| Author | Message | ||
     Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Experienced User Username: soviet Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2013 |
David I wish to have a sook, a winge followed by a cry. As you may be aware I have a serious relationship going with JRH23682. Actually, I am not complaining but offering a humble suggestion that other Camargue owners may come to site and feel that there is no information here on Camargues because they are not mentioned in the purple lines of the tech gateway when in fact there is tons of info, but its disquised under the cloak of the other models. I leave it up to you and the others who put so much work into this site to decide whether the sacred word of Camargue should be included there and apologises for posting this here instead of the suggestion boxes. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1228 Registered: 4-2003 |
Vladimir, this problem equally applies to the Corniche and other limited production variants produced by Rolls-Royce Motor Cars over the years. To keep model descriptions succinct, we use the term "derivatives" to cover situations like this. We rely on enthusiasts who are aware of the era when the specialty model was manufactured seeking out the relevant Topic heading. Those who are not aware usually will come across references to these vehicles when browsing the Forum and use the "Search" facility to find more information. One problem with the Carmague [and Corniche for that matter] is that they share their heritage with more than one R-R model making allocation a matter of opinion and possible disagreement between the cognoscenti. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 266 Registered: 6-2009 |
David, I agree with the "and derivatives" philosophy and with the convention of referring to SY (Shadow and Derivatives) and SZ (Spirit/Spur and Derivatives) series cars. Your point about the Corniche and Camargue are especially salient as both moved from the SY to SZ era underpinnings with their coachwork largely unchanged. Lets not even get in to the fact that the Corniche often served as the "experimental" model that had improvements made to it before they were introduced later to the other cars. I've always found it interesting that the forum name for the SY series cars doesn't include either "SY" or "and derivatives" and took more of a laundry list approach than the corresponding forum for the SZ cars, which doesn't include SZ but does take the "and Bentley derivatives" route. Brian | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1233 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Brian, Have amended the Shadow topic header to include derivatives. What do members think about including the "SY" and "SZ" designations? My experience is most Club members rarely use these designations and use the model name when talking about the car. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 267 Registered: 6-2009 |
David, I, for one, vote for the inclusion of the SY and SZ designations. These are used quite a bit elsewhere, if not so commonly here, and when I first entered the world of cars from Crewe it took me forever to figure out (yes, at that point I was relatively shy about asking) what these two terms referred to. They're very convenient shorthand for distinguishing the cars with RR363 hydraulics from those with HSMO hydraulics. They're also extremely convenient shorthands for the entire range of cars produced in their respective eras, and there are times when something actually applies to all the "SY cars" or "SZ cars." Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Frequent User Username: dounraey Post Number: 96 Registered: 5-2012 |
Potentially the inclusion of SY and SZ could be confusing for new owners. I guess if it was included at the end of the title in brackets it would work i.e. Silver Shadows, Bentley T-Series, Silver Wraith II and Derivatives (SY) However if it was just included in the list new visitors to the site might wonder what the new model was. My vote is for non-inclusion but for the current update. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1491 Registered: 4-2003 |
I second that David. Does anyone know where the code name came from? | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Experienced User Username: soviet Post Number: 17 Registered: 2-2013 |
Crikey - what have I done now. Or more to the point what am I doing. Perhaps I should be honest and say that all my arguments, suggestions, and eccentric winges should be seen under this prejudice: for a decade I was a barrister and thus I am capable of arguing over a full stop and the word "and" itself. Although I escaped the madness of the court rooms totally regreting having ever been so looney to enter a most insane profession, you all should know that such an experience warps the mind so I won't be so insidious to put forward the Oxford dictionary's blab on the word "derivative" nor its medieval root. Nor will I even mention the word "Delta". My concern is that there were (and this is just an estimate based on the existant published contradictions) 186 RHD Camargues (JHR) made. I am concerned for their welfare and would like to know