secondhand from parted Benz cars last month as spares for friends’ pressure-cooker Turbo Rs for less than $1,000. The hope is that the cores are still of value to replace the fatigued housings on those cars. So far. only the float and chamber have been of use.

RT.
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Bob of Dorset
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Posted From: 188.29.164.117
Posted on Wednesday, 27 May, 2015 - 06:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

6200 bucks Gulp.
Holley or an SU kit from Flying Bits.

Or K jectronic. Which is hydraulic/mechanical.

Or mega squirt.

All the options cost less than 6200 bucks. The cheapest is Holley. £300.

I like the 4 barrel holley. It's a robust carb and parts are cheap and plentiful.

For side draught fixed jet. Weber.
I have tuned a few twins and they set up easy in 5 mins if not something is wrong.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Grand Master
Username: lluís

Post Number: 361
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Thursday, 28 May, 2015 - 06:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Maybe someone willing to modernize the V8's EMS will read this one day... in my humble opinion, Megasquirt (as popular as it is) is at the point of writing this quite inferior to other products in the market, like Typhoon from Specialist Components...

I would love, one day, to exchange the M3.3 in my Continental and put a state of the art Typhoon 2.0 with integrated boost control.

In case one of you guys try, please keep me posted.

Best regards,

Lluís
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 471
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 28 May, 2015 - 07:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

For the not so bright ones amongst us - can someone explain what megasquirt and typhoon are?
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Bill Coburn
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Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1566
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 28 May, 2015 - 09:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Omar I didn't want to ask. A local friend has an '86 Turbo with a 4A1 in the lunch box which sits on top of the engine. The owner called me to take the car (please be aware that I am a hobbiest - not a mechanic) as it seemed that the car was flooding. I attended his offices and went for a drive and fortunately when within a kilometre of the underground garage, the old girl decided to flood. I just made it to the top of the drive into the garage and it died. Trundling was the order of the day. Fortunately I had some tools with me and was able to remove the lid of the lunch box. There was an inch deep pool of fuel staring at me. It hadn't flooded it had drowned.

I eventually fixed that problem with a new fuel needle the jet was not replaceable! But the dear old thing - it has done little mileage and well looked after despite consumption of 5-8 miles per gallon. The other happy feature of these cars was a tendency if they got into a sulking mood, to snap the nose off their crankshaft. Apart from these foibles they were great fun!
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Robert Noel Reddington
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Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 28 May, 2015 - 09:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Typhoon and Mega Squirt are state of the art aftermarket fuel injection systems.

I have not seen Typhoon stuff.
Mega Squirt supply throttle bodies, programable ECUs, fuel manifolds and the wiring plugs. The fuel pumps, injectors, and sensors used are Bosch. The ecu can be ordered in kit form.

Incidently, sequential injection is not really any better than batch injection. Because when the engine rpm and load goes up the injector ends up open on a closed inlet valve.

With V8 batch injection the injectors fire in pairs. This means 4 injector drivers instead of 8.

To set up these systems. Load software on to lap top and connect to USB port on the ecu. The ecu has a factory guess as to settings. The software fine tunes the default settings.

Also mega squirt automatically senses nitrous oxide and delivers the extra fuel via the normal injectors. Providing the injectors are big enough.
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 408
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, 28 May, 2015 - 09:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Aftermarket fuel injection systems which can be added to cars.
On reflection I sort of agree with Jean Pierre: get one and enjoy it: deal with whatever problems crop up. You have realistic expectations and if you have the means to repair and maintain it, it will be a great experience. After all, this is not quite the 'family car on a budget' forum.
I'd like to drive one, but I don't want one. Yet.
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Richard Treacy
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Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3209
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 28 May, 2015 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Robert,

That is all relatively easy stuff for naturally-aspirated motors. You would probably get away with 5 hours on a dynotuner at $500 an hour to finish the job.

Forced-induction engines with carburettors at atmospheric-pressure, that means at the input to the supercharger or turbochgarger, are also simple to fit in the same manner but they are crude, rather compromised and extinct. On the 4 ½ L WOs they simply put the supercharger between the carburettors and the induction manifold, as did DIY Cortina owners in the 1960s, and there was no drama but little finesse. Simply choose a turbo small enough not to break the pistons and carburettors with sufficient CF/M and off you went in those days. Those systems cannot use a wastegate – otherwise unburned fuel would be dumped to the atmosphere or sent to the exhaust with spectacular results.

