| Author | Message | ||
     Graham Waddingham Yet to post message Username: graycad Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2013 |
Hi All. I am new to this forum and to the world of the Rolls Royce. I am an avid 1950's Cadillac Collector and Dealer from Victoria. The reason I am writing is, I have just bought a very nice '61 Rolls Royce from a Collector who I have purchased Cadillac's off in the past. I haven't been interested in RR's until this one caught my eye. I was hoping to get some Idea of its value. If anyone could help, I would appreciate that. I know values are heavily dependent on condition etc. But a ball park value would be nice. I have had a look around and asking prices vary dramatically. A bit about the car: 1961 Silver Cloud Countryman by Harold Radford. It has traveled a bit over 60,000 miles from new. It is a Right Hand Drive Car and spent much of its life in England. It was moved to California in the mid 80's where it now resides. The Car was re-painted nearly 25 years ago and still looks fantastic. It has just had a major service and has always been well maintained. I trust the seller as he is a friend and the cars I have from his collection are very nice. He has always been straight forward with me so I am hoping this car will be as nice as the Cadillac's I have bought in the past. I hope it will be as nice as it looks and is reported to be. Kind regards, Graham. | ||
| Graham Waddingham New User Username: graycad Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2013 |
A Few Photo's. Hope they load OK.       | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1505 Registered: 4-2003 |
Graham/ I am intirigued by the advice that it is a 'Countryman' by Harold Radford. Radford did extensive additions/alterations to the coachwork of these cars but from your photos I can see no evidence of his work. The car whilst is obviously in excellent order would appear to be a standard Cloud II which sell for $40-60K. If the car was/is a Radford the curiosity value should be somewhat more. Hope this helps. | ||
| Brian Crump Prolific User Username: brian_crump Post Number: 129 Registered: 2-2007 |
Bill, could it be that the Radford features simply don't show in these photos? Some Radfords had more changes than others. I would expect something like the following to be present http://www.ddclassics.com/stockdetails.asp?StockID=5456 It would be wise to check what inclusions this Cloud has in order to qualify as a genuine Radford. Regards, Brian | ||
| Brian Crump Prolific User Username: brian_crump Post Number: 130 Registered: 2-2007 |
I should have added the following: Go to http://www.silvercloudinternet.com/main.swf Click on Coachbuilders and then to Radford. You will see that mostly Radford conversions to a Cloud took the form of inclusions within the existing body shell in order to contain costs. Thus, a Cloud by Radford can look exactly the same as a standard Crewe Cloud from the outside. Regards, Brian | ||
| Graham Waddingham New User Username: graycad Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2013 |
Hi Bill and Brian. Thanks you for your comments. I thought it should be worth at least $50,000 as it is a nice car in general. If it were a Cadillac of that quality it should be worth at least that. I just realy like the car but it's nice to know It is somewhere in this ball park. I have a photo of the Radford plate, I will post it below. I have no reason to believe it isn't what the seller says it is but I guess we will see when it arrives in a month or so. As a pure novice with RR's I suppose I could be fooled. It is an A/C car which I believe was an option. It also has Power windows (not sure if this was standard)It also appears to have a CD player mounted under the dash. Maybe this was part of the Radford Coachwork  Was the molding below the windows down each side a standard Cloud 11 feature? Kind regards, Graham.      | ||
| Graham Waddingham New User Username: graycad Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2013 |
Thanks for the link to the Silvercloudinternet.com site Brian. That was an eye opener. I have a couple of Coachbuilt 50's Cadillacs at the moment. Both with fairly extensive body work. It is interesting to note that coachbuilders were toning down their modifications by the early 60's (probably much earlier) Kind regards, Graham. | ||
| David Smith Yet to post message Username: david_s Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2013 |