where each and every one is - this being a most futile adventure certainly. My only argument is that Camargues are an endangered species and that the transferance at high speed without any acronyms or flashy words would perhaps slightly inform the entire human species that there is a gold mine of information right here at this site. I support this argument with the feeble information that an excellent fully qualified sane practicing mechanic indeed recently told me that he thought RRs only came out with 4 doors and that if he (or to be wide minded "she" )can think that, the there could be some suitably monied person, not quite offay with such RR knowledge but intelligent enough to surf the web whilst deciding on an a purchase of a classic car and being a future potential custodian, stumble and purchase an late model Audi instead of a starving Camargue after concluding that there is no technical backup for a (pmecitw)(past most expensive car in the world)(I hate acronyms) Ahem, that being the case Corniche should also be there. Now I have to find out exactly what SY and SZ actually means. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Experienced User Username: soviet Post Number: 18 Registered: 2-2013 |
Silver Shadow I,II,Bentley T,Silver Wraith II,Corniche,Camargue --Just an idea, suggesting this is more informative, direct, simple and uncluttered. But here's, a question: was there more than six models ? Is there something lurking in the skeletons of the closests of Crewe that was released but never mentioned, like a third man or a Zil? | ||
| Geoff Wootton Frequent User Username: dounraey Post Number: 97 Registered: 5-2012 |
Phantom VI perhaps | ||
| John McGhee Experienced User Username: jam Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2012 |
I quite like the SY/SZ nomenclature, but then again I ordered personal plates for my car that read "SZ-675". I figured that only people such as your good selves would know what the hell that means, so I would only get nods from the cognescenti! | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1492 Registered: 4-2003 |
Vlad/Dear me you have obviously escaped your inoculations - it happens to all of us. We have to keep in mind that this forum is 'run' by a soul who is a very busy man with a very responsible job. He is a volunteer (read unpaid) claiming only the cost of running the service and has rather cleverly retained 'ownership' of the whole thing himself. The latter feature is because forums are magnets for graffiti otherwise known as spam. Even with these arrangements I know that the site has to be regularly 'cleaned'. All this is time which most of us don't have as spare stuff you would well appreciate. Within the last two years there have been two very energetic forums simply destroyed by rectums. The last term you with appreciate is a pseudonym but conveys the general sentiment. This forum is especially vulnerable, being open to all. You will know in the last context that this is unique in the pantheon of clubs, groups and common droolers who to varying degrees want to learn about the cars, their background, development and above all their foibles; the last so that we can keep the things going! Use of this forum does not require membership of a club or the payment of money - just enthusiasm, objective exchange and really, gratitude that such a facility has been established for us all. As to your beloved Camargue I had one on adjistment for some years and often wondered what happened to it and I have no idea how many we have in Australla or for that matter how many are owned by readers of this Forum. Since it is only the body and climate control that really separated them from the run-of-the-mill Shadow I suggest any further classification should you need it, be a personal venture. There is a man in the UK who lives breaths and probably associates most other bodily functions with the iconic Phantom III which was produced before the war in much the same volume as your car. In fact there is at least one Phantom III society and possibly more. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Experienced User Username: soviet Post Number: 20 Registered: 2-2013 |
You are right Bill, I have lost it again damn! Well it was just a mere thought anyway and not much of a thought either I see as I left out Phantom VI as Geoff pointed out. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1493 Registered: 4-2003 |
Vlad/ I was intrigued as to how many Camargues we know came to Australia. This should show up in the Federal Library in Melbourne. Meanwhile I managed to find 17 in past Club Registers. If you would like the list let me know. Addict!! PS The Phantom VI is an odd ball. I think only 2 came to Australia for Western Australia and the GG. There were a number of V's one of which is owned by the Club. The IV's never came to Australia and the predecessors were prewar and another era! | ||
| Geoff Wootton Frequent User Username: dounraey Post Number: 98 Registered: 5-2012 |