It all falls apart with Pressure Cooker turbocharged carburettors (early Turbo R) and injected turbo motors. Those motors cannot use the early methods as a wastegate is required to optimise and to protect the system. That requires more system control, with as minimum fuel pressure boost and mixture enrichment to compensate for the air density increase under boost conditions. To finish it off, there is the need for just a few other bits (knock sensore, APS, APT, BPT etc etc), a bespoke ECU and a whole bunch of software. How many hours that would be required on a dynotuner is open to speculation. It makes the task of rendering the motor effective at least a hundred times more difficult than a change of aspiration system on a naturally-aspirated motor. A very brave person would be re-engineering the fuel systems for these forced-onduction motors.

RT.
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Grand Master
Username: lluís

Post Number: 362
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Thursday, 28 May, 2015 - 11:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My apologies. Please take a look at this, this is typhoon: http://twinkam.co.uk/epages/191f6b26-60bf-483c-b021-755a0c9099c1.sf/en_GB/?ViewAction=View&ObjectPath=/Shops/191f6b26-60bf-483c-b021-755a0c9099c1/Categories/7/19&PageSize=48&Page=1

I guess it's self explanatory: you take a classic engine and leave the moving parts in place. Then you can add modern sensors (knock, wide-band lambda for the O2 in the exhaust, boost, ignition, etc...) and an ECU that connects to (more or less) a single wire system by an ISO CAN-BUS standard (signal) to all of these sensors.

You then basically download a patter programme that gets the engine idling and you start configuring the sensors one by one, then by batches then at the end all together on a rolling road.

For the record, on a 1380 16V Mini engine (motorbike head) it took two hours of dyno to get 138.5 bhp at the gearbox shaft, that's 100 bhp per liter. Several months of tweaking though to get perfect emmissions and cold-warm starting.

Fact is, that these ecus have a lot more memory and can have much finer mapping grids that what ever was available in the 1990,s. Hence my curiosity.

When I collected by engine (in Specialist Components, who manufacture the Typhoon system) there was a Hong-Kong custumer that had bough a Twin Turbo Blackpool engine for a SUFACON Continental R. This engine had been for sale at 5500 gbp for some time froma reputed RR/B specilist without ECU. They were aiming at 600bhp and 1100 Nm... from the original 450-s and 900-s. which is not a bad improvement.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1229
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 27 June, 2017 - 04:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear All,
Can I revisit this thread?
Goodwood Phantoms are now really cheap...
$100,000 buys you a 2004 car plus enough money left over to tax and insure it.....

So what do the RR gurus on this forum think?
If I bought one and it went wrong - how will I be able to fix it? and where will I be able to buy parts for it without first resorting to prostitution?
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Brian Crump
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Username: brian_crump

Post Number: 164
Registered: 2-2007
Posted on Tuesday, 27 June, 2017 - 06:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

At the release of Wraith I asked a guru from R-RMC about the provision of spares. He assured me that they planned spares to be available for 40 years - if this is so then Omar you could be safe. Do I believe the claim of 40 years? That is an interesting question.
Personally I would buy a Hyundai because it comes with a real spare wheel ...
Regards,
Brian
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1592
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 27 June, 2017 - 09:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar,

I would make the jump also if I could.

Someone had to do it with the Shadow, which back in the day was the same head f**k that you are describing and rightly so worried about.

It is pioneers like you, that will set these modern cars on track for future perpetuity.

You know you want one, but of course worried about the jump.

I can assure you that everyone here, would be right behind you with anything and everything at their disposal to help if things go wrong.

Of course find something with a good history and maintenance record and as Paul York states correctly, sometimes a full blown dealers service record is not that flash, but a dealer that can be trusted and spoken to or even visited would be fantastic.

Above all, I would not buy one at auction, as we all know, they end up at auctions for very good reasons, that of course are bad reasons.

I would like to think all of us here would help, assist and be interested in any car that is of interest to you, I am sure we would all be able to dig into its past or history, or know someone that can.

I am looking forward to your list of prospects.