I had a serious look at a 1959 HR S1 recently and took videos and photos. The extras HR did to this particular car: Rear squabs fold down to form a bed which extends back into the boot, sunroof, extra lockable cabinets in doors, wine bottle racks built in under the tables, picnic table folding out from the boot. The car in the above photos doesn't show any of the features which show in the one I looked at. Comparing the two cars I would not have described the above car as a HR special. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1506 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well I should retire before this discussion gets serious. You are quite right Brian about detail but while I know very little about Radford's work and know of only one of these cars in this country, I did note the boot lid shape and looked as best I could at the detail to no avail. I wondered at the lack of foot rests, perhaps the seats are full lay back which was an option. The air conditioning is beautifully installed but as I have original Factory air in my S2 which is quite different, I would surprised if Harold would go to the trouble of installing a non-Factory set up. Anyway Graham it is obviously a beautifully prepared car. As to value the only example I can quote here is a similar age S2 extensively restored to comparable standards that has an asking price in the low 60's. And it is only a standard body without aircon! | ||
| Graham Waddingham New User Username: graycad Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2013 |
Thanks Guys. I guess the proof is in the pudding. When the car arrives I will take more photos and post them if there is anything unusual to add. Is there a database that I can run the VIN through to find out weather it is a Radford? I agree, I don't see any differences from standard models that are obvious. However, I don't see why the badge would have been copied and added to the car. Both Cadillacs I have from this collector are honnest, rare vehicles and in exceptional condition both well above the condition discribed before purchase. Either way, Even if it is a standard Cloud, I am happy with the car and am excited to see it in the flesh. It'd be nice if it is a radford though. | ||
| Brian Crump Prolific User Username: brian_crump Post Number: 131 Registered: 2-2007 |
It looks like the air-conditioning has been installed without sacrificing the pull out table under the fascia. That has to be a good point in my books as I dislike it when units are installed in a Cloud and that table is removed to allow the unit to fit. Regardless of it being a Radford or not, it appears to be a very nice car so please enjoy it! I have seen 2 Radfords in Sydney and one did not have any changes to the external shape of the boot but did have the pull out table and stools. Of course they may have even been added later by Radford or another person. When you have the chassis number you will be able to contact the RREC in the UK for a copy of the build sheets and that may reveal much. However, it was also known for a completed car to be taken back to Radford for inclusions at a later stage - in this case the build sheets will not show the change. Welcome to the world or Rolls-Royce where an owner becomes the detective in search of elusive information and where confirmation is sometimes a little like trying to find the Holy Grail. Make sure you join the RROCA (Victorian Branch) and you will find plenty who can advise you. Regards, Brian | ||
| John Shostrom Prolific User Username: silvawraith2 Post Number: 129 Registered: 4-2005 |
Graham The car looks to be in fine fettle, and a copy of the build sheets, available from Barbara Westlake at RREC Hunt House, will be enable you to ascertain if the car was sent to Harold Radford, and what options were specified. From the photographs, I can't tell what/if Radford special features were provided. Some customers only ordered one or two features, whilst others did the whole gamut. An excellent example is my good friend N Craig Bryant's car, LLCD 22, a Silver Cloud II long-wheelbase with a plethora of Radford options, including a full rear facia with instruments mounted below the division. As an aside, when you take delivery of the car, in five minutes you can easily reposition the interior door handles correctly, as they should be pointing down. A set of 8.20 x 15 tyres with the correct 2.5" whitewall, or blackwalls, will let the car look spot-on. Best regards JohnS Shostrom | ||
| John Shostrom Prolific User Username: silvawraith2 Post Number: 130 Registered: 4-2005 |
Also, Harold Radford retailed Rolls-Royces during this period, and even if the car doesn't have any Radford fittings, it would have had a Radford nameplate attached to the carpeted kick panel. | ||
| Graham Waddingham New User Username: graycad Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2013 |
Thanks Brian. I thought the A/C Vents looked a little out of place, I noticed it has a modern compressor on it but I guess that means it will work! The owner believed it to be a factory A/C Car but if it's not, I don't mind. It will be interesting to see if it has the pull out table and stools. Or any HR additions at all. I only have one photo of the boot area and it doesn't show much. Thanks John also. I will have a look into swapping the tyres from one of my early 50's Cadillacs with new 2 1/2's on it. The wide whites will be more correct for that era. Thanks for letting me know about the handles, I will swap them when I get the car. I will contact Barbara as soon as I get the title, hopefully tonight or tomorrow. I am very excited to see the car in person and start my investigation into its history. I know what you are saying about history searches being like finding the holy grail! I have had these adventures in the past with rare Cadillacs I have owned. Spending countless hours searching for information that doesn't seem to exist but must have at one point. Lucky we have things like clubs and the internet which make life so much easier. Looks like the car will be here mid May so I will keep you posted if I find anything more. Thanks again for all of your help. I realy do appreciate it. Kind regards, Graham.  Pic of boot. I assume this is not the correct lining. | ||