Bill, My guess is that as end users we will enter into discussion about minor administrative or design points without realising that it may be perceived as criticism, from the point of view of the moderators. So I would like to state something that is very obvious. This a very high quality forum. Quite the best I have ever seen. The thing about high levels of expertise is it makes the difficult appear easy and so invites these requests for "simple" service changes. I can imagine what the moderators private email boxes must look like on occasions; the word exasperation comes to mind. Your last entry was an interesting insight into what goes on behind the scenes. As for gratitude that such a facility has been established at all; Absolutely. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1234 Registered: 4-2003 |
Geoff, I have been a moderator on this forum for nigh on 10 years and, contrary to your expectations, my email inbox rarely receives plaintive cries or complaints from the wilderness about forum activities and I certainly have never been exasperated by requests for changes, advice and/or assistance by our members. I suspect this is directly attributable to a simple fact; our members are too busy looking after their cars and solving problems to start "nit picking", whinging/whining about trivialities and/or trying to restore fragile egos. These problems are commonplace on other forums and my belief this is because the members of these forums have nothing else to do or are suffering from relevance deprivation. My presence on this forum will only cease when I am carried away in a box or I am excommunicated by the administrator........ | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1494 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thanks Geoff/ I often recall the words of Bruce Ross a member deceased 20 years ago who was help personified. Even then we could get people having a full scale brawl over how the table napkins were folded at the annual dinner!!! His observation was 'You know these clubs were formed to enjoy our cars not to fight' This as it so happens applies to areas beyond our shores at this very moment. Sad but seemingly inevitable. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 268 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff Wootton wrote, "Potentially the inclusion of SY and SZ could be confusing for new owners. I guess if it was included at the end of the title in brackets it would work i.e. Silver Shadows, Bentley T-Series, Silver Wraith II and Derivatives (SY)" Just for the record, this is what I had envisioned. Based on my experience here, on the RROC-US discussion forums, rollsroyceforums.com, and elsewhere I can say that the use of the SY designation for Shadow and derivatives as a collectivity and SZ for the Spirit/Spur and derivatives is very common. My feeling is that parenthetical inclusion clues people in to what this means when they see terms like "SY cars" presented without further elaboration. Brian, who still tends to introduce that terminology explicitly when I use it P.S. This is not intended to be argumentative. Just a way of explaining my way of thinking. | ||
| Leho Proos Experienced User Username: lehoproos Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2006 |
Brian I think that 'and Derivatives' is close enough. It is possible that our Aussie friends don't like acronyms like SY and SZ which might lead to a table napkins situation.  Remember that this is the forum that does not allow properMC. {If Phil and/or Rueben monitor this forum, I expect that they are bemused.} Leho | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1235 Registered: 4-2003 |
Can anyone answer Bill's question earlier in this thread - how and why did SY and SZ come to be associated with the Shadows and the Spirits and Spurs? At the present time, I am inclined to believe this is a regional rather than international practice. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 269 Registered: 6-2009 |
David, I hope that Richard Treacy sees this, as I seem to recall him having the specifics regarding SY versus SZ. What I do recall is that the letters don't mean anything (as in, they are not acronyms) and that they were the official model development code designations for the Shadows/Derivatives (SY) and Spirit/Derivatives (SZ). I'm positive these designations came out of Crewe, but I can seem to trace back where I have this information from. All evidence I've seen is that it's a regional rather than international practice not to use these designations. Leho, sorry, but this shouldn't be a "table napkins situation." It's just too common a practice elsewhere, and it carries no possible trace of snobbery that some attach to Proper Motor Car. Brian | ||
| John McGhee Experienced User Username: jam Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2012 |
I have scoured the books but am not finding much joy... Could it be as simple as S standing for "Saloon" and Y standing for the alphabetic design title? This would make sense when we know that the next design after the SY was the SZ (particularly if you are one of those cheeky buggers that refer to the Silver Spirit as the Silver Shadow III). Malcolm Bobbit's books discuss the model code names for pre-production (Siam, Tibet, Burma) and sheet those home to engineer Harry Grylls who apparently had a bit of a thing for Asia, but that doesn't explain SY per se. The Halvorsen fleet boats were all named alphabetically as they came off the production line and Porsche famously fought for it's 901 numeric designation with Pugeot and, upon losing that battle settled for 911, so perhaps the answer is very simple. Or perhaps not. Are there any ex factory hands out there that might know? John | ||