Good luck my friend.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1230
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 28 June, 2017 - 03:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for your input gents.
here is a little exercise.
let us see what prices the following sell for today (for a 2004 Rolls-Royce Phantom)
1 Alternator
2 One Coil
3 Rear Tyre
4 front brake pad set
5 oil filter
6 air filter
7 one battery
8 fan belt
9 set of spark plugs
10 transmission filter

and then let us go wild and assume a failure of a component that requires replacement so let us look at:

11 fuel pump
12 A/C Evaporator
13 A/C compressor
14 one front brake calliper
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 734
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 28 June, 2017 - 04:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Great idea, Omar. One might add a front windshield to the list. A cousin is having one replaced in his late-model Bentley $3000.
I bought a car mag in Helsinki years ago. The car tests included the cost of common maintenance tasks and repair parts. I thought that was greatly beneficial, so that one understood up front what one was in store for "down the road".
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Mark Luft
Frequent User
Username: bentleyman1993

Post Number: 86
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 28 June, 2017 - 05:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

1
2 $27.79 Rock Auto
3 $658.23 Tire Rack
4 $43.79 Rock Auto
5 $12.72 Rock Auto
6 $20.89 x 2 Rock Auto
7
8 $40.57 Flying Spares
9 $5.66 x 12 Iridium Rock Auto
10
11
12
13
14
That's all I found, but only looked about 20 minuets.
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 468
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 28 June, 2017 - 06:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Randy,

3k for a windshield? The one in my Lotus is $800 and they don't exist. They make you one for $800.

Omar,

Practical. No, of course not. Practical would be a Honda accord, the blandest of transportation appliances. It uses no fuel, has the lowest level of insurance and tax, and costs peanuts to fix (if you figured out how to break it).

On the other hand get the RR. You only live once and do you seriously want to write forum entries about how your boring s-box managed to get you from point A to point B uneventfully.

You won't get much sympathy from most folks when you spin a tale of woe about how the RR tail light you cracked with a rake cost 1000 USD. But that is because we are just envious of all the other days.
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Brian Vogel
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Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2355
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 28 June, 2017 - 08:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, I'll be the contrarian, or at least partial contrarian.

For any car that's marketed as an on-road car I full well expect that it had better, at a bare minimum, be a very reliable "transportation appliance" first and foremost. If I can't rely on being able to go to the driveway or garage, turn the key, and drive away and get back without incident then it's not a car that I want.

I have been able to do that, even with SRH33576 for the most part, except when she's been "up on blocks" because I've elected to give some system or another a good going over. Her two failures to proceed in the 11 years I've owned her were the second half of the dual SU fuel pump dying on me in my driveway (at age 31) and the Christmas FTP due to the Lucas Opus ignition module dying (at age 35). I can accept this level of uncertainty (and these two incidents occurred 4 years apart) but I cannot accept it in a car that should still easily be within "daily driver" age.

BTW, my actual daily drivers are a 1989 Cadillac Sedan de Ville and a 1996 Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon. I expect both of them to be reliable for me to jump into and drive, and other than the odd incident once every 10 years or so they have been.

Nothing's perfect, but too many cars "spend more time in the shop than on the road" that shouldn't be doing so based on any reasonable expectation.

Brian, who has no idea where the Phantom would fall, but I'd hope it would be quite reliable given when it was produced and who did the engineering.
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 470
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 28 June, 2017 - 09:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,

I suspect the Phantom isn't at the bottom in terms of reliability. Especially if you include old cars which are statistically less reliable.

To keep a Phantom that reliable however one has to actually do the services on the car. To have an accord handily toast it in terms of reliability all one needs to do is purchase the Honda.

But practical, that's quite a stretch.

Not just the cost bits but all the day to day things that would be different between the two like parking, losing the keys, purchase price, etc.