| Graham Waddingham New User Username: graycad Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2013 |
Just a quick question. I have noticed on some Cloud 2's the mirrors mounted on the front guards, others on the A-Pillar. Were they both correct? Also some have a driver and passenger side and some just a driver side. I would assume it was just an option. | ||
| Mark Herbstreit Prolific User Username: mark_herbstreit Post Number: 102 Registered: 5-2005 |
I can't recall ever seeing a Radford in Australia before and then at Flemington today this R type turned up!     | ||
| Graham Waddingham New User Username: graycad Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2013 |
Wow. Thanks Mark. Interesting car. Unfortunately I was unable to attend Flemington as I had prior commitments. I would have loved to see some RR's in the flesh to get an Idea of what mine should/shouldn't look like. It is great to see the HR plaque on that car. It appears to be similar to mine (same finish and screws) It'll be interesting to see if mine has modifications or was sold by HR. I emailed RREC to see how I could order the factory records nearly a week ago with no reply as yet. My transporter in California picked the Cloud up today and sent a few photo's. Said it was a magnificent car (he is a collector himself) Looks fantastic against this mid CA countryside! P.S. I can't upload photos as they are too big. my shipper should send photos in the next day or so (they are usually a lot smaller) I will post some when I get them. Graham. | ||
| Graham Waddingham New User Username: graycad Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2013 |
Update: We spoke to the previous owner of the cloud yesterday (Darryl). He is an older gentleman also from California. He Imported the car from England over 25 years ago. It had been restored by "P.J.Fischer Classic Automobiles" in London. He sold the car a few years later to the gentleman I purchased the car from. Darryl stated that the Radford option had something to do with the seats, but he couldn't quite remember as it was over 20 years since he had seen the car and details are getting hazy. I will ask my shipper to see if the seats fold and take some photos. Regards, Graham. | ||
| Mark Herbstreit Prolific User Username: mark_herbstreit Post Number: 103 Registered: 5-2005 |
Individual front seats came in with the Cloud III but the very last of the series II cars were so fitted. Most of the II's have a bench squab with individual backrests. This may be your answer! | ||
| Colin Silver Prolific User Username: colsilver Post Number: 150 Registered: 8-2008 |
I want this car. It looks masculine. Hilda would like to have him next to her. I can only spot one SU carb!!!!! | ||
| Chris Browne Prolific User Username: chrisb Post Number: 108 Registered: 2-2010 |
Hello Colin, The other one is hiding behind the flexible trunking on the other bank of the V8. Kind regards, Chris | ||
| John Budden Experienced User Username: johnb Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2006 |
To my knowledge there are 2 Countrymman Cloud (I) s in Australia. I have one which has most of the "enhancements" of the 39 listed in my brochure including Webasco sunroof, Rotaflare searchlight (these two make it an ideal kangaroo shooting vehicle), "camping body", rear picnic tables, and all the inside bells and whistles. This vehicle was imported in about 1965 by Sir Tom Barr-Smith after his stint as SA Consul General in London. It was bought from his estate by Eric Cheshire and featured in Marin Bennett's "Rolls royce- History of the car" where on pages 118- 119 you can see some of the additions. It was bought subsequently by Fred Engish who stored it for many years before I bought it in 1992. It is currently under resoration. Anyone who wants a copy - about ten pages with price list-of the brochure please contact me privately. | ||
| Graham Waddingham New User Username: graycad Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2013 |
Mystery Solved! Thanks Mark! You have a keen eye. I received some nice original brochures in the mail today. Most interesting is an original HR Countryman Brochure which lists the available options. My cloud has option 6: as seen in pictures below. The other brochures show the standard Clouds as having joined seat bottoms I have also noticed that the boot mat is different to other Cloud 2's. It has two long slits at the rear as opposed to the usual two longer on the outside and two short on the inside. Might just have to wait till it arrives to figure that on out. Thanks again for everyones help. I can sleep a bit easier now. I do appreciate it.       | ||
