| Author | Message | ||
     Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Grand Master Username: lluís Post Number: 327 Registered: 8-2007 |
Dear all, From the Spirit forum, you may have seen that I carried out some substantive maintenance on my Continental R injection system. I reconditioned the hoses in the Vee-VAlley, with SAE 100R6 Fuel hose. In principle Tmax is 100 Celsius for a burst pressure of 28 Bar, very much over-specifying the 5 Bar of the fuel system. You will see next week an update on my work in the engine, but please be aware SAE100 R6 is a single ply hose, DO NOT USE IT as in my car after the first 15 Km (very happy) run, one of the hoses had already delaminated. Use therefor only SAE30R9 or R10 for use in the fuel tank. THE REST WILL SIMPLY not do. SAE 100 is in principle generic hose and fuel approved but it does not work in fuel injected (pulsed) applications. See you, Lluis | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1523 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thanks Lluis for the heads-up - as a matter of interest, do you know where this particular hose was manufactured? | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Grand Master Username: lluís Post Number: 328 Registered: 8-2007 |
Dear David, This week the lines will be again removed and OEM ones installed. I will go back to the (respected) shop and show them the marvel. Made in China? Maybe, but out of memory, no I think they were branded. More news to follow. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1524 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Lluis, It may be a one-off instance of faulty manufacture or, more worrying, after-market alternative product that has not been properly tested during manufacture for compliance with SAE standards. We have just had an instance here with a major retail and trade supplier selling imported electrical cable that was later found to not comply with Australian Standards. The supplier has had to recall all the product and the anticipated cost of replacing already installed cable is huge. Determination of responsibility for paying the cost of replacement will, no doubt, enrich a bevy of lawyers before it is resolved. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Grand Master Username: lluís Post Number: 330 Registered: 8-2007 |
To David and all, Indeed SAE100 R6 should be fuel resistant but it does not cope with the clamping pressure. I opened the pipe today with the furnisher. The hose was fine but the clamping area had delaminated. fiel was geeting though there in the interface and it ruined the hose. The matter has been reported to the importer and I will get news soon. Money back, no accident and the car is working with the OEM components. See you, Lluís | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1528 Registered: 4-2003 |
This is a real concern; whilst your use was a high-pressure application, low-pressure systems would probably have the same delamination problem but it would take longer to become evident. I would like to know why this problem was not detected in the testing for SAE certification. In both cases, an "under-bonnet" fire could have been a serious future problem if you had not discovered and reported your experience. It will be interesting to see if the product involved is subject to a recall on safety grounds; I would be reporting your experience to your vehicle registration authorities in case the importer does not do this of their own volition. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Frequent User Username: soviet Post Number: 99 Registered: 2-2013 |
Do you mean something like this David A ghost in Rostov on Don, Russian Federation.  | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1530 Registered: 4-2003 |
Interesting location for a fire - appears to have been at the front of the engine. I haven't seen inside the engine bay of a Ghost to know where the fuel system components are located. The destruction of the front body work is telling - was it aluminium alloy or non-metallic polymers? | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Frequent User Username: soviet Post Number: 100 Registered: 2-2013 |
Well David, I would say it was aluminium for the front mudguards/fenders and possibly a lot of plastic on the front bumper bar. But just look at the position of the grill, hootnanny, but where is the lady, did she get melted and fall through the whole, or was she stolen by some young lout silly enough to tamper with Russian businessman's car. Now if you could buy this wreck for $500USD and then locate another ghost where the rear end of the car was run over by a Russian tank, with maybe 10 crates of vodka you could employ some local lads to made one good ghost out of two. Naturally, even though the Aussie car manufacturing business with all the Customs protection its got for decades is in the mode of being permanently croaked, you still would have trouble registering a late model LHD ghost though strange things do happen in Darwin and other assorted places, like Pine Gap | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Grand Master Username: lluís Post Number: 331 Registered: 8-2007 |
Dear Dave and Vladimir, The problem is that fuel systems are critical and we have learnt to treat them for what they are: I used SAE 100 R6, general purpose hose, explicitly for CH and oils, over-dimensioned and over-specified on paper. BUT it's not specific for fuel injection systems. Whilst many report that you can use it without problems it just showed that you can use it without problems in systems where the single-layer reinforcement does not pose a problem. This means CLAMPLING may delaminate the rubber and this is why you should not use it in fuel injection systems but rather the right, multi-layer reinforced SAE30-R9, which admittedly has a lower burst specification. Lesson learnt. Also, do not trust the good judgement of experts in a hydraulics shop. I am ashamed as I designed fuel systems for rockets in a previous life, it's just that I did not check the precise meaning of the specs. single layer should have get all of my bells ringing. Also I have used SAE100 R6 with full success in my racing Mini, but there the injection system does not use what so ever any claimps, it's just usual screw hoses working rather cold at 3.5 bar. The middle of the Vee in the engine is a tough place to live I guess. And it's not just the hoses, I started with an o-ring leak and indeed the o-rings were shot. The problem is trusting the specification and after all you supplier. Lluís | ||