For instance, I commuted 50 miles a day all spring in my 81 golf diesel which I run on whatever free "FUEL" is available and beat the living hell out of just to be slow enough not to be a road hazard. Is it reliable you bet, just clean the pre-filter when it can no longer make 60mph. Practical, well no as there is that part where if you hit anything you die.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1233
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 29 June, 2017 - 06:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I love the comments.
perhaps practical is the wrong descriptor.
how about using other words like scary..... financially damaging....... throwing good money after bad...........
I would like to think that if i owned a car that i would not need to scrap it because a component has failed and the price of that one component is 20% of the value of the whole car.
A daily used car will need regular attention to standard service items that we all know about. These items dont scare me. What scares me are things like a failed transmission....... a steering rack failure........ suspension system failure......... ecus failing....
These high ticket items may render the car worth more in parts than being fixed.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1410
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 29 June, 2017 - 07:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Made by man repaired by man besides there are plenty of accident damaged cars out there for major parts. Just have to reprogram etc to the car after fitment.
I have seen low mileage cars at what seems a very low price.
I think values are still in free fall.
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David Towers
Prolific User
Username: xtriple

Post Number: 158
Registered: 6-2010
Posted on Thursday, 29 June, 2017 - 07:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I actually saw one yesterday in Torquay, all black right down to the wheels, which were matt. It didn't look good at all sadly.

They are still very rare down here (though there did used to be one that frequented the Grand Hotel and when it was parked outside it dwarfed everything around it!)and so, having seen so few, I am still unsure about the looks. I am sure my opinion will cause worry to anying who owns, or is considering owning, one :-)
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1234
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 29 June, 2017 - 07:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If i dont see at least 6 different Rolls-Royces every single day then I have definitely been at the wrong end of town. There are so many modern Rolls-Royces in Dubai that it reminds me of when I was a teenager in London in the 70s. I use to love seeing so many Rolls-Royces in a small geographical radius.
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 735
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, 29 June, 2017 - 09:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I think I prefer a Suburban for every day and spend the rest on vintage Machines.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1235
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Friday, 30 June, 2017 - 04:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Randy,
trust me these cars are no ordinary cars. If you drive one for a whole day you will know what I mean. And once you have owned one for a day that memory will never leave you. No other car can compare - least of all a Suburban. There is a huge difference in the way they drive, feel, look handle and deliver.
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 736
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Friday, 30 June, 2017 - 05:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar as a Rolls-Royce fan and a fan of fine cars of all ages I understand. I Would like to drive one to experience it but to own one, be responsible for it and as an every day driver? No. The same expenditure can result in several older cars with increased enjoyment and no depreciation. And less impracticality. Just my opinion and the situation which makes the most of my available resources. Others' mileage may vary...
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 475
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Saturday, 01 July, 2017 - 02:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar,

I had a friend that used this theory. Remember this is no my theory ( my theory btw is "buy it") if the price of the car plus the price of a new engine is less than or equal to the average sale price of the car, buy it.

It assumes that a broken motor is the biggest expense one could rack up which might or might not be true on a RR.

So if you get it cheap enough, well you can't go crazy wrong with the deal. Plus if you actually do the recommended services like Brian, it is a well built machine and should keep proceeding.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1237
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Saturday, 01 July, 2017 - 05:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Ross,
I love these out of the box thoughts.
In fact this theory applies very much to the Shadow, Cloud and Spirit series cars.
It goes horribly wrong with the Phantoms because a whole engine is dirt cheap. Just help yourself to one out of a 7 series BMW and there you go. There are plenty BMW V12 engines for around £1500. In fact here is a complete car for beer money.....http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-BMW-760i-AUTO-6-0-V12-7-SERIES-E65-760Li-ROLLS-ROYCE-PHANTOM-N73-POWERPLANT-/152602642036?hash=item2387d38674:g:LV0AAOSwPK1ZUsjs
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1596
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Saturday, 01 July, 2017 - 09:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Holy crap!!
What was that BMW worth new?

Would be a good way to see if one likes the drivetrain??
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2597
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 01 July, 2017 - 01:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My intuition is twitching overtime on this Ebay listing, something is amiss.

A quick check on Australian availability gave the following:

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-cars-vans-utes/v12/carmake-bmw/k0c18320

https://www.carsales.com.au/car/bmw/760li/

The first car converts to GBP18,500

The second car converts to GBP10,500

Compare with the Ebay listing of GBP4,490 - I suspect serious internal problems............

*
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1239
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Saturday, 01 July, 2017 - 02:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The message was not intended to single out one car to see how cheap a v12 BMW is. It was to convey that the engines are cheap. Look up BMW v12 engines and they are all hovering around the £1500. This then makes the power plant for the Phantom affordable.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2599
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 01 July, 2017 - 05:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar,

I was just indirectly suggesting the engine in the car may have internally haemorrhaged hence the low price compared to roadworthy used versions.