| Colin Silver Prolific User Username: colsilver Post Number: 152 Registered: 8-2008 |
You blokes are unbelievable with your research and knowledge. I hope this forum is being backed up in a few locations. It contains so much important information my sons and grandsons will need. Thanks Chris for the SU carb information. I've never looked under the bonnet of an SII or III. I'll have to go to a weekend away with the club and bring my home distilled products and have a chinwag. | ||
| Graham Waddingham Experienced User Username: graycad Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2013 |
Thanks to all. It realy is great to know that there is a permanent database for all this info and to know that my kids can access the info that everyone works hard to acumulate. Wish this was around 50 years ago. I am a keen home brewer Colin. Hopefully we can share a few of our own some day. Regards, Graham | ||
| Brian Crump Prolific User Username: brian_crump Post Number: 132 Registered: 2-2007 |
RROCA Club records show a 1956 and a 1958 Radford in existence in Australia - that only includes cars listed with the RROCA and is not necessarily a complete list. Regards, Brian Crump | ||
| Graham Waddingham Experienced User Username: graycad Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2013 |
Just a quick update. I received the records from the RREC the other week. It was originally delivered to a Major E Price Innocent of Hurst Old Farm, Ringwood, Haunts. Sold by Edwards and Co. It was delivered late February/early March 1961. There is no mention of it being sent to Harold Radford. However, Included in the documents is an invoice list. It states that on the 24th April the front seats were returned to Edwards and Co for a 50 pound credit. I believe this is when the car was sent to HR for modification.  | ||
| Graham Waddingham Experienced User Username: graycad Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2013 |
Just in case anyone is still looking: I picked up the car today and it has front seats that appear to be made by A.W Chapman. They rake and fold flat. Does anyone know weather Cloud II's or III's came standard with the Chapman seats? Either way, the car is a real stunner and very original. It still needs to pass quarantine but when I get it home I will take a few pics and post them if anyone is interested. Kind regards, Graham. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Prolific User Username: dounraey Post Number: 190 Registered: 5-2012 |
Graham Please post the pics. I am sure there is plenty of interest - I certainly would like to see them. Geoff | ||
| Graham Waddingham Experienced User Username: graycad Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2013 |
Bingo! Both seats fold down individually. Apart from that there is nothing else I can see that is Harold Radford, but then again, I know very little about these cars. I also believe the interior is original. I think the restoration work was simply a repaint. The paint is acrylic metalic and it is a bit thin in places. I have done the calculations and it appears whatever restoration work was done was in the early 80's. I also had thought the boot lining wasn't original. But that was just a boot mat covering the original carpet. Either way it is a really nice car. It's nice to finally have it here. Regards, Graham.    | ||
| Brian Crump Prolific User Username: brian_crump Post Number: 133 Registered: 2-2007 |
Congratulations and yes it does look great. Hopefully you will bring it to the 2014 Rally in the Hunter Valley. Regards, Brian | ||
| Colin Silver Prolific User Username: colsilver Post Number: 153 Registered: 8-2008 |
Magic, fold down front seats. Sleeping position. Why was I given a normal SC1. Bad father. I will speak to him. Question..... Will I do the Hunter Valley 2014? If I do, are there women looking for a single man - can my cans of beer be opened due to my weak forefinger? So many questions. Will Hilda be welcome? She is in wedding white, not original colours? I am a frightened man. | ||
| Kevin Lagden Frequent User Username: kevin Post Number: 86 Registered: 7-2009 |
Now available on Ebay http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1961-ROLLS-ROYCE-SILVER-CLOUD-II-HAROLD-RADFORD-/171059859867?pt=AU_Cars&hash=item27d3f6519b&_uhb=1 | ||
| Graham Waddingham Experienced User Username: graycad Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2013 |
Hi all. The car is available for sale. Not sure how long it will hang around but I don't mind if it is a long time! I am advertising it as is but tossing up weather to repaint the faded dark grey and fix a scrape on the LHS rear quarter. I took it to a friend who is a very talented spray painter/restorer. The cost to repair is considerable but would be worth it. If anyone would like to see the car before/if it goes they would be welcome. I work out of my private home in Beaconsfield, Vic (S.E. suburbs) and am available most times. Kind regards, Graham. |