| Bob UK. Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.120.140 |
This is why I bang on about using correct pipes etc. Using the wrong stuff often is no cheaper to buy. Probably the most expensive type used on cars is probably Ł10 a metre and none are that long. I am very much buy proper stuff fit and forget for 20 years. Some seem to like to find the wrong stuff to make the car unreliable and fit some junk like bike inner tubes Unfortunately despite the of best efforts this job has gone wrong due to faulty bits maybe just think how much more complicated it can get by using the wrong stuff. This doesn't quite read right because I have dementia. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1541 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Bob, Your message comes through in what you have written - please do not worry about how future posts read as I can always edit any irregularities if needed. Remember the ancient Chinese proverb "A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step" will be very relevant in the immediate future. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Grand Master Username: lluís Post Number: 340 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi, Indeed but the issue Bob is knowing what is right. I was looking for over-dimensioned fuel hose and bought what was on paper over dimensioned... But was not aware of other complexities, such as the structural need for multi-layer rubber for clamping applications. Damm, I used the same hose in a super-high pressure applications (7.5 for injection) in a racing Cooper. But the clamps were different. So yes Bob, you are right, but it's not always easy to know the exact specification. Cost no object. The job did not go wrong by any means, on the opposite, it has been beatifully finished. But indeed the intake had to come off again. Lluís | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 932 Registered: 9-2004 |
The Ghost fire above IMO was caused by a strut air bag failure, a small air leak causing the compressor to run continuly overheating and burning out. [fuse not letting go] If compressor runs more often than usual check it out Replacement strut bag kits are availible. Bob sorry to hear about you illness [dementia] don't worry I have had it for years, good and bad days. | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.120.29 |
This is just bad luck because you did the research and didn't fit rubbish. It should have been fine. Maybe heat caused the problem. I get problems sometimes with stuff despite using correct stuff. I am not criticising your efforts. It appears that getting picky is a typical dementia symptom. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1544 Registered: 4-2003 |
"I am not criticising your efforts. It appears that getting picky is a typical dementia symptom." Bob, this is a compulsory part of ageing as your past experience and knowledge increases your ability to hone in on deficiencies and quickly recognise "baffle gab" and "bovine excreta"  . | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Grand Master Username: lluís Post Number: 344 Registered: 8-2007 |
Bob, you are not being picky, don't worry. My annoyance is that "despite trying to fit the best components (after-market), you can get in trouble" and certainly not that you were getting picky. No worries, please. But then, OEM sometimes also raises my eyebrows. I will give you an example on what I want to say, off topic: I am considering a front-of-engine maintenance. With foam gasket and cover gaskets replacements (?). The more I look at it, the sillier I find using paper-gasket as OEM and the standard porous foam gasket. Paper and cork gaskets just sweep. Would you (any of you) just go "original-is-best"? Or should I seal it with high temperature oil resistant silicone. all front joints. In other words: Cost no object, ho do I determine the best option? I would really appreciate your opinion as I am about to start the job. -Posted separately, Moderator, should I post the foam seal replacement in the general discussion, as it concerns many models?- Lluís | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 764 Registered: 1-2008 |
A couple of days before doing my one and only wedding I found that some kind person had attempted to lower the rear weight of my Shadow by draining off some of the fuel via a severed fuel line. Fortunately the tank level was so low that it wouldn't just drain out, plus he hadn't taken into account that the line was a stainless steel armoured version and he'd apparently only brought a junior hacksaw to do the job. When I went to fill up the flow of escaping fuel was immediately apparent to a nice helpful chap in another car. I quickly drove home (exactly one mile) and parked up where the flow stopped with the loss of about a gallon. An hour later and a few quid lighter I had a replacement fitted and never had to worry about it since. I can't recall the exact size, but it must have been around the 5-6mm ID mark. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1545 Registered: 4-2003 |
"I would really appreciate your opinion as I am about to start the job. -Posted separately, Moderator, should I post the foam seal replacement in the general discussion, as it concerns many models?" In a word - Yes. If your car is a daily driver and not a Concours entrant, I would be using the formed-in-place RTV silicon sealant. If Concours participation is possible then you need to check whether use of the RTV sealant results in an automatic points deduction during judging or is an approved substitute for the original seal. | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.120.203 |
RTV is excellent stuff and the oem gasket can be omitted. I run a bead then fit the cover or whatever but don't clamp up. 5 mins then clamp. This gives a thicker gasket. Wynns make a self propelled one in black which is good plus being black it doesn't show out. Also works well with O rings. works well with the gasket as well. I would not use on dot. LHM ok. Is RTV ok with DOT?. (Message approved by david_gore) |