I suspect the used engines on the 2nd hand market would not have been overhauled before resale.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1240
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Sunday, 02 July, 2017 - 02:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear David,
Indeed, but these engines will last forever if looked after properly. Take a look to see just how many BMW V12 engines are out there for sale.

Today I decided to actually count all the Rolls-Royces I managed to see in one day. So far at 8:30 PM (and the night is still young) I have seen 8 different Rolls-Royces on the streets. Only one was an 80/90s Corniche but the rest were all Phantoms, Ghosts and Wraiths.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1731
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 02 July, 2017 - 03:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Omar

I am watching this thread with interest. The more I read the more I'm thinking it would be viable to buy one of these cars. However, the one thing that has not been discussed so far, apart from Randy's mention of it, is depreciation. The value is likely to drop by at least 50K over the next few years. This is no problem if you intend to keep the car for a long time but I am wondering what your view is on this?

If you go ahead and buy one, and this sounds to me like an itch that has got to be scratched, then we must have a dedicated thread documenting your experiences in running a Phantom.

Don't forget to hide the frying pans.

Geoff
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1242
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Sunday, 02 July, 2017 - 04:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Geoff,
You are so right about that itch. Yes it will get scratched big time. The question is when?
I want one of these cars and I will have one. But first i need to trim my fleet down to about half. Then I will buy a Phantom and not worry about its perceived value. For me it is all about the pleasure that this car will give me. I don't have much time left on this planet so I intend to enjoy the remaining time in the best possible way.
Those of you who have not driven one of these cars - go out and hire one for a day and then see how you feel after that experience. The first hour you are driving it as if you are on eggshells. 4 hours later, you are chucking it around bends and giving it all it has got to give. The ride is smooth, the ambiance is silent and the finish is spectacular. Admitedly the car I was given only had a couple of thousand kilometers on the clock - but I dont think these cars age badly.
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 737
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Sunday, 02 July, 2017 - 09:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Now you've done it: You have me wanting one...
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Michael Carr
Experienced User
Username: carsie

Post Number: 30
Registered: 7-2016
Posted on Sunday, 02 July, 2017 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

What a fascinating thread, thank you for everyone who has thrown their hat in the ring :-)

In attempting (note the word attempting) to teach my two young lads the facts of life, I tried get them to appreciate the fact that men operate and deal in logic and that women deal in emotion

Case in point:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=814eR5K7KD8

However I now realise that I erroneously forgot to mention that when it comes to matters concerning cars, that we males beat the female variety, hands down in "non-logic" or rather, to put it in more colloquial language... "Man maths"

The itch which must be scratched, starts with a simple glance and a wandering eye....from which point forward, all logic, mention of cold hard fact, such as experience, depreciation, cost, mega squirt, roadside recovery costs et al just disappear out of the window.

Omar. My sympathies are extended (incidentally. Why so short time left on this planet? Not bad news I hope? Not wishing to invade privacy) I too am sat in this very space looking lovingly at my Shadow 11 and yet scouring the t'internet and magazines for the FHC Corniche that has so got under my skin since spying it across in the States earlier this year...sigh.

The gentleman from whom I bought my Rolls from told me that there was never a right time to buy a Rolls. The mortgage, the wife, the business, whatever, would always command premium pound logic, but he said that’s why you have to buy it.

Now either Ted was a brilliant salesman or a wise old sage. He was 75yr old last week and has a car collection of some 18 cars including a Silver Spirit, innumerable Jags, Cooper S, Merc 600, Armstrong Siddeley. I think he's the latter :-)

Years ago Omar, there was an advertisement for an Italian car called the Iso Lele.

In the UK magazines the advertisement it ran with probably one of the best marketing straplines ever, that in my opinion, ranked alongside the greats such as, "Grace, Pace and Space" and "Liquid Engineering" - it stated quite simply..

"Man's arrival is a fact - it's the way in which he arrives that is the constant source of fascination"

The auto collision yards will always have the odd Phantom smacked and offering skeletal remains to those lucky enough to have one parked in the garage - that's my man math’s logic Omar. Go figure. Go buy one...please!