| Mark Herbstreit Frequent User Username: mark_herbstreit Post Number: 100 Registered: 5-2005 |
John, Ian Rimmers book on Experimental Cars is the bible for an insiders insight into the development of the cars. To sumarise. SY was a natural progression from the Cloud III /S3 cars and was initially designated S4 but became S2500W in the engineering filing system. This in turn was abbreviated to SW and progressed to SY before production. One of my favorite books and well worth adding to your library. | ||
| John McGhee Experienced User Username: jam Post Number: 17 Registered: 10-2012 |
Mark, Thank you - a great example of why these forums work so well! I hope they weren't contemplating a 2.5 litre engine for poor old SW... I shall jump on to Amazon and search out the title you mention. I believe I could squeeze in another volume on RR&B on my bookshelf ;-) Kind regards John | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1236 Registered: 4-2003 |
I have now received a definitive answer to the origin of SY and SZ - I am waiting for permission to publish from the source to reveal all. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1237 Registered: 4-2003 |
When the question of the origin of SY and SZ arose, I knew there was one person I could rely on to know the answer from his employment at Rolls-Royce Motor Cars and involvement with the engineering development of the Shadows and other cars. Of course, I am referring to Ian Rimmer who has conducted many technical sessions on the Shadows for both the RREC and RROCA and who has been a willing advisor and much-appreciated help to me during my time as Federal Registrar for the Shadow and Derivative models. Mark Herbstreit referred to his book on the R-RMC Experimental Cars earlier in this thread and I recommend this book to everyone who is interested in the behind-the-scenes development work undertaken by the factory. Ian Rimmer has kindly consented to my publishing the following summation prepared by him and I believe this will arose considerable interest from our "model champions" for the individual models listed. Any reproduction of this information should acknowledge Ian Rimmer as the author: "SY/SZ Nomenclature These were generic codes for various models and were used within the factory at Crewe. They followed the style of codes used for Silver Cloud/Bentley S and Phantom V/VI. (ST) which was an abridged version of the engineering filing system code S2500T and had derivatives:- RT23 Silver Cloud 123 inch wheelbase RT27 Silver Cloud 127 inch wheelbase BT23 Bentley S 123 inch wheelbase BT27 Bentley S 127 inch wheelbase RT45 Phantom V/VI 145 inch wheelbase SU, SV, SW,SX were projects which did not reach production. SY (S2500Y) was the generic code for the Silver Shadow/Bentley T and derivatives:- RY19 Silver Shadow 119.5 inch wheelbase RY23 Silver Shadow 123.5 inch wheelbase BY19 Bentley T 119.5 inch wheelbase BY23 Bentley T 123.5 inch wheelbase CY19 Coachbuilt Silver Shadow/Bentley T/Corniche 119.5 inch wheelbase DY20 Camargue 120 inch wheelbase SY20A/B was the generic code for the Silver Shadow II/Silver Wraith II/T2 RY20A/B Silver Shadow II RY24A/B Silver Wraith II BY20A/B Bentley T2 SWB BY24A/B Bentley T2 LWB CY20A Corniche with auto ACU CY20A/B Corniche to SY20A/B spec. DY20A/B Camargue to SY20A/B spec CY/Z Corniche with SY front/SZ rear platform DY/Z Camargue with SY front/SZ rear platform SZ was the generic code for the SY replacement models which included Silver Spirit/ Silver Spur/ Bentley Mulsanne/ Turbo R/ Bentley Eight/ Bentley Mulsanne S/ Silver Spirit II/ Silver Spur II/ Silver Spirit III/ Silver Spur III/ Bentley Brooklands/ Silver Dawn/ Turbo RT/ Turbo S, all in both SWB and LWB, plus the following derivatives:- CZ Corniche /Corniche II/ Corniche III/ Corniche IV/ Bentley Continental with full SZ platform DZ Camargue with full SZ platform NZ Continental R/ Continental S/ Continental SC / Continental T/ Bentley Azure" Gentlemen, I await your comments and suggestions with great interest . | ||
| Brian Crump Prolific User Username: brian_crump Post Number: 124 Registered: 2-2007 |
Thank you David for finding the answer. It is satisfying to know the process behind this naming system. Regards, Brian | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Experienced User Username: soviet Post Number: 21 Registered: 2-2013 |
I rest my case in total bewilderment. Great to get such deep and algerbratic information from the factory and thanks to Ian Rimmer. I will have to come back to this as at present I have been weaving my way through various wiring diagrams (not at all nice on the eyes) trying to match one to the Camargue and I am approaching a conclusion that perhaps the early Camargues had a totally different wiring diagragm from all other models perhaps due to the fact that it was the first model to feature Automatic Airconditioning. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2780 Registered: 4-2003 |