Finally, I'll leave you with this

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=47&t=600072&i=0

Best

Carsie
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 610
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Sunday, 02 July, 2017 - 02:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

To each his own...
For the price of "New" Phantom, you could have had an "Old" Phantom...

Ultimate Phantom III

.
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 766
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Sunday, 02 July, 2017 - 07:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian swap the word Old for Real.

Richard.
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 479
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Sunday, 02 July, 2017 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

"Real" ... Ouch!
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Mark Herbstreit
Prolific User
Username: mark_herbstreit

Post Number: 166
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Sunday, 02 July, 2017 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Don't forget the Phantom VIII will be unveiled at the end of the month. And with the SUV Cullinan next year, you will see Phantom VII values take another hit. That Sedanca is stunning!
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1245
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Monday, 03 July, 2017 - 04:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Michael,
Time left on the planet is purely a function of working backwards from what is considered the average age of a male. I am an average male. So I have used that number and have figured out I have 19 years to go. I will therefore enjoy every one of these 19 years that I have left.
Iso Lele....... wow.... what a car mate.
Your support is really appreciated mate.

Dear Christian,
The whole objective of this exercise is to have a million buck car for beer money. We therefore are not comparing new Phantom prices in any way. That comparison is not at all the point of this discussion.
We are capitalising on market conditions today whereby something worth half a million Dollars is now available at $97,000.

In a ""man kinda way" i think a few of us here are egging each other on to make it happen. I certainly want to make it happen. Only thing stopping me now is space. When I sell some of my metal I will make way for the Phantom.
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Michael Carr
Experienced User
Username: carsie

Post Number: 31
Registered: 7-2016
Posted on Monday, 03 July, 2017 - 10:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I didn't like to pry but must confess that's good news Omar; thank goodness we're on the same page.

What you say is really interesting actually.The reason that my SS came up for sale was that the 82yr old owner scraped it along the garden post reversing it. Whilst in for repair he borrowed his friends Bentley Mulsanne and proceeded to do the same to that as well at which point he held his hands up and professed that perhaps he should retire his driving gloves.

His wife some ten years his junior, had no desire to drive the Shadow and thus the keys were relinquished.

I recall my poor old late Dad who too incurred one too many battle scars along side the flanks of his black Mk10 (perhaps excusable) but nonethless, he too said "ca suffit" and thereon handed driving to Mama.

I think about a project Corniche and wonder about the time left to drive the darn thing....

A knock at the door last week elicited an interesting conversation.

"Hi! is Carol (my darling wife- also some ten years my junior) in?" "No I'm afraid not can I help?"

"You must be Mike? - have you still got the boat?"

"I don't have a boat!" (thinks...who the bleep are you?)

"Chortle, chortle, I mean the Rolls! that's what your wife calls it isn't it?"

Oh how I laughed - not! - Well, I do happen to be of laid back disposition which perhaps bode well for a chap who happened to be so forward about not just my wife but also my cars!

Carol, my wife, does tease me about the Rolls, though secretly she really likes it but somehow I can't ever see myself being transported to Addebrookes Hospital complete with ventilator to see my Consultant with SWIMBO at the wheel.

I have to resign myself to the fact perhaps that like Papa before me and the previous custodian of the Shadow, it will only be for as long as I too can stop scraping my flanks...

Maybe it's not about clearing the stable but rather enjoying whats in front of you? hows that for carpe diem?
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1597
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Monday, 03 July, 2017 - 04:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

What a great read Mike, and very entertaining.

Also so very true, and thought provoking mate.

Omar has developed a new phrase, or maybe it is even a way of life "man kinda way" love it.
I wonder if we could actually use that as an excuse????

Omar, we all support you mate

Mike's "man maths" is also a gem, and I will definitely be using that in future.

In regards to logic we blokes use all day every day UNTIL we see something we want. All I can say is How True.

I hope your sons listen to Dad Mike, if they do, they will turn out just great.
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 739
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Monday, 03 July, 2017 - 07:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"Man kinda way" = amusing.
Reading a book about Winston Churchill's personal finances. He was perpetually broke, but at a high level...
He always found a way to get what he wanted, though. He bought a new Silver Ghost and promptly bashed it up so sold it to an aunt. Fascinating book, remarkable man.
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 740
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 04 July, 2017 - 12:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Rolls-Royce: are they ever "practical"? Should they be? Is great art ever practical?
I would not ecpect one to be practical, in the sense a more predestrian everyday vehicle is. I expect it to be... a Rolls-Royce.
That said, niggling failures which seem easily avoidable with a little more effort up front, seem un-RR-like at times.
I think the question is: is a modern Rolls-Royce possible without unlimited resources or excessive expenditure?
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1599
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 04 July, 2017 - 08:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

With all their quirks, dramas, & other items to many to list, I still love them. Randy is spot on, dumb little issues that even the cheapest car would avoid, but still love them I do.

A friend of mine described his Rolls-Royce the following way.

"It's like a ticking time bomb, that will cost cubical mega dollars if it goes off, but that's a risk I am willing to take, as it gives me so much enjoyment"

Cant say I disagree with him.
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gary webb
Experienced User
Username: webbgw

Post Number: 15
Registered: 6-2014
Posted on Tuesday, 04 July, 2017 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

hi guys
a friend of mine has
phantom
98 rolls spur
98 Bentley RT
which is best to drive
he said Bentley
which is worst
phantom
WHY
too big and hopeless to park
gary
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 482
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 04 July, 2017 - 11:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar,

Don't buy this one.

https://youtu.be/78P1lieCNO0?t=57
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 741
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 05 July, 2017 - 06:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Kinda needs to be rescued...
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1601
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 05 July, 2017 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Looks like the air ride does not work either.

Can of worms that one, but hey, if the price was right, I'd rescue it
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 483
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 05 July, 2017 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick R,

Your umbrella would fit, that's a start on the rescue list.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1602
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 05 July, 2017 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

LOL, Yes it would Ross.

You cant believe how many people spot it in my boot (trunk) where I've slipped in in above the tools.

And I have used it a few times.

Its strong as.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1246
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 05 July, 2017 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have been itching to respond to these great messages but I am in Japan now and I am having to do things on a mobiles phone. Hard work in comparison to a computer.

That Phantom is good as a parts car. It would be cheaper to pay more for a better car than to get an abused vehicle that will take forever to fix.
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John Beech
Grand Master
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 409
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 05 July, 2017 - 01:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

So, Omar, what progress have you made toward ridding yourself of unwanted sheet metal? E.g. so you can fit the Phantom.

I wonder because this thread started back in May so if the answer is none, then it's blue sky. But if you have managed to sell even one, then I believe you will indeed get around to it before you depart this mortal coil.

By the way, I have a prediction; if you hold off another year or two, e.g. until when we're in the midst of having a good market correction, then I bet you can buy one for USD$50k, maybe less. And believe me pal, it's going to happen so think about what I'm saying as nearly as close to a sure thing as you can imagine.

Just hold off a little while, trust that all the signs are there. Proof? New car sales have rolled over. Auto delinquencies are up (and climbing to 2009 levels). High dollar real estate in places like New York City and the Hamptons are edging south.

Trust me pal.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1247
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 05 July, 2017 - 08:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Great words of wisdom John.
Yes I sold one car. But one is not enough. I sold the Morris Minor. I am now advertising 4 other cars. Fingers crossed.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1473
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 05 July, 2017 - 09:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I second that John has words of wisdom.

PCP.

PCP allows people who may not be able to afford a certain car the ability to buy that car NOW!.

After 3 years the debtor must pay the last bubble payment or give car ( or motorbike ) back or enter into another new vehicle. 40% rate.

These deals are being bundled together and being sold to investors like pension funds. Amongst these bundles will be defaulters and toxic debt.

Fingers crossed Omar.
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Michael Carr
Experienced User
Username: carsie

Post Number: 32
Registered: 7-2016
Posted on Thursday, 06 July, 2017 - 04:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick - that's very kind of you - thank you.

"I hope your sons listen " - they do Patrick. I'm a really lucky bloke- I've got two son's who are absolutely brilliant; my treasures for sure - mind you I think they've got their Mums brains lol!

Omar - "I am now advertising 4x other cars."...oh dear..he's committed or rather he will be shortly - be careful Omar those buckles on that white suit can get very tight! lol! (only teasing and jealous ;) )
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1248
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 06 July, 2017 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Patrick,
I have to sell at least 10 cars mate. Also cars take a long time to sell in Dubai. The timing may match John Beech's prediction of 50k Phantoms.
Omar
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1603
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Friday, 07 July, 2017 - 07:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

We all have our fingers crossed for you Omar.