Interesting material. That the SY and SZ denotations are at least in part valid is marked on the cars themselves. The designation SC was assigned to Rolls-Royce Motor Cars in the 1950s (C for Crewe, the home of RRM, prefixed by S for England = SC), just as other brands have their designations like BMW (B, prefixed by W for Germany, hence most BMWs have VINs starting with WB) but Crewe designated the Silver Shadow as an SY arbitrarily to differentiate it from the SC Silver Cloud. SY cars have engine numbers SY (6.3L) or SYL (Long stroke ie 6.8L), eg SYL13247 on my T-Series. SZs have the identifying Z in the chassis number like my Turbo R ScbZsotoxxxxxxxx = SZ for short. By the late 1970s when the SZ was ready for production, Crewe was obliged to issue a chassis code to the various authorities around the world, and designated it the Z. As to classifying the cars by special categories, I would be disappointed were it to be done. I may become even more unpopular when I post this, but behind the glorious appearance and incredible attention to detail, let alone its fabulous condition and relatively low mileage, my Continental R is no match for the equivalent standard SZ saloon in the way it works. This is despite a ticket price, when purchased new in 1993, of over double that of a standard Turbo R saloon (the reigning Crewe flagship until 1992) and an even greater multiple of a Silver Spirit. As was almost always the case, my Conti R was delivered new to a renowned Australian billionaire and air-freighted to Sydney as was de-rigueur for such customers. I have found the same in every model produced by Crewe apart from the R-Type Continentals - the standard saloons are more desirable once you look past the breathtaking presentation of the specials. Thank goodness under the skin the Continental R is pure SZ Turbo. Very familiar. RT. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Prolific User Username: dounraey Post Number: 104 Registered: 5-2012 |
Richard I have just been checking out photographs of the Continental R and indeed it is stunning. I don't quite understand your statement "my Continental R is no match for the equivalent standard SZ saloon in the way it works." I assumed the running gear would be basically the same? | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 276 Registered: 5-2008 |
What RT means is the Turbo R is the pinnacle and benchmark Crewe driving car! not to mention from 87' onwards has the most comfortable and supportive seating arrangement to EVER come out of the Crewe factory at that time.....I know ill get no argument from any Turbo R owner or 'Rogue' Conti R owner on this statement. Conti R of course magnificent styling and car thats for sure but yes its all Turbo R underneath the beautiful skin...... | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2781 Registered: 4-2003 |
I’m not surprised to hear from James on this one as he can compare these cars back-to-back. I too can compare my two cars (Turbo R and Conti R) 1:1. The Conti R is a wonderful machine, but functionally is does not match the Turbo R in a number of respects. Whilst the Conti R carbody is superior in its rigidity and modernity, the functionality is compromised. Like all SZs the Conti R is creaky, just a little less so than the rest. The hugely-passenger-friendly 1987+ Turbo R has the most superb and generous seats, but the Conti seat bases are too short and hence lacking in thigh support. Stupidly they don’t move far enough back. You can read all this in 1990s and 2000s road tests. There is less headroom sideways due to the narrower roofline, a similar shortcoming of the Arnage. It is noisier due to the more cocooning cabin, and rear passenger room is far too tight given the standard Turbo R platform and dimensions. Fortunately the rear centre console is removable. It looks nice but makes rear passengers feel that they have their legs in a bucket. The Conti is slightly sharper in its handling but lacks that Queen Mary feel when trundling down the Autobahn at high speed. It does accelerate slightly quicker than does a Turbo R. For what it’s worth, I give the 4L80E 4-speed electronically-controlled transmission, as found in cars from 1992, a thumbs down compared to the earlier 3L80. Yes, the Conti R is an SZ derivative thank goodness. That means there are no problems finding all mechanical spares without any difficulty. Similar shortcomings can be levelled at practically every other derivative built since 1955: Corniche drophead: heavy, slow and shocking scuttle shake. The Camargue, the true predecessor to the Conti R, has similar flaws to those of the Conti R. It is also notorious for rust compared to a Silver Shadow, and is rather heavy and slow compared to standard SYs and SZs. That’s why Kerry Packer had his Camargue turbocharged. This is not to say that the derivatives are less desirable than their standard-bodied donors: quite the reverse. It’s just fair to admit that the derivatives suffer several compromises to provide their stunning looks. Fortunately, although expensive to buy, the derivatives cost no more to maintain than the standard cars unless the bodywork goes to rot. RT. |