We can use the Start Trek theme here.

"to boldly go where no man has gone before"

Mike,
same here, my son (26) & daughter (21) both have mums brains, so I am very happy with that, but my son is worse for his BAD habit of collecting watches like I do.
Then he gets me back into it LOL
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 484
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Friday, 07 July, 2017 - 09:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar,

Where in Japan?
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 485
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Friday, 07 July, 2017 - 09:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar,

Where in Japan are you?
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1249
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Friday, 07 July, 2017 - 02:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Right now I am in Tokyo. My first time in Japan. It is a nice place mate.
Omar
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 487
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Saturday, 08 July, 2017 - 10:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar,

Last time we were in Japan was in 2006. It was a big learning experience. We weren't in Tokyo though except on arrival and the night before leaving.

The food was crazy, my personal favorite being shrimp with a sauce of sugar, diakon radish, and seaweed. I didn't have high hopes for the dish with those ingredients, but it was fantastic.

Crack open an Asahi and toast, I'll meet it on this side of the world!

Compai!
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1250
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Saturday, 08 July, 2017 - 02:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Ross,
As you say..... A truly amazing place full of amazing experiences and wild food. You have to be pretty daring to eat some of the things on display.
I am toasting you now brother....
Omar
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 489
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Sunday, 09 July, 2017 - 11:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It's going to have to be a global time delayed espresso Omar, but raised with gusto.

To crazy places and the time to enjoy them,

Cheers!
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Michael Carr
Experienced User
Username: carsie

Post Number: 35
Registered: 7-2016
Posted on Monday, 02 October, 2017 - 08:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

and you thought I'd stopped thinking about "Omar's Dream"

This will keep you awake at night lol!

"Saw this and thought about you" as the saying goes...

Modified Phantom

Link here to full article

http://www.speedhunters.com/2017/08/phantom-magic-bye-bye-v12-hello-2jz/

Enjoy (?)
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1538
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 03 October, 2017 - 09:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Drive the hell out of it and engine clapped out in 118000 miles, shows how week the BMW unit is.
will be interesting to see the power etc when run in with the boost turned up.
Like his temporary maybe led dash gauges.
Was it Bentley that had a BMW power plant fitted in their cars that was a flop green label?
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David Towers
Prolific User
Username: xtriple

Post Number: 176
Registered: 6-2010
Posted on Wednesday, 04 October, 2017 - 01:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes indeed it was, 4.4 V8 twin turbo that was pretty universally slagged for being 'gutless', though obviously it wasn't, just feels weak compared to the good old V8 with loads of torque from zero rpm.

Along the same lines, my friend had a Range Rover with the same engine (sans turbos I think) and that ate its camchain at about 120.000 miles and cot him a fortune to get repaired.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1331
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 04 October, 2017 - 04:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This Phantom with a Toyota engine is no longer the type of car we consider on this forum. It is now a different car to what it started life as. It does not do it for me. No engine dies at that low a mileage unless it has been abused.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1539
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 04 October, 2017 - 05:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

More so in Japan with a top speed limit of 75MPH unless it had some sort of major engine malfunction common fault!
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1332
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 04 October, 2017 - 05:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Indeed Patrick - or that the car had spent many thousand hours idling (as is common in Japan).
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Jeff Cheng
Prolific User
Username: makeshift

Post Number: 104
Registered: 2-2016
Posted on Sunday, 15 October, 2017 - 04:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

http://www.speedhunters.com/2017/08/phantom-magic-bye-bye-v12-hello-2jz/

Having played with Japanese tuner cars, I can say that this would be no backyard engine swap.

I'd ballbark that at to least $15k-$20k in parts alone, before fab work. That motor is a serious piece of kit, probably able to support an easy 1200hp reliably, everyday (think upper end of street legal drag cars).

I'm not saying it's good or bad, and the interior integration could be improved, but IMO this is a 'proper' job.

My $0.02
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1568
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Sunday, 15 October, 2017 - 05:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

One thing is for sure the crappy air suspension that can fail after 30,000 miles on these cars will never handle the 1000+ BHP.

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